Hello all
One of the things that from time to time crosses my mind is the fact that some of the ancient streamlined trains seemed to be really fast. I know of some examples - Santa Fe, Milwaukee, ACL - wich in some cases and at least at a given time had their trains running at 100 mph, but after browsing thru an edition of the old 'Official Guide', I still get to have this doubt. Would all this companies be having trains doing all this speed ? if it was the case, wich speeds would they reach ? Was there any form of cab signal installed ? I know that the cab signal, 80 mph or more rule is quite old.
Those trains operated with ATS or ATC in the districts where they reached 100 mph and more. AT&SF, CB&Q, ACL, CRI&P, CMSTP&P, UP and several others that don't come immediatly to mind at 4:30 AM all operated trains with the ATS installed. Following WW II several roads removed the ATC equipment claiming it was to expensive for the benefit of 100 mph operation. But UP and AT&SF kept it over there long routes to the west coast. As did the CB&Q for most of their routes. Now there is talk about to become law that all mainline tracks be equipped with PTC and even better system than ATC.
Al - in - Stockton
Thanks for the answer ;
I remember seeing Illinois Central schedules in wich I saw times between statios that only trains with operational speeds of 100 mph could reach, for example, 39 minutes allowed to one of their crack trains (cannot remember if it was the Panama Ltd or the City of New Orleans) for the 54 miles between Effingham and Centralia, Ill. I've also read that ACL, under the presidence of Champion McDowell, developed some trackwork in their mainlines, wich permitted the operation of trains at 100 mph, between 1954 and 1957, with this value being reduced to 90, due to the excessive cost of maintaining the track for such high speeds. I guess this was a factor that weighted too much in the compani's final balance sheet.
I know that PTC and other systems are the future, but it also has an exteme cost, of not only maintenance, but also for its development.
Now one cannot forget that whith a diferent track condition from nowadays, it was quite a feat keeping these sort of operations.
But there's still one company that is a mistery to me. Milwaukee Rd, Did they operated at 100 right up untill the end with their Hiawathas ?
Mario_v wrote: I know that the cab signal, 80 mph or more rule is quite old.
I know that the cab signal, 80 mph or more rule is quite old.
I guess "old" depends on your prospective. I remember before the 89 mph limit was imposed. And I am sure I experianced trains going faster than that on the AT&SF, CB&Q and IC although I don't know if they had ATC in the area or not.
Once after it was imposed, I was riding the Denver Zephyr west of the Mississippi and the brakeman told me that until recently, the track had been rated at 100 mph. I do know that CB&Q had ATC (even on steam), but probably not in that area since we were observing the 89 mph limit at the time.
At the crossing at Rondout, IL the Milwaukee Road had a famous sign that said "SLOW TO 90 MPH".
It is interesting that it takes Amtrak a couple of hours longer to go from the Twin Cities to Chicago than the Milwaukee, Burlington, Chicago and NorthWestern and others did in the late 1930's - in some cases, with trains pulled by steam engines.
wjstix wrote: At the crossing at Rondout, IL the Milwaukee Road had a famous sign that said "SLOW TO 90 MPH". It is interesting that it takes Amtrak a couple of hours longer to go from the Twin Cities to Chicago than the Milwaukee, Burlington, Chicago and NorthWestern and others did in the late 1930's - in some cases, with trains pulled by steam engines.
passengerfan wrote:Following WW II several roads removed the ATC equipment claiming it was to expensive for the benefit of 100 mph operation. But UP and AT&SF kept it over there long routes to the west coast.
Has anyone ever found an "89-mph rule"?
The Southern was another road which had quite a bit of ATS--Salisbury to Birmingham, Bristol to Memphis, Chattanooga to New Orleans, Salisbury to Morristown, and some other stretches that included Russellville to Haleyville in Alabama (used by the IC's City of Miami). Some of these lines could not have supported 80 mph because the topography did not permit it (79, not 89 mph, was the maximum allowed by the ICC if ABS was the best signal protection), and 80 mph is the fastest speed that I ever saw allowed in a Southern employee timetable. In the late sixties or early seventies the Southern asked permission to remove their ATS installation, citing the fact that 80 was the fastest speed allowed anywhere on its system, and there was not much difference between the maximum allowed by the ICC without ATS and the maximum allowed anywhere by the railroad. There was an incident in which the ATS coil on a locomotive came loose and took a switchstand out, and the next train was derailed at that switch. Of course, the coil should not have come loose.
Even without ATS, the IC ran the City of New Orleans fast--I rode the engine from Memphis to Grenada in the summer of 1965, and we had to run at 90 mph to maintain the schedule, with only ABS.
When the City of New Orleans was inaugurated, it was a sixteen hour train from terminal to terminal; at least an hour was added when the ICC promulgated its dictum concerning speed and signals.
I had another fast ride on the IC, from Hazlehurst to Jackson on the Louisiane; I timed at least one mile in 35 seconds (two E9's, RPO, baggage, and three coaches) on one trip.
The ACL line from Waycross to Montgomery was dark, but that did not keep the engineers from running fast, even into the Amtrak era. In 1974, I was riding the Floridian from Chicago to Fort Lauderdale, and I woke in the night to the sound of fast running. I had no way to check the speed, but I do know that we made a good bit of time up between Dothan and Waycross.
Johnny
Mario_v wrote:Milwaukee Rd, Did they operated at 100 right up untill the end with their Hiawathas ?
SFe 100-mph timetable limits ended around 1958; UP never had anything faster than 90 in their timetables; CB&Q never showed 100 mph (95, wasn't it? Or just 90?). Like you said, ACL had 100 mph for a couple of years. I'd guess in 1960 IC was the only railroad in the US with a timetable limit of 100 mph.
Milwaukee Road's limit between Chicago and Milwaukee was 90 mph in 1960; no idea when they dropped the 100 limit. Scribbins says they dropped to 79 in 1968.
IC's timetable still shows 100 mph in 1972; wonder if it was realistic then?
The Milwaukee has cab signaling between Chicago and Hastings, MN. They planned to remove parts of the system in 1968(cost) and the FP45's were delivered without the cab signal gear. My understanding is that the system was not removed right away, and thus we saw the FP45's in the trailing position many times on Hiawathas. Usually a FP7 would lead the big yellow FP45. Speed limits are a government rule since the early 50's. Anything over 79 mph required some type of cab signaling or ATC/ATC. The Milwaukee 'fast tracks' were the C&M(Milw-Chicago) and Toma - Portage.
The CB&Q had no cab signaling between Aurora and the Twin Cities. The government decree limited the Twin Zephyrs to 79 mph. Even with these restrictions, the schedules usually were run off between 6-7 hours.
The current Amtrak schedule is a little over 8 hours. Other than some marketing hype, raising the speeds to allow 6 hour schedules would do little except burn more fuel. To compete in the Twin Cities-Chicago business trade, a high speed train(3 hours) would be needed.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Years ago Trains Magazine used to publish an annual survey of the fastest 10 or so passenger runs in the US based on scheduled times between station stops as published in the railroads timecards. For years the IC's City of New Orleans topped the list with a dash of 110+ mph. I remember reading the survey for 1948 or '49 and if I recall correctly the CNO's carded time for the 71 miles between Champaign and Effingham (with an intermediate stop at Mattoon) equated to a speed of 114 mph. I believe the IC had ATS or in-cab signaling (or maybe even both) over that stretch of track. There was a speedometer in the observation car and I remember seeing it pegged at its upper limit of 115 mph for much of that run. On one trip I was chatting with the flagman about our speed and he pulled out his watch and timed us at 30 sec. (120 mph) between mileposts. Perhaps someone who has issues from that time period will look up one of those surveys and share them with us. If not maybe Bergie can look through the archives and post a reply providing that info.
Mark
Wow that's a lot of speed, and quite a feat in those times, but possible however, if the track was kept under immaculate condition (especially if it was jointed rail, wich might be the most probable case), and if E units were acquired with a gear ratio allowing 117 mph. I know that was a 'catalogue' option for such engines. But it should have been a ride more or less rough.
I also remember seeing a FEC timetable in wich one of the various streamliners using their Jacksonville to Miami speedway had something like 29 minutes allowed for the 50 miles between St. Augustine and Bunnel, wich was a flag stop. I've calculated the average speed and it's something like 103.44 mph. It's a lot of speed.
The actual distance from St. Augustine to Bunnell is more like only thirty miles, since the timetable showed the distance via East Palatka rather than the distance via the cutoff. I have the impression that the FEC always used the original mainline distance in calculating its fares.
I had an interesting experience at the north end of the cutoff (Moultrie Jct.) in October of 1967. The railroad was still struck, and was operating passenger service under state order. I rode from West Palm Beach to Jacksonville (one engine unit, I think one baggage car, one coach, and an observation car, which required a first class ticket). When we reached the junction, we had a red signal, which stayed red; apparently a union man had cut a wire after the hi-rail car which preceded the train had gone by.. After about an hour, we proceeded north. I do not know whether or not the railroad had to examine the track carefully to make certain that it was safe for the train to proceed.
Mario_v wrote: Wow that's a lot of speed, and quite a feat in those times, but possible however, if the track was kept under immaculate condition (especially if it was jointed rail, wich might be the most probable case), and if E units were acquired with a gear ratio allowing 117 mph. I know that was a 'catalogue' option for such engines. But it should have been a ride more or less rough.
Yes it was jointed 112# (if I recall correctly) rail which was meticulously ballasted and maintained in near perfect gauge and alignment. At that time the IC had trackmen who walked the high speed mainlines daily carrying a spike maul to drive down any loose spikes and a wrench to tighten any rail join nuts that might be working loose. Actually the ride on the City of New Orleans at 110+ mph was very smooth with no side to side hunting or bouncing over rail joints. I've had far rougher rides on Amtrak trains at 79 mph on CWR.
I rode the CITY from New Orleans to Chicago in February 1965 after going to the Mardi Gras'.
Through the middle of Illinois I was in the rear observation car and it was very rough. Twice we hit a verticle anomaly (type I cannot say) which caused the car to bottom out. We caught an ash tray that was tipping over and drinks were slashed over tables and on the carpet.
I rode the CITY in Feb., 1965 from New Orleans to Chicago and through the middle of Illinois the ride was very rough.
Twice we encountered a vertical anomaly which caused the rear observation car to bottom out. Drinks were spilled and a standing ash tray had to be caught before it fell over. Do not know the speed but it seemed fast.
Los Angeles Rams Guy wrote: wjstix wrote: At the crossing at Rondout, IL the Milwaukee Road had a famous sign that said "SLOW TO 90 MPH". It is interesting that it takes Amtrak a couple of hours longer to go from the Twin Cities to Chicago than the Milwaukee, Burlington, Chicago and NorthWestern and others did in the late 1930's - in some cases, with trains pulled by steam engines. Not just "interesting" - also embarassing as well.
I suppose to be fair to Slamtrak, they're stuck running on lines maintained by freight railroads to freight railroad standards. Trackwork was much better maintained in the streamliner era when the railroad was judged by how smooth it's track was, even at high speed. Plus re the Empire Builder specifically, it's the only train between the Twin Cities and Chicago, so it has to be a little of everything. If you had a "local" train making stops at smaller towns, you could have a limited stop train like an Empire Builder making better time by making fewer stops, even if going at the same speed.
KCSfan wrote:For years the IC's City of New Orleans topped the list with a dash of 110+ mph.
jrbernier wrote:The CB&Q had no cab signaling between Aurora and the Twin Cities.
Hi:
According to an old Trains Magazine in the 1940's, the Rondaut crossing SLOW ORDER was 100 MPH!!! not 90 MPH. I have been talking about this for years.
Maybe someone can verify that to make sure. I do have a few old 1940ish issues but not the particular issue with that information (post WWII issue).
Looking forward to any further input on this.
Thanks.
---"Ken" Ruben---
diningcar wrote: I rode the CITY from New Orleans to Chicago in February 1965 after going to the Mardi Gras'.Through the middle of Illinois I was in the rear observation car and it was very rough. Twice we hit a verticle anomaly (type I cannot say) which caused the car to bottom out. We caught an ash tray that was tipping over and drinks were slashed over tables and on the carpet.
What a difference a few years make. Sometime in the 1950's the IC started to reduce ROW maintneance expenditures which ultimately were pared to the bare minimum required to keep trains on the track. It didn't take many years of minimum maintenance for what had been some of the finest trackage in the country in the post war years to deteriorate to the condition you describe. I have always susupected the objective was to support the stock price and dividends as passenger and commuter service losses mounted and freight revenues declined as traffic was lost to highway trucking. The last time I rode IC trains (Cities of New Orleans and Miami and Green Diamond) was in 1955 and those rides were still very smooth. The decline that was so evident in later years hadn't yet set in.
timz wrote: KCSfan wrote:For years the IC's City of New Orleans topped the list with a dash of 110+ mph.Highest speed Steffee ever listed for the IC was 84.4, as I recall-- less than 85, in any case.
Timz,
I'm not familiar with the source you reference but it is wrong. I'll vouch for the accuracy of everything I stated about the City of NO being carded at 110+ mph over a portion of its run. I'll leave it up to someone who can quote one of the Trains Magazine surveys from the latter 1940's to prove my point.
Donald Steffee's speed surveys of years gone by were based on start-to-stop average speeds, not top speeds. An average speed of 84.4 MPH cited above could require a top speed of 100 MPH somewhere in the run, especially if the distance between stops was relatively short.
Don't confuse speed limits and track speed, timetable speed, and attainable and capable speed, There were trains and locomotives capable of attaining 100+ mph and the track that would allow it but most track was not built for it., so the applicable set speed and restrictions were the actual speed at which a train able to move. But, when you added up all the average speeds plus the stopping, dwell time, and starting, a train's average speed is something quite different. Look at timetable...bus works best here...and you will see a 55 to 65 mph average point to point speed. To attain that speed, the bus has to go 75 to 85 on the interstate. Or look at commuter train timetables where there are 90 mph allowable speeds and see that because of stop, dwell, start times, actual average speed is still down in the 30-35 mph range. 100+ attainable speeds on railroads of the 20th Century more often than not were for public relations rather than actual operations. Today, in other countries, 100+ is common operational speeds, but not yet in the US. And this number is for passenger trains, not freight. I don't believe to have ever heard of a 100 mph freight operation anywhere.
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Interesting discussion. While I know nothing of official scheduled speeds, I have a couple of related items to report.
1. As a child we had family all along the Santa Fe main from La Junta to Hutchson Kansas. This was all "class 5" rail at the time. My Grandmother had a farm just west of Lamar, and my Uncle's farm was adjacent to the main in Granada. The trains flew by. I often went down to the Lamar station to watch the varnish go by. The station agent noted that if there was no reason for the trains to stop it had to slow to 90 mph coming through Lamar. We also drove back and forth along this route all the time. There was one time the train came blasting by us, so my father kicked the accelerator. We burried the speedometer past 120 to catch it. As we finally slowed to pace it, he noted they were going about 110 mph. I think this was between Syracuse and Garden City KS. - (read that as near Holcomb where the Super derailed a few years later). Many years later on the same stretch of road with the FP45s on the point we were unable to keep pace with the train when our vehicle was going 90 mph (max speed for a 1967 Chevy Chevelle).
2. With Amtrak on the Southwest Chief eastbound out of Alberquerque (had to be 1983) I could not keep up with the train and my speedometer said 95 mph. Once again it exceeded my vehicle's top speed.
3. When I was looking to purchase a real dome car, one of the Northern Pacific units I looked at had a speedometer in the front part of the dome. It went up to 120 mph.
P.S. yes I know auto speedometers can be wrong. In high school once I was crusing at 110 mph and a friend was pacing me. He later noted how fun it was to cruise at 140. Who's was right? I think mine was......but one never really knows without a radar gun.
"I'm not familiar with the source you reference but it is wrong." Steffee was the guy that did the speed surveys, for Railroad and then for Trains. "I'll vouch for the accuracy of everything I stated about the City of NO being carded at 110+ mph over a portion of its run. I'll leave it up to someone who can quote one of the Trains Magazine surveys from the latter 1940's to prove my point." In the 1940s Steffee's surveys were still in Railroad. Nobody's going to find a 110-mph start-to-stop schedule in any of Steffee's surveys-- or in any 1940s-1950s timetable for any railroad in the world. What we might find, if we look, is a statement by Steffee that the Q's alleged 86.2-mph schedule from East Dubuque to Prairie du Chien was the fastest start-to-stop schedule ever to appear in the world until ... sometime after 1960.
"I'm not familiar with the source you reference but it is wrong."
Steffee was the guy that did the speed surveys, for Railroad and then for Trains.
"I'll vouch for the accuracy of everything I stated about the City of NO being carded at 110+ mph over a portion of its run. I'll leave it up to someone who can quote one of the Trains Magazine surveys from the latter 1940's to prove my point."
In the 1940s Steffee's surveys were still in Railroad. Nobody's going to find a 110-mph start-to-stop schedule in any of Steffee's surveys-- or in any 1940s-1950s timetable for any railroad in the world.
What we might find, if we look, is a statement by Steffee that the Q's alleged 86.2-mph schedule from East Dubuque to Prairie du Chien was the fastest start-to-stop schedule ever to appear in the world until ... sometime after 1960.
I checked the IC public timetable for 23 Oct 1949-- it shows the City of New Orleans running
57.9 miles from Kankakee to Rantoul in 42 min start to start
14.1 miles Rantoul to Champaign in 13 min start to stop
44.5 miles Champaign to Mattoon in 36 min start to start
26.9 miles Mattoon to Effingham in 23 min start to... start, I think it was.
If you want to pick some other year I'll check it, but it won't be much different.
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