Great Northern Winnipeg Limited

[lattasnip9]

I need some info on the Great Northern's Winnipeg Limited:

-consist

-schedule

-stops

-Also when was it discontinued, with Amtrak's arrival or earlier?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.  thanks.

[RRCharlie]

Robbie;

The Winnipeg Limited, Trains 7 & 8 had Day-Nite Reclining Seat Coaches, Snack Bar-Coach-Table Seating(Sandwiches-Beverages service and Pullman Sleeping Car (73/83) 6 Roometttes, 5 Double Bedrooms, 2 Compartments.

All cars went St. Paul-Winnipeg

In 1970 when Burlington Northern had taken over, the overnight train was gone. The train to Winnipeg was now coach only, connecting at Grand Forks with the Western Star.

Hope this helps.

[daveklepper]

It used the CN station in Winnipeg, not the CP Station.   When I rode it there was one E-8 on the head end.  There were also one or two head-end cars.  Onoly one or two coaches, snack-bar coach, and sleeper.   Rode the Head End with Phil Hastings Crookston-Grand Forks.

[RRCharlie]

Robbie; I didn't read your originalpost all the way through. What follwos is the Jan 1969 schedule of the Winnipeg Limited:

 8:30 PM     St. Paul           7:00 AM      0 miles

 9:10 PM     Minneapolis       6:15 AM    11

10:21 PM    St. Cloud         4:50 AM     77

10:30 PM    St. Cloud         4:45 AM

11:21 PM    Sauk Centre     3:50 AM    119

11:46 PM    Alexandria        3:18 AM    144

                Evansville                        161

12:40 AM   Fergus Falls      2:33 AM     189

 1:30 AM    Barnesville       2:01 AM     220

 1:52 AM    Moorhead        1:20 AM     243

 1:55 AM    Fargo              1:17 AM    244

 3:30 AM    Grand Forks     11:30 PM   323

 3:54 AM    Grand Forks     11:00 PM

 4:29 AM    Crookston        10:29 PM   346

 Train actually stopped at Crookston Freight Station and free taxi service was offered to the passenger station!!!

f4:45 AM    Euclid            f10:10 PM   359

f4:54 AM    Angus            f10:01 PM   367

 5:10 AM    Warren             9:51 PM    376

 5:24 AM    Argyle              9:39 PM    386

 5:37 AM    Stephen           9:29 PM    394

 f5:46 AM   Donaldson        f9:16 PM    403

 5:55 AM    Kennedy           9:10 PM    407

 6:15 AM    Hallock             8:59 PM    417

                Northcote                        422

f6:34 AM    Humboldt         f8:41 PM    429

                St. Vincent                      435

 6:50 AM    Noyes              8:30 PM    437

 7:06 AM   Emerson            8:05 PM    438

 7:21 AM   Emerson Jct       8:00 PM    439

 7:55 AM   Morris                7:29 PM   464

 8:50 AM   Winnepeg           6:30 PM   504

[beaulieu]

It used the CN station in Winnipeg, not the CP Station.   When I rode it there was one E-8 on the head end.  There were also one or two head-end cars.  Onoly one or two coaches, snack-bar coach, and sleeper.   Rode the Head End with Phil Hastings Crookston-Grand Forks.

 

Was that post BN merger, as the GN only had E-7s.

[daveklepper]

Are you absolutely sure the GN had no E-8's?   Possibly second hand from another carrier?   Or could it have been borrowed CB&Q power equalizing mileage?   I think this was before the merger and not after.  But I am not sure.

[passengerfan]

The Great Northern Railway operated two fine consists overnight between St. Paul- Minneapolis and Winnipeg overnight named the WINNIPEG LIMITED and though the Northern Pacific and SOO both operated train services between the same points the GN service was the most highly regarded and only overnight service of the three. The Great Northern Railway WINNIPEG LIMITED was one of those trains that evolved into a streamliner rather than becoming streamlined all at once. The WINNIPEG LIMITED was one of those streamliners without an Observation or Dome but it was still the finest between Winnipeg and St. Paul. A typical consist of the period used streamlined head end cars, 48 Revenue seat Leg rest Coaches handed down from the WESTERN STAR, a PASS series Sleeping Car, a GLACIER series Sleeping Car both handed down from the WESTERN STAR. A Canadian National Railway GREEN series sleeping car was carried between St. Paul and Winnipeg nightly in the summer season that continued on to Vancouver in the SUPER CONTINENTAL west of Winnipeg. The only two cars exclusive to the WINNIPEG LIMITED were the two CLUB series cars rebuilt by Pullman in February, 1956 from GLACIER series Sleeping cars. These two CLUB series cars retained there 8 Duplex Roomettes at one end and two of the Double Bedrooms. The space formerly occupied by the other two Bedrooms had been replaced by a Buffet, and where the remaining eight Duplex Roomettes had been was now a 12 seat Dinette and 12 seat Lounge area. These two cars were numbered and named 1198 MANITOBA CLUB and 1099 WINNIPEG CLUB and were operated one per consist. With the addition of these cars to the WINNIPEG LIMITED March 1, 1956 the trains were streamlined with the following consists.

 

FIRST CONSIST

 

504 EMD E7A 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

  

505 EMD E7A 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

  

1102 Baggage 30' Railway Post Office Car

  

246 Baggage Express Car

  

1131 48 Revenue seat Leg Rest Coach

  

1127 48 Revenue seat Leg Rest Coach

  

1133 48 Revenue seat Leg Rest Coach

  

1198 MANITOBA CLUB 8 Duplex Roomette 2 Double Bedroom Buffet 12 seat Dinette 12 seat Lounge Car

  

1376 HART PASS 6 Roomette 5 Double Bedroom 2 Compartment Sleeping Car

  

1183 HUDSON PASS 16 Duplex Roomette 4 Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

  

SECOND CONSIST

  

507 EMD E7A 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

  

502 EMD E7A 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

  

1103 Baggage 30' Railway Post Office Car

  

249 Baggage Express Car

  

1129 48 Revenue seat Leg Rest Coach

  

1121 48 Revenue seat Leg Rest Coach

  

1126 48 Revenue seat Leg Rest Coach

  

1199 WINNIPEG CLUB 8 Duplex Roomette 2 double Bedroom Buffet 12 seat Dinette 12 seat Lounge Car

  

1383 INUYA PASS 6 Roomette 5 Double Bedroom 2 Compartment Sleeping Car

  

1184 CHANEY GLACIER 16 Duplex Roomette 4 Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

Al - in - Stockton

[daveklepper]

I THINK I rode the train in 1968 or 1969.   Do you have a consist for that period to check on my memory?   And again, is it possible that an E-8 handled the consist for the reasons stated?

 

However, the "dining car" may indeed have been a buffet sleeper and not a snack-bar coach.  In fact, Phil Hastings may have had a room in the buffet sleeper, while I had a roomette in the regular sleeper.

[VerMontanan]

Re: The schedule of the Winnipeg Limited Mel posted.

For most of its "life" the Winnipeg Limited operated via Osseo, St. Cloud, Alexandria, Barnesville, Glyndon, Ada, and downtown Crookston.  It was only in May 1960 that it began operating between Barnesville and North Crookston via Fargo and Grand Forks (this always made more sense to me, anyway).  While routed this way, the train even carried a local St. Paul-Grand Forks sleeper.

The Winnipeg Limited was discontinued effective February 3, 1970.  On that date, the Western Star (which was already operating via Grand Forks) was changed to operate via Elk River and St. Cloud (instead of Willmar), serving the route that was vacated by the Winnipeg Limited and the (at that time) St. Paul-Fargo Dakotan.  Between Grand Forks and Winnipeg, trains 7 and 8 remained, but as daytime trains connecting with the Western Star in Grand Forks, retaining Twin Cities-Winnipeg service, but on a daytime schedule (which also allowed, for instance, travel from Winnipeg to Grand Forks, then west on the Western Star without an excessive layover).  This was the last remaining Twin Cities-Winnipeg service.  NP's daytime service to Winnipeg (an RDC from Fargo) was discontinued in May of 1969.

GN's remnant of the Winnipeg Limited survived until Amtrak day, 1971.

[cn854]

NP's RDC last operated between Winnipeg MB and the US/Canada border on October 31, 1969.  BN's daily daytime psgr train "The Winnipeg Connection" #47-48 operated between Grand Forks ND and Winnipeg and was discontinued on May 1, 1971 with the creation of Amtrak.  Ex GN E7A's were used on this run in the BN period 1970-1971.  Prior to the BN, the GN used combinations of F3's A+B/F7'sA+B/E7A's in pairs on the WINNIPEG LIMITED.

Mark Perry

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

GN had only E7A's.  If E8's turned up on this run, it would have had to be after March 2, 1970 when ex-CB&Q E8's were available.

[aricat]

I believe that the Winnipeg Limited operated on the Osseo Minnesota line until the fall of 1961 when it began to use the Elk River line for the remainder of its life.When I took it in 1966 the only food service was a GN vendor selling sandwiches and soft drinks.GN would operate to the border at Emerson Manitoba and CN worked the it from Emerson to the CN station in Winnipeg. GN power was used all the way to Winnipeg.In 1961 it was still a very impressive train but by 1966 the train was worked by a single E7 and had a much shorter consist.

[daveklepper]

I am trying to figure out why for years I thought it was an E-8 that I rode from Crookston to Grand Forks with Phil Hastings, and the GN only had E-7's.   (no E-9's?)   Can someone check if any GN E-7's had the continuous stainless grilles at the ventilation openinges above the windows?   Either bought just before model change or as a result of repair work?

[jrbernier]

Dave,

  None of the GN's 13 E7A engines were rebuilt to look like an E8.  IIRC, the first 10 were 1945 or 46 engines, and the last 3 were 1947 production - Well before E8 production started in 1949.  CB&Q E8/E9 engines did operate for a short time on the transcon trains west of St Paul to Havre in a pool arrangement - This did not last very long.  They kept their silver 'Q' paint jobs.  The GN E7's were pretty beat by 1968 and many times needed a 'heater' car due to boiler failures.  I suppose that a 'Q' E unit may have been used once on the Winnipeg train(they had dual steam generators and 1950 gallons of boiler water compared to the GN E7's with 1200 gallons of boiler water).

  The Winnipeg Limited in 1967-68 usually operated with a pair of E7A's, a 89' flatcar with trailers of sealed mail(and steam/signal lines), Working RPO, Bagg, 2-3 coaches, sleepers(including the sleeper/club cars).  My parents neighbor was an International RPO clerk and worked the St Paul & Winnipeg run.

  The train usually ran via the Fergus Falls line, but did swap between the Elk River and Rogers line between Mpls and St Cloud.  One would have to review employee time tables through the years for the exact routing.

Jim

[aricat]

John Luecke's book The Great Northern In Minnesota is an excellent source for information about the Winnipeg Limited and other things Great Northern.One of the things the book shows is of  Burlington E8's working the eastbound Empire Builder out of Minneapolis on page 212 of the book.The CB&Q enginehouse is only a short distance from GN's station in Minneapolis;this is still a GN train until it arrives in St Paul. The photo on page 212 is undated.Would the engineer of this these E8's be a GN or a Burlington man?

[jrbernier]

aricat

John Luecke's book The Great Northern In Minnesota is an excellent source for information about the Winnipeg Limited and other things Great Northern.One of the things the book shows is of  Burlington E8's working the eastbound Empire Builder out of Minneapolis on page 212 of the book.The CB&Q enginehouse is only a short distance from GN's station in Minneapolis;this is still a GN train until it arrives in St Paul. The photo on page 212 is undated.Would the engineer of this these E8's be a GN or a Burlington man?

The run from the Mpls station to SPUD would still be a GN crew(Wilmar to St Paul).  I think the photo you mention would have been that short lived power pool with the 'Q'.  GN on train crews service crews were changed at SPUD.  A new crew would go on duty EB to Chicago, and work WB to Seattle and EB back to St Paul.  Of course the 'operating' train crew made the normal crew district changes.....

Jim

[daveklepper]

If Phil Hastings is around, he can answer the question, since he was the one who had the pass that allowed both of us to ride the E Unit from Crookston to Grand Forks.   But also, I remember only one E unit on the front of the train, not two.   So posibly a Burlington unit was substituted for a GN unit.  This was a night-time ride, so the silver paint on the E unit might not have registered in my memory.   It was not a very long train and would not have required two units.

I had done some work in Brandon, Manitoba, saw the opportunity to return to the Chicago area by train instead of by plane, took the Canadian to Winapeg. sampled the troackless torlley line, the the Winnapeg Limited to St. Paul, Morning HIsawatha to Milwaukee. sat next to the sound system operator during Golda Meier's speech at Uhlein Hall in Milwaukee, then the afternoon HIawatha to Glenside, weekend in the Glencoe-HIghland Park area, and then return to apartment in Westmont. 

[Kootenay Central]

Thank You.

 

[daveklepper]

Thanks for your report, and glad to know the type of trolleybus I rode in Winnapeg.   As I remember, there was only one line left at the time.   When did the last streetcars run and how many trolleybus lines were there at maximum?

[Kootenay Central]

Thank You.

[daveklepper]

I agree with you about Toronto the good.   It really was a beacon in the dark days of public transportaton in N. A.   In fact, when an Israeli asked me "What is your favorite American City?"   I would answer, a Canadian city and here is why:   The only North American City that kept streetcars as streetcars, not because they had a tunnel that could not be converted to buses, not because most of their trips were on private right of way and they gave rapid transit service, and not because of their value as a tourist attaction, but because a modern streetcar is the best form of street public transportation when ridership is heavy enough to justify the investment and maintenance in and of the fixed plant.

 

When Mavin Landsman was Mayor, I wrote him a thankyou note!   Got a nice reply, too.

[Kootenay Central]

Thank You.

 

[daveklepper]

But they had sense to keep two PCC's operable, and I understand they usually run on weekends on the Harbor Front Line, convenient for railfans, since it runs out of the trolley subway loop at Union Station.  If you want to ride PCC's in regular service, San Francisco's F line (including one in Toronto colors and scheme), Boston's Mattapan-Ashmont high speed line (but not street-runing, a beautiful private right of way) and Philadelphia's 15 Garrad line, are the places.   And Kenosha when the season starts up again.

[HarveyK400]

This discussion raises the question whether Amtrak should reroute via the former GN?  This would allow connections at the North Star Target Field station and could be coordinated with a second North Star route to Saint Cloud.  The couple extra miles mean little on a trans-continental route while a station's near-downtown presence and connections would mean more.

[HarveyK400]

HarveyK400

This discussion raises the question whether Amtrak should reroute via the former GN?  This would allow connections at the North Star Target Field station and could be coordinated with a second North Star route to Saint Cloud.  The couple extra miles mean little on a trans-continental route while a station's near-downtown presence and connections would mean more.

 

Oops!  Former GN seems abandoned north of Monticello to Saint Cloud which is problematic as well.

[rmgoat]

The only real change to GN's E-7A units (there were no B units) were to add the larger slanted style numberboards introduced in mid F-3 production replacing the originals and eventual change to the Green/Orange simplified scheme, none got 'Big Sky' blue AFAIK. 

According to Phil Currie who was a CB&Q and later BN officer, there was a time just before merger when CB&Q E units ran as far as west Minot or Grand Forks ND on the Empire Builder instead turning at the Twin Cities, in exchange for some GN passenger F units. Apparently the Q mechanical staff were "appalled" at the condition of the GN units which GN was barely maintaing as they were about to be traded in to EMD or GE for newer units

As for Winnipeg trolley buses, according to Tom Schwarzkopf's 'Tires and Wires' the buses would have been one of the following, Canadian Car and Foundry/Brill T-44s or T-48s, Pullman T-46CX (ex Providence RI) or American Car and Foundry/Brill T-46 (ex Flint MI). Trolley service ended in October 1970.

 

[daveklepper]

Thanks, and when did the last streetcar run?

[rcdrye]

September 19, 1955.  One car (356) was preserved.

[NP Eddie]

The CBQ E-units worked west to Havre, but not west because they did not have dynamic brakes. In turn the GN freight power worked onto the CBQ, but I don't know where they operated to or from.

I saw a almost hit on the Winnipeg one night about 1967 as #7 missed an auto that crossed directly in front of it after picking up train orders on the NP/GN joint line at 43rd Avenue, Northtown.

Mr. Currie's first name was Earl.

Also, the working RPO went from St. Paul to Noyes, MN where it was switched out of the train. I don't know if the car was turned at Noyes. Presently Noyes is only used for CP (SOO) or BNSF (GN-BN) interchange. The highway crossing was closed and moved to Pembina. ND.

Ed Burns

[bill613a]

Soo Lines WINNEPEGER was also an overnite train.