Johnny
RoyPBower wrote:Although I cannot tell you specifically what consists were used, I do remember as a kid going trackside in Miami and watching the City of Miami coming in on its last stretch into the Magic City. I would see her around Fulford, between Hollywood and Opa-Locka. She was a beautiful train and frequently had IC power running through making a completely matched consist right down to the obs. This was late 60's and early 70's. The chocolate brown, orange and yellow were such splendid colors.
In my boyhood I lived in a far south suburb of Chicago literally a stones throw from the 6-track IC mainline. I remember standing trackside to see the CM, resplendent in its original orange and green paint scheme, on its first southbound trip in 1940. I got two short horn blasts from the engineer in response to my waving as the train passed - quite a thrill for an eight year old boy. For those that are interested the orginal consist of the CM follows:
City of Miami Consist
Mark
Mel Hazen; Jax, FL Ride Amtrak. It's the only way to fly!!!
I do not know if anybody is still interested in the Chicago-Florida streamliners or not; I looked at this thread yesterday for the first time.
First, as to trains operating through Trilby, the Southland, of course split here. My timetables are spotty until the early fifties, but the January 1930, January 1935 and January 1939 ACL timetables show that the through cars from the east coast to Tampa-Sarasota on the Gulf Coast Limited went through Orlando, and not through Dunnellon-Trilby (the January 1935 and January 1939 schedules show the same). There was, in January 1930, a parlor car from Jacksonville to Tampa that went through Dunnellon and Trilby on the St. Petersburg section of the Gulf Coast Limited.
The through cars from the Middle West that came into Jacksonville on trains such as the Seminole were carried south of Jacksonville on other trains.
As to frequency of operation of the streamliners, in the winter of '53-'54, the City of Miami and the South Wind were operated every other day, on the same dates, and the Dixie Flagler was operated on the dates that the South Wind did not, and shared the same schedule south of Jacksonville (the City of Miami had its own schedule). This may have held in previous winters; I do not have any winter ACL timetables between January of '39 and December 17, 1953. In the winters of '54-'55 through '56-'57, the City of Miami and the South Wind were operated on the same dates, every other day, and thus had the same schedule south of Jacksonville. The Dixieland was operated on the third day,and had its own schedule south of Jacksonville.
Until December of '54, the City of Miami was turned in Miami the same day it arrived, leaving about two hours after arriving; the South Wind equipment spent one or two nights in Miami and the Dixie Flagler equipment spent three nights in Miami. During the last three winters of operation of the three trains, the equipment of both the City of Miami and the South Wind would both leave the next day--the Dixieland's equipment still spent three nights in Miami. In all cases, the equipment was scheduled to leave Chicago the day after arrival from Miami.
With the abolition of the Southland, the streamliners were equipped with through cars for the west coast. In the last days before the advent of Amtrak, with the operation of the West Coast Champion through Tampa to Petersburg, the Chicago to Tampa-Sarasota cars were discontinued, but the St. Petersburg cars were kept until the end, being operated through Ocala and Trilby. The St. Petersburg section of the Silver Star also was routed through Orlando and Lakeland under the SCL management.
A question was posed, asking if there was any combination of ACL and SAL trains south of Jacksonville for Miami. As long as Champion Davis had anything to do with the ACL, it would have been utterly impossible; he had no use at all for "that other railroad." There may have been detours, but only after the FEC was struck was there any regular use of the SAL, and even then the trains stayed on ACL to the last reasonable interchange point, Auburndale.
I went to my storage locker today the first time in a year. Do you think I could find the box with all of my OC's, forget it. I had only an hour and I think it will require a day at least. I forgot just how much Junk (family Heirlooms) are stored in that locker. I think I will need a couple of strong backs to sort through it all. And I was the one who wanted to do a diagram of everything as we put it in the storage locker and I did but can't seem to locate the diagram.
Al - in - Stockton
A big thanks to all of you for the research you've done on this subject. I'm now fairly well convinced I was wrong in thinking I'd ridden in a through coach from Chi to Bradenton in the early 50's without changing trains at Jax. After further reflection I vaguely remember making my last roundtrip on either the CM or SW around Christmastime 1957 which was shortly after I was discharged from the army. It must have been that trip that I had in mind and not one of the earlier ones. I know for a fact that the ACL train running on the Sarasota line consisted of a heavyweight combine, a NY coach and sleeper and a Chi coach and sleeper. All but the combine were added to a number of other cars at Tampa to make up the northbound WC Champion. The two Chicago cars were taken off the Champion at Jax and added to the consist of either the CM or SW upon its arrival from Miami.
Time sometimes plays tricks with my memories of events that happened 50 odd years ago.
I have about 800 timetables, about 200 of them are L&N. My supply of IC, for example, is much less.
Anyway, I show west coast cars in these: IC 12/15/67, ACL 12/13/57 (when they began) 10/27/57 (none). Seaboard Coast Line 12/11/70, SCL 4/27/69. I note that the Tampa Sarasota cars were gone at some point but the St. Pete lasted up until the end. . Just showing SW west coast would be L&N 4/26/65, L&N 12/15/67, L&N 12/14/68, L&N 4/2i9/62, showing they ran summer as well as winter. And they were never on the Flagler. There were small timetables just before Amtrak, forgot to note them, but the St.Pete was there through the end. One might not remember this but the Southern Railroad took over Central of Georgia for a few years so there is a SOU tmetable showing the CM with west coast cars to St. Pete dated 2/1/70 and one from 1971 but can't read my scribble.
No evidence I could find between 1947 to 1957 of any through CHI-WC cars via JAX. There were through sleepers on the heavyweights but they went via Perry.I am slim on my supply of IC but have quite a few ACL and that helps cover the bases well.
About run dates: ACL 12/24/48, all three every third day: 12/12/50 L&N all of them 2 days out of 3; ACL 12/12/52 SW and CM 2 days out of 3 , DF, every 3rd; L&N 12/16/52 SW 2 out of 3,DF, every 3rd.
ACL 12/16/54 , CM and SW, every other day, DL every 3rd; ACL 12/15/55, SW and CM every other day, DL every 3rd day.
Bill
Gentlemen. What the Official Guide showed is not necessarily what railroad timetables showed. We found one other mistake in a past Forum thread, regarding the through NYC - Shreveport sleeper. I did ride the City of Miami during this period, but I do not remember the specific dates. The period was 1958 or 1959 through to startup of Amtrak, and I am quite sure that any sleepers that the Guide shows running just to Jacksonville, on the City of Miami during the winter season, did run through somehow to West Coast Florida points.
I also saw with my own eyes the West Coast Champion running through Winter Park with IC City of Miami equipment in the consist. This may, of course, have been two train numbers combined in one train movement. I think I saw this both during ACL days when the ACL operated to Miami over the Seabord from Auburndale, and in SCL days. If the railroad could save money by running a combined consist, they would do so. Regardless of the timetable showing two separate trains. I cannot state whether this equipment was coaches or sleepers or both.
On one trip to Florida, I remember distincty two station stops at Lakeland, which has a shorter platform than either Winter Park or Orlando. I was riding the West Coast Champion. I am uncertain whether there were IC or PRR-L&N cars in the consist on that trip. I also remember two station stops at Deland.
agentatascadero wrote:Gentlemen, Armed with OG's from Dec 1959, and July 1966, I see, in the IC timetables that there were Pullmans for east and west coast of Florida in both issues, with consists much healthier in '59....1959: 8 Pullmans Chicago to Miami, 1 St Louis to Maimi, 1 Sarasota to Chicago, and 1 St Perersburg to Chicago. 1966:2 Pullmans Chicago to Miami, 1 Pullman Chicago to Tampa. I do not believe any of the Florida trains, from New York OR Chicago, ran combined south of Jacksonville. More typically, trains split at Jacksonville for Miama and the various west coast destinations. I do not think SAL and ACL ever partnered on combined Florida runs, and have never seen any sort of evidence of such practice. AA
Thanks for the additional information Gent Atascadero. My January 1961 and January 1963 OG's show no west coast sleepers in the City of Miami. I am going to my storage unit tomorrow and get the rest of my guides so I can see if their is any indication of why these two winter's no west coast sleepers. I also have a summer 1954 guide here and it shows no west coast sleepers in the City of Miami. I probably have one summer and one winter for every year from 1948 to 1969. I have been meaning to bring them to my place but have been to lazy to go and dig them out.
I will see what I can find out tonight. I am at work (no timetables) and at home I have no computer.
I don't know much about 1949. Do you have the timetables? I will see what I ahve.
Am quite sure the big 3 did not have through service but I know some of the seconday trains like the Dixie Flyer and the Seminole had through cars to the west coast back then,perhaps 1949.
About the Dixieland being discontinued in Nov. 1957--it was it's equipment, esp its new 4-4-5-1 sleeprs, which went into the SW enabling the SW to have enough equipment to serve both coasts.. That was a big deal. I was born in 1944 so in 1957 I was very alive and very well. Some of the DL eqiupment(only three years old, you recall ) also spruced up the Georgian. Guess the IC had enough spare of its own to extend the CM.
One of the things about the trains operating more than every third day it that it someitimes meant the intermediate stops were served by more than one train on a given day . I was on the Flagler once in Nashville when the SW came scooting in a few tracks away, same day, same direction,.Guess there were days when the CM and the SW were in Birmingahm at the same time
Will let you know tomorrow what I find out tongiht.
BIll
KCSfan wrote: bill haithcoat wrote: About the CHI to West coast through coaches and sleepers. They lasted until the trains were discontinued. That would be the City on Amtrak- day and the South Wind in 1979 after having become Amtrak's Floridian shortly after Amtrak took over. The key point is when they began and that is the winter season Dec, 1957-58. Bill,If I understand your reply you are saying that the CM and SW began carrying through Chi - west coast cars in 1957 and this service lasted until the trains were discontinued. I have to differ with you on these points. I made probably six trips between Chicago and Bradenton, FL (on the ACL's Tampa - Sarasota branch) in the 40's and early 50's on the CM and SW. On earlier trips I had to change at Jax to/from the connecting WC Champion. On one trip the train from Chi was late and the Champion had already left prior to our arrival in Jax so I had the "pleasure" of riding the ACL's Jax - Tampa local in a straight backed coach and eating a lunch consisting of a stale ham and cheese sandwich and candy bar purchased from a news butcher who boarded the train during its stop at Orlando. On my later trips I rode in a through coach and no longer had to change at Jax so I'd put the time when the through cars to the west coast were added at about 1949 plus or minus a year.I don't know the year that the through Chi - west coast coaches and sleepers were dropped from the CM and SW but my June 1954 OG for both trains lists only Chi - Miami cars (plus St.L - Miami cars for the CM). Perhaps they ran until a later date but only during the winter season. Al-in-Stockton is going to give us the time when this through service was discontinued.I'm still pretty sure that the CM, SW and Dixie Flagler never ran on anything but a rotating every third day schedule and then went to an every other day schedule when the Flagler was discontinued. I'll stand corrected if you come up with any timetable info that shows they ran more frequently during the winter months.Mark
bill haithcoat wrote: About the CHI to West coast through coaches and sleepers. They lasted until the trains were discontinued. That would be the City on Amtrak- day and the South Wind in 1979 after having become Amtrak's Floridian shortly after Amtrak took over. The key point is when they began and that is the winter season Dec, 1957-58.
About the CHI to West coast through coaches and sleepers. They lasted until the trains were discontinued. That would be the City on Amtrak- day and the South Wind in 1979 after having become Amtrak's Floridian shortly after Amtrak took over.
The key point is when they began and that is the winter season Dec, 1957-58.
Bill,
If I understand your reply you are saying that the CM and SW began carrying through Chi - west coast cars in 1957 and this service lasted until the trains were discontinued.
I have to differ with you on these points. I made probably six trips between Chicago and Bradenton, FL (on the ACL's Tampa - Sarasota branch) in the 40's and early 50's on the CM and SW. On earlier trips I had to change at Jax to/from the connecting WC Champion. On one trip the train from Chi was late and the Champion had already left prior to our arrival in Jax so I had the "pleasure" of riding the ACL's Jax - Tampa local in a straight backed coach and eating a lunch consisting of a stale ham and cheese sandwich and candy bar purchased from a news butcher who boarded the train during its stop at Orlando. On my later trips I rode in a through coach and no longer had to change at Jax so I'd put the time when the through cars to the west coast were added at about 1949 plus or minus a year.
I don't know the year that the through Chi - west coast coaches and sleepers were dropped from the CM and SW but my June 1954 OG for both trains lists only Chi - Miami cars (plus St.L - Miami cars for the CM). Perhaps they ran until a later date but only during the winter season. Al-in-Stockton is going to give us the time when this through service was discontinued.
I'm still pretty sure that the CM, SW and Dixie Flagler never ran on anything but a rotating every third day schedule and then went to an every other day schedule when the Flagler was discontinued. I'll stand corrected if you come up with any timetable info that shows they ran more frequently during the winter months.
I will check in tomorrow. I am at work (no timetables) and at home I have no computer.
1949 is a little out of my range, but am quite sure the big three did not have through west coast cars then.That was about the year they got heavyweight pullmans, from the old Dixieland, Florida Arrow and Sunchaser discontinued. Do you have timetables for that? I may have one ro two.
One of the big reasons I remember the west coast start up after the Dixeiland was dropped in fall, 1957 is because it was the Dixieland's three year old equipment which was added to the South Wind enabling it to go west.Some also replaced some of the older CHI-MIAMi streamlined cars. These were the somewhat unique 4-4-5-1 sleepers This was the start of the red SW eventually becoming more and more silver. Guess IC had enough spare cars of its own.
One of the interesting things about when some of them operated more than every third day is that it meant some would be in the same intermedatie stops on the same day For example, there might be days when both the Dixie Flagler (or Dixieland) would be in Nashville when the SW would blow through a few tracks away.I actually remember that once. It definately happend, I just don't remember the details. Guess there were days when both the CM and SW would serve Birmingham.
Will let you know what I can find.
The only thing above I cannot explain is your through service in 1949,.
That disposing of the Dixieland cars into the SW and the Georgian.was a signfiicant event. I was born in 1944 so in 1957 I was very alive and very well.
But is it conceivable that the cars shown as running only to Jacksonville were so shown because that was the limit of their operation on the City of Miami and actually they ran through to St. Pete or Tampa - on the West Coast Champion or other connecting train?
Seems strange to me that cars from Chicago would run only to Jacksonville in the winter season in the '6o's. Business travelers had largely moved to jets by then, and the winter seaon business was primarily vacations. St. Pete and Tampa, like Miami, were appropriate destinations for vacations. But not Jacksonville.
My own memory says there were through cars, and I did ride the City of Miami during the period. But I was a business traveler from Jacksonville to Chicago or reverse! Also rode the Floridian under Amtrak. Worst long distance Amtrak train I ever rode, in every respect, ride quality (particularly on the PRR stretch), lateness, food, you name it. Car attendant was OK, though!
Thanks to all for the replies and the good information. After reading the "all pullman" issue of CT, I got to wondering what the CM might have had as I watched it pass me as a kid years ago.
Thanks,
George
I just double checked my official guides and the winter 1961 and winter 1963 guides under IC does not list any west coast cars operating in the City of Miami consists and the schedule was every other day for the City of Miami and the South Wind. So both trains had two consists.
passengerfan wrote: Typical winter consist of CITY OF MIAMI in winter months 1960's3 E unitsBaggage Dormitory sometimes a baggage car ahead of this car6-6-4 Sleeper Chicago - Miami10-6 Sleeper Chicago - Miami3 -1-1 Sleeper Lounge Car Chicago - MiamiDome Sleeper Chicago - Miami6-6-4 Sleeper Chicago - Jacksonville10 - 6 Sleeper St. Louis - Miami6-6-4 Sleeper St. Louis - MiamiDining CarCoach Chicago - MiamiCoach Chicago - JacksonvilleDinerCoach Chicago - MiamiCoach Chicago - MiamiCoach Chicago - MiamiCoach St. Louis - MiamiLounge Observation Chicago - MiamiHope this helpsAl - in - Stockton
Typical winter consist of CITY OF MIAMI in winter months 1960's
3 E units
Baggage Dormitory sometimes a baggage car ahead of this car
6-6-4 Sleeper Chicago - Miami
10-6 Sleeper Chicago - Miami
3 -1-1 Sleeper Lounge Car Chicago - Miami
Dome Sleeper Chicago - Miami
6-6-4 Sleeper Chicago - Jacksonville
10 - 6 Sleeper St. Louis - Miami
6-6-4 Sleeper St. Louis - Miami
Dining Car
Coach Chicago - Miami
Coach Chicago - Jacksonville
Diner
Coach St. Louis - Miami
Lounge Observation Chicago - Miami
Hope this helps
Could it be that the reason this 60's listing does not show the west coast cars is that, perhaps, it is from FEC sources? In which case the west coast cars would have been irrelevent.
KCSfan wrote: bill haithcoat wrote: Historically each of the streamliners had operated every third day in rotation. Though, in truth , the Ciy and the Wind sometimes operated more frequently than that, at least in the winter. Way back about 1951 the Flagler also ran a little more frequently--but none of them ran every ran daily, unitl Amtrak took over the South Wind ( later to be renamed the Floridian). But with the two of them left , it became permanetly every other day, and with the coast cars. I believe you are mistaken about the CM and SW sometimes operating more frequently than ever third day. You probably are thinking of the seasonal trains that ran only during the winter months. The IC's added winter train on the Chi - Fla run was the Sunchaser and the PRR ran a similar winter train on the SW's route but I can't remember its name. Mark
bill haithcoat wrote: Historically each of the streamliners had operated every third day in rotation. Though, in truth , the Ciy and the Wind sometimes operated more frequently than that, at least in the winter. Way back about 1951 the Flagler also ran a little more frequently--but none of them ran every ran daily, unitl Amtrak took over the South Wind ( later to be renamed the Floridian). But with the two of them left , it became permanetly every other day, and with the coast cars.
Historically each of the streamliners had operated every third day in rotation. Though, in truth , the Ciy and the Wind sometimes operated more frequently than that, at least in the winter. Way back about 1951 the Flagler also ran a little more frequently--but none of them ran every ran daily, unitl Amtrak took over the South Wind ( later to be renamed the Floridian). But with the two of them left , it became permanetly every other day, and with the coast cars.
I believe you are mistaken about the CM and SW sometimes operating more frequently than ever third day. You probably are thinking of the seasonal trains that ran only during the winter months. The IC's added winter train on the Chi - Fla run was the Sunchaser and the PRR ran a similar winter train on the SW's route but I can't remember its name.
Actually, I am sure of it but cannot detail it year per year from memory--not by a long shot. I can look it up tonight if you like. I still have the old timetables.
But I am aware , also---of the old original Dixieland. the Florida Arrow (the PRR train) and the Sunchaser, I even know of the old Dixieana, a train which ran the Flagler route and only ran two or three trips before Pearl Harbour and then was discontinued to go into general service.
I am not confusing the really, really old trains with the CM or the SW of the 40's and 50's and 60's.
I have many ACL, FEC, L&N,IC and PRR timetables from the period.And they are still "real" to me, I still actually get them out from time to time. The history of days of operation was inconsistent. Sometimes they ran two days out of three, somes maybe something else. It stood out to be me because, sadly, "my train" the Dixie Flagler (which ran through my hometown of Chattanooga) usually did not have enough business to justify that except for just one winter season, either 1950 or 51, cannot remember.
And, as pointed out above also, it did die before the other two. Also, it never had west coast cars.
So yes, the exact history of days of operation is very confusing, but I do have lots and lots of timetables that show it, even on the CM and SW, until the Dixie Flager/Dixeland was gone, then they became completely consistent all year long every year, every other day.
On Dec. 16, of 1954, three years earlier, the Dixie Flagler had been re-equipped and re-named the Dixieland.
Sadly, end of November 1957---- Just under three years after that--- it was discontinued and also the heavy weight Southland's west coast cars were dropped close to the same time. (the Southland still operated Cin-ATl-JAX. for awhile )
That is when the CIty of Miami and South Wind got a new lease on life (with the Dixie Flagler/Dixieland no longer in the trio picture). carrying the west coast sections ( with the Southland no longer in the picture).. And they also became every other day trains year round.
I will refer to some of my older Official guides from the mid to late 50's to see if it sheds any light on when the west coast cars were dropped. Just have to find some time after the Honey-doo list is completed for the day.
passengerfan wrote: I took the City of Miami consist out of the January 1963 Official Guide. The gentleman asked for a winter 1960's consist.Al - in - Stockton
I took the City of Miami consist out of the January 1963 Official Guide. The gentleman asked for a winter 1960's consist.
Al,
I wasn't questioning the accuracy of your info which was why I said only that I had assumed the through cars to the west coast cities continued to run until the trains involved were discontinued themselves. I'm surprised to learn that this service was discontinued at a prior date because I recall it being popular and well patronized. Perhaps schedule changes on either the trains from Chi or the Champion from NY made the through connection at Jax no longer possible.
al-in-chgo wrote: KCSfan wrote: Both the City of Miami and the Southwind also carried through Chicago - Tampa, Chi - St. Petersburg and Chi - Sarasota coaches and sleepers. I made the Chi - Sarasota trip (actually Bradenton was my stop) trip several times as late as about 1953. These cars were carried on the ACL's West Coast Champion south of Jacksonville. I don't know when the through service to the west coast ended and had assumed it had continued until these trains were discontinued.Mark Did the Chi - St. Pete section actually have to route thru Jacksonville? - a.s.
KCSfan wrote: Both the City of Miami and the Southwind also carried through Chicago - Tampa, Chi - St. Petersburg and Chi - Sarasota coaches and sleepers. I made the Chi - Sarasota trip (actually Bradenton was my stop) trip several times as late as about 1953. These cars were carried on the ACL's West Coast Champion south of Jacksonville. I don't know when the through service to the west coast ended and had assumed it had continued until these trains were discontinued.Mark
Both the City of Miami and the Southwind also carried through Chicago - Tampa, Chi - St. Petersburg and Chi - Sarasota coaches and sleepers. I made the Chi - Sarasota trip (actually Bradenton was my stop) trip several times as late as about 1953. These cars were carried on the ACL's West Coast Champion south of Jacksonville. I don't know when the through service to the west coast ended and had assumed it had continued until these trains were discontinued.
Did the Chi - St. Pete section actually have to route thru Jacksonville? - a.s.
Service to the Fla west coast cities on all the Chicago - Fla streamliners (Citiy of Miami, Southwind and Dixie Flagler) was routed through Jax connecting with the WC Champion. The Champion split at Trilby IIRC into two subsections one going to Tampa and one to St. Pete. A single sleeper and coach from both NY and Chi continued on from Tampa to Sarasota.
The heavyweight Southland was the only train between the north and Florida that did not run via Jax. It ran up the west coast of Fla over the ACL's Perry Cutoff to Albany, GA, and on to Atlanta via the CofG, to Cincinnatti on the L&N and finally into Chi over the Pennsy.
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