California Zephyr

[Texas Zepher]

I have a photograph of the California Zephyr that has five domes up front.  So the consist is:

baggage, dome coach, dome coach, dome, dome, dome, diner, sleeper, sleeper, sleeper, dome observation.  

I cannot see the window configuration good enough but I assume the first dome coach is the women/children car, second is normal.  What would be the most probable order of the next three domes? 

add an extra coach in front 

regular dome coach, dome coach conductor space, dome dorm/lounge

or add the extra coach behind the normal set

regular dome conductor space, dome dorm/lounge, regular dome coach

or what?

[zephyr22]

A CZ with five domes in front was probably a-typical.  A typical consist would have been:

baggage, dome coach, dome coach, dome coach, dome lounge dorm, diner, sleeping cars (numbers varied, but often ran with four, dome sleeper-lounge-obs.  In later years a dome coach reconfigured from an all roomette sleeper would be ahead of the first dome car.  The number of sleepers might vary and might have included one or more foreign road sleepers. 

 The CZ consist was not set in stone and varied as to traffic, special tours and season.

[jrbernier]

  The normal configuration of domes on the CZ would have been 3 dome chair cars, a dome-lounge-dorm car, and the dome-observation car.  Either an extra CZ dome-chair car was added, or a dome car from another of the Burlington Zephyrs was added to the train.  The sleeper conversion mentioned was the 14 section sleepers that were converted to chair cars in the early 60's and normally it ran behind the baggage car and ahead of the dome-chair cars.  A typical CZ ran about 11-12 cars long.  The Burlington bought extra CZ cars in the early 50's and added them to it's general passenger pool.  The WP & D&RGW really did not have extra equipment.

Jim

[Texas Zepher]

Yes, I know this is not a normal configuration or I would not be asking the question.  In my hundreds of pictures of the California Zephyr (other than test trains of early 1949 that had from only 1 up to 8 domes in them) this is the only "production" one I've ever seen with the sixth dome.  The photo is in Gore Canyon on the D&RGW, but no date.  The photo it taken from the rear of locomotive looking back on the train.

I also noted the consist of the train, specifically so it would be known that the converted coach was not immediately behind the baggage car.  This was most likely prior to the 1960s.  Likewise there is no car between the first and second dome like most of the test trains ran, so this is most likely after 1950.

[daveklepper]

Note that the coaches converted from all-roomette sleepers were not dome cars but "flat-tops" as D&RGW termed them.   The D&RGW had two, and they frequenctly showed up on the RGZ 1971 to Amtrak's taking over the run.   They were regarded as spares, assigned when more capacity was needed.   D&RGW had four dome coaches, one diner, one dome-sleeper-obs, and one lounge-cafe-dome-dorm.  Their sleepers were sold.

[passengerfan]

Another possibility was that one dome coach had been pulled from service at either Chicago or Oakland for other than routine repair and was going from one maintenance base to the other to await its consist. I too have seeen a picture of the CZ with an extra dome coach in its consist and have spent about two hours looking for it before giving up.

Al - in - Stockton

[jimrice4449]

I would expect that the extra dome coach would have been cut in behind the baggage car for two reasons.    first, the dome/dorm/lounge would have to be adjacent to the diner for the convenience of the crew using the dorm space.   Second, the standard procedure in assigning ticket space was to start from the rear car (slleper/dome/lounge) and work forward, making the logical place for any additional cars to be at the end of the consist book (front of the train)

[Deggesty]

zephyr22

A CZ with five domes in front was probably a-typical.  A typical consist would have been:

baggage, dome coach, dome coach, dome coach, dome lounge dorm, diner, sleeping cars (numbers varied, but often ran with four, dome sleeper-lounge-obs.  In later years a dome coach reconfigured from an all roomette sleeper would be ahead of the first dome car.  The number of sleepers might vary and might have included one or more foreign road sleepers. 

 The CZ consist was not set in stone and varied as to traffic, special tours and season.

With all due respect, the Burlington did not have any all-roomette sleepers. It (with the Rio Grande and Western Pacific)  did have sixteen-section sleepers which were rebuilt, in '63 and '64, to 48 seat flattop coaches. More people preferred private rooms to open sections. I doubt that even enclosed or private sections would have satisfied the traveling public in the late fifties and early sixties.

[passengerfan]

Deggesty

zephyr22

A CZ with five domes in front was probably a-typical.  A typical consist would have been:

baggage, dome coach, dome coach, dome coach, dome lounge dorm, diner, sleeping cars (numbers varied, but often ran with four, dome sleeper-lounge-obs.  In later years a dome coach reconfigured from an all roomette sleeper would be ahead of the first dome car.  The number of sleepers might vary and might have included one or more foreign road sleepers. 

 The CZ consist was not set in stone and varied as to traffic, special tours and season.

With all due respect, the Burlington did not have any all-roomette sleepers. It (with the Rio Grande and Western Pacific)  did have sixteen-section sleepers which were rebuilt, in '63 and '64, to 48 seat flattop coaches. More people preferred private rooms to open sections. I doubt that even enclosed or private sections would have satisfied the traveling public in the late fifties and early sixties.

Even in the late 1950's the government required those traveling via train at government expense to make use of lower berths. Seems the government was far more frugal with taxpayers money than they are today. Today large numbers travelling at government expense travel first class air and stay in the finest hotels. Government travel was the sole reason the railroads held onto there Section equipped sleeping cars as long as they did.

Al - in - Stockton

[Deggesty]

passengerfan

Deggesty

zephyr22

A CZ with five domes in front was probably a-typical.  A typical consist would have been:

baggage, dome coach, dome coach, dome coach, dome lounge dorm, diner, sleeping cars (numbers varied, but often ran with four, dome sleeper-lounge-obs.  In later years a dome coach reconfigured from an all roomette sleeper would be ahead of the first dome car.  The number of sleepers might vary and might have included one or more foreign road sleepers. 

 The CZ consist was not set in stone and varied as to traffic, special tours and season.

With all due respect, the Burlington did not have any all-roomette sleepers. It (with the Rio Grande and Western Pacific)  did have sixteen-section sleepers which were rebuilt, in '63 and '64, to 48 seat flattop coaches. More people preferred private rooms to open sections. I doubt that even enclosed or private sections would have satisfied the traveling public in the late fifties and early sixties.

Even in the late 1950's the government required those traveling via train at government expense to make use of lower berths. Seems the government was far more frugal with taxpayers money than they are today. Today large numbers travelling at government expense travel first class air and stay in the finest hotels. Government travel was the sole reason the railroads held onto there Section equipped sleeping cars as long as they did.

Al - in - Stockton

That's right, Al. This requirement had slipped my mind when I wrote the above. Indeed, the four cars (built for the C&O) that were delivered to the Rio Grande as 10-6 sleepers (would you call them 5-6-5 since there were five roomettes at each end?) for the Prospector in 1950 were rebuilt as 5 section, 5 roomette, 6 double bedrooms sleepers between December 1950 and March 1951.

[daveklepper]

Sorry about the error, yes, they were section sleepers that were rebuilt into flat-top coaches, not all roomette cars.   Thank you for the correction!

[wanswheel]

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=172842

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=179140

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=212969

http://photoswest.org/photos/11006251/11006354.jpg

http://photoswest.org/photos/11006251/11006357.jpg

http://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/collections/cushman/full/P06400.jpg

http://texashistory.unt.edu/data/SUM2007/MARD/box_03/upl-meta-pth-28701/0243.jpg

[riogrande5761]

jrbernier

  The normal configuration of domes on the CZ would have been 3 dome chair cars, a dome-lounge-dorm car, and the dome-observation car.  Either an extra CZ dome-chair car was added, or a dome car from another of the Burlington Zephyrs was added to the train.  The sleeper conversion mentioned was the 14 section sleepers that were converted to chair cars in the early 60's and normally it ran behind the baggage car and ahead of the dome-chair cars.  A typical CZ ran about 11-12 cars long.  The Burlington bought extra CZ cars in the early 50's and added them to it's general passenger pool.  The WP & D&RGW really did not have extra equipment.

Jim

Firstly, the extra dome-coach may have been added as a balancing of cars across the system as some in latter years accumulated on points between Chicago and Oakland due to seasonal fluctuations.  I have a photo showing at least 3 dome-coaches at the front of a long CZ on the Front Range of the Rockies, in front of the normal 12 or so cars.  My guess is those were being forwarded for staging to supply them to CZ train sets which had been running with fewer than the normal compliment during the winter months.  That CZ must have been 17 or 18 cars long - the photo is at home.

The sleepers that were converted with 16 section sleepers, not 14 section sleepers.  They were pulled from CZ service around 1958 according to the CZ Virtual Museum website and rebuilt into 48 seat coaches in 1963 and 64.

I can't speak to the WP, but the D&RGW did have extra passenger equipment at various points as they closed down service of such trains as the Mountaineer (1951) and at least one other short passenger train in the 1950's, then cut back service on the Royal Gorge in the late 50's and early 60's.  Certainly in the 1960's there are MANY photo's showing D&RGW Pullman Standard passenger cars at the head end of the California Zephyr - usually hosting specials but in some rare cases, to build 2nd sections of the CZ when there was high over flow demand.

[travelingengineer]

Regarding the California Zephyr, but on a just-happening event this Friday morning the 26th of August: Its derailment in southwest Nebraska as a result, apparently, of striking a piece of equipment being used to dismantle a grain elevator. Thus far, two locomotives and three cars are derailed, with some passengers hospitalized and others awaiting further transporation from the area.

[lvt1000]

 "Today large numbers travelling at government expense travel first class air and stay in the finest hotels."

Al - in - Stockton

 

And you know this as a fact or simply a whisper from another "knowledgeable" source? The last government expensed trip I took was on a KC135 flying behind a number of wounded soldiers and leaving at 3am after I spent 15 hours waiting for the flight in an old building near the flightline. During that two week trip I slept on a bench in an air terminal one night. Under more civilized circumstances a government purchased ticket gets you a seat in the last row of an airliner and a budget hotel. If you want to reminisce about the old days and bemoan life today then get your facts right! There are accurate sources for the past and present.