I have a question about New York to Washington diesel passenger services around 1947/48, what lines were operating at this time? Was it just the PRR or would you have caught a B&O train? What sort or engines were being used and in what combinations (i.e. would they have used 2 A units in tandem?). Would these lines have been all passenger or would there been freight cars included? What was the connection you would have taken to Mississippi?
Any feedback appreciated, links to good info sites and photos,
thanks!
Dan
Not traveling on any trains in the east during that period but having an extensive library od passenger train books it seems that the only diesel hauled passenger trains between New York and Washington would have been the B&O trains from Jersey City to Washington. Of course B&O buses loaded and unloaded passengers at several points in NYC to and from Washington and points west. The PRR trains between Washington and New York were all pulled by electrics as far as I know.
To get to Mississippi from Washington would probably have been on the Southern from Washington to Mississippi. This would have been the most direct and fastest route.
In 1947 and 1948 about 85% of travelers between New York and Washington used the PRR's passenger trains, all of which were pulled by GG-1 electrics and comprised a mix of mostly modernized and air-conditioned P-70 coaches, some not modernized and not air conditioned still in use in peak periods, some through trains from Boston were included and these often included both non-air-conditioned New Haven coaches and some of the 8200-series "American Flyer" air-coonditioned coaches. On most trains parlor car service was provided by heavyweight six-wheel-truck air-conditioned parlor cars, mostly PRR, but some New Haven. Expresses ran hourly, and normal running time was three hours and 55 mintes. A few were a bit faster a three hours and 45 minutes, and the fastest was the evening Congressional, leaving both Washington and New York at 5pm, stopping only at Newark, Philadelphia (either both North Philly and 30th |St. or 30th St. only) Wilimington, and Baltimore. All the other trains stopped at Trenton and made both stops in Philadelphia and some handled checked baggage which the Congressional did not. Nor any other headend traffic. I'd say about 10% drove, and the remaining five percent were split between the B&O's Royal Blue Jersey City - Washington mostly diesel trains, with possibly some steam left in operation, and Eastern and American Air Lines from La Guardia to National Aiprort. Not that the Royal Blue trains ran empty, since they picked up some Jersey customers, including West Trenton. All B&O trains in this service were air-conditioned and most had reclining seats, available on the PRR only on the Congretional, and then not guaranteed during peak periods.
On the PRR, NY - Washington expresses also handled through cars to destinations reached by the Southern, ACL-FEC, SAL, C&O, and a sleeper to Norfolk via the RF&P to Richmond, ACL to Petersburg, and N&W to Norfolk. (Yes, I rode it.)
The B&O reached Jersey City via the Reading from Philadelphia to Bound Brook and the Jersey Central to Jersey City. Its buses connected JC with Manhattan and Brooklyn points via the CNJ ferries, not through the HOLLAND TUNNEL!
That's great detail, obviously a first hand account! This gives me a lot to go on. I assumed that the PRR and B&O had a long standing competition for this route, but it sounds like the electric service won hands down. Was this due to availability or price? Did the PRR monopolize passenger traffic before electrification of the line? Sounds like The Royal Blue line was doing well until at least the end of WW2 and offered an attractive luxury service.
Thank you both for your replies!
Regards,
Except for WWI (not WWII), when the USRA Administration forced the PRR to handle B&O trains in and out of Penn Station (DD-1 3rd-rail-electric to steam at Manhattan transfer, like the PRR trains), the B&O did not enter Manhattan directly. That was the PRR's main advantange. The B&O was also slightly slower in general, most of its trains taking 4-1/2 hours between Jersey City and Washington, and the bus rides to Manhattan added 30-40 minutes additional. The PRR dining cars were good (the occasional New Haven even slightly better), but the B&O dining cars were excellent, about equal to the Super Chief or 20th Century, and all B&O passenger equipment in the service was air-conditioned and most coaches had reclining seats. Fares were the same, bus ride included.
The airlines at the time were using DC-3's, each handling not much more than a busload in capcity. Flying time was about 1-1/4, and fares were comperable with first-class plus parlor seat rail, maybe a little more. With time to and from the airports, without today's expressways, better on the NY end with some parkways, the Triborough Bridge, and the East River Drive already in place, there wasn't much of a time benefit for plane over train. And weather delays were much more common. The PRR had dramatically speeded up the service with electrification. Before, running times were the same as the B&O. Driving would be about five or six hours if you were lucky, because it was Route 1 all the way. No Interstates, no New Jersey Turnpike, only some limited access highways in a few spots.
The Southern probably had a through sleeper at the time from New York Penn Station to Jackson, MS, via PRR to Washington, then Southern -or Southern - N&W - and Southern again via Briston and Roanoke, to Meridan, and then the line owned now by KCS but then by the Illinois Central, to Jackson. There were connecting passenger trains all the way for coach passengers, but a change probably was required in both Washington and Meridan.
The strangest sleeper of all was the one then left Penn Station on the PRR and entered Chicago on the NYC (Big Four)! It was a C&O New York - Chicago sleeper on the George Washington. I don't think it ran every day and not for the whole period. C&O through trains to Chicago were handled by the NYC from Cincinnati, although the C&O had its own freight line to Chicago, and this had local passsenger service as far as Hammond, one local each way, with the connection to the South Shore at Hammond.
Though its schedule was not as fast as that of the PRR trains and required a bus connection from Manhattan to Jersey City, the B&O's Royal Blue IMHO was the classisest train running between NYC and Washington. All seats were reserved, it carried a cafe-lounge-observation car, parlor cars, and offered excellent dining car service. At one time it even had a coach designated for women only who didn't want to be annoyed by the advances of those ruffian businesmen passengers.
Mark
Why did FDR's administration in the 1930s choose to have the Pennsy DC-NY Penn route electrified, and not the B&O's? Was it the straight shot into Manhattan that gave PRR the advantage? - a.s.
timz wrote:Who said they were the ones that decided?
Because one federal "alphabet soup" agency funded the project and another built it. Believe it was the PWA and WPA, but I get confused. Even in the Thirties people did! - a.s.
PRR got loans (zat what you mean by "funding"?) from the RFC and PWA, but it's news to me that any govt agency built the electrification, or made the decision that it was to be built. Anybody heard of the WPA being involved?
The plan to complete electrication between NY and Wilmington was announced in 1928. Any reason any govt agency would have been involved at that time?
Considering that Jersey City was the easternmost terminus for B&O's named passenger trains (meaning other than just the Royal Blue), I think the estimation that only five percent of passengers used the B&O east of Washington (if I'm reading correctly) seems very low to me.
daveklepper wrote: The Southern probably had a through sleeper at the time from New York Penn Station to Jackson, MS, via PRR to Washington, then Southern -or Southern - N&W - and Southern again via Briston and Roanoke, to Meridan, and then the line owned now by KCS but then by the Illinois Central, to Jackson. There were connecting passenger trains all the way for coach passengers, but a change probably was required in both Washington and Meridan.
How did the Southern experience compare to the B&O? Were they using all Pullman cars around 1947/48? I haven't found much information to go on but it looks like the streamliner "Southerner" was a real flagship. Would this have taken you all the way to Meridian or would the Meridian leg mean a step down to something simpler, and maybe steam? There was also the Crescent, the Tennessean and the Royal Palm, how did they compare to the Southerner?
If you went via PRR to Washington, would you be taking a PRR diesel or an electric?
dan green wrote: daveklepper wrote: The Southern probably had a through sleeper at the time from New York Penn Station to Jackson, MS, via PRR to Washington, then Southern -or Southern - N&W - and Southern again via Briston and Roanoke, to Meridan, and then the line owned now by KCS but then by the Illinois Central, to Jackson. There were connecting passenger trains all the way for coach passengers, but a change probably was required in both Washington and Meridan.How did the Southern experience compare to the B&O? Were they using all Pullman cars around 1947/48? I haven't found much information to go on but it looks like the streamliner "Southerner" was a real flagship. Would this have taken you all the way to Meridian or would the Meridian leg mean a step down to something simpler, and maybe steam? There was also the Crescent, the Tennessean and the Royal Palm, how did they compare to the Southerner?If you went via PRR to Washington, would you be taking a PRR diesel or an electric?
The Southern's through trains to New York, and also those of the ACL and SAL, ran on the PRR north of Washington behind GG-1 electric motors. However none of these trains (unlike those of the B&O and PRR itself) carried passengers traveling just between New York, Washington and intermediate cities. Passengers on the trains of the three southern roads had to be ticketed to/from points south of Washington.
The Royal Palm did not serve either New York or Washington. It was a Cincinatti - Florida train running via Chattanooga and Atlanta.
The PRR/Southern/Illinois Central had through sleeping car service from New York not just to Jackson but all the way west to Shreveport, LA. Coach passengers traveling this route did indeed have to change cars/trains at Meridian.
The Pennsy appied for the loan, the B&O didn't. The Pennsy planned much earlier, which is why it chose 11000v 25Hz Ac, instead of 600V DC for its Philly suburban electrication. It would have done it without Guvmnt help if it had not been for the Depression, It already had a NY Terminal and LIRR and Atlantic City - Camden (not the present route) electrification at 600V DC when it chose to follow the New Haven with AC for the Philly - Paoli electrification in 1913. Washington and Patomic Yard were simply one more step in an overall electrification program. By 1933, Wilmington to Trenton was electrified, then came bridging the gap to the New Haven RR (New York Connecting Railroad Hell Gate Brige line owned by PRR and NYNH&H) and Sunnyside Yard, then from Wilmington south to Washington and Patomic Yard, then west to Enola Yard and Harrisburg. Undoubtadly if prosperity had continued, no Interstate Highways, no jet planes, and no advanced development of the diesel, the PRR would have continiued with Harrisburg to Pittsburgh, even with the big expense of tunnel roof raising. That was the plan.
Note that the Royal Blue line ran under wires at two points on the Reading, a short stretch near Philadelphia, and a longer stretch Neshaminy Junction to West Trenton. The Reading wanted its electrification to be compatible with the Pennsy's in case of planning joint downtown facilities for the future, which did come to pass with the Center City Tunnel and Market East Station constructed by SEPTA.
More on the B&O. I remember the NYC B&O terminals (bus) as being Columbus Circle (one I used closest to home and school), across from Grand Central Terminal under the highway overpass on the south side of 42nd St., the Hudson Terminal Building, and at the LIRR Atlantic and Flatbush Avenues terminal in Brooklyn. Open to corrections and additions. The two platforms normally used by the B&O at the JC CRRNJ or NJC had bus turntables at their extreme west ends.
The through sleeper from Penn Station to Jackson and Shreveport was probably a heavyweight 12 section one drawing room, and someone can check a 1947 or 1948 Official Guide. Interested in learning just which Southern and IC trains it ran on.
Some of the through trains to the south and southwest running on the PRR NY-Washington were coupled right behind a regular NY-Washington train. While local PRR passengers were supposedly not allowed in the through equipment, on occasion a friendly crew would allow a local PRR pasenger to use the through train's dining car. This was a very rare experience however. It could happen with any of three lines running dining cars through to Penn Station. SAL, ACL, or Southern. I don't remember any through C&O diners to Penn, however. Trains of 24-28 cars were handled by one GG-1. This might be two head-end cars, two heavyweight PRR parlors, PRR diner, seven P70 coaches, then the complete Budd lightweight "Southerner" with coaches, diner, and obs, tacked on behind.
Concerning the five percent estimate, this refers to passengers traveling between the end points of New York and its own boroughs and Washington DC, and I stand by that estimate. I had already made the point that the B&O got a very good share of the New Jersey to Washington market, and of course there were all the intermediate points as well, where the B&O did far better than just 5%. Some of its excellent trains, not the Royal Blue itself, stopped for example at the popular suburb of Jenkintown, and anyone from the northern suburbs of Philly might prefer to park at Jenkintown and ride in one air-conditioned car, usually with reclining seats, to Washington, rather than boarding a non-air-conditioned commuter local at his suburban stop and changing at 30th street to a less comfortable and possibly not air-conditioned train there for the trip to Washington. In 1947 and 1948 the frequent travelers compaired the comfort of the B&O coaches with that of the PRR (and NH) Parlors!
In 1952, the new Budd Congressionals and Senator brought real class to the PRR NY-Washington service, really for the first time. Before that we used to call it "The Big Red Subway." Of course, for a teenage railfan, standing on the rear vestibule of GG-1 hauled express going down the corridor and reaching speeds of 100mph in 1947 and 1948, well one didn't worry about reclining seats or air-conditioning if one planned to spend most of the trip on the back platform! One simply worried whether the trainmen would let you stay there. (This was long before the NYCTA started painting its A-division fleet red.)
daveklepper wrote:Concerning the five percent estimate, this refers to passengers traveling between the end points of New York and its own boroughs and Washington DC, and I stand by that estimate. I had already made the point that the B&O got a very good share of the New Jersey to Washington market, and of course there were all the intermediate points as well, where the B&O did far better than just 5%. Some of its excellent trains, not the Royal Blue itself, stopped for example at the popular suburb of Jenkintown, and anyone from the northern suburbs of Philly might prefer to park at Jenkintown and ride in one air-conditioned car, usually with reclining seats, to Washington, rather than boarding a non-air-conditioned commuter local at his suburban stop and changing at 30th street to a less comfortable and possibly not air-conditioned train there for the trip to Washington. In 1947 and 1948 the frequent travelers compaired the comfort of the B&O coaches with that of the PRR (and NH) Parlors!
Elizabeth, NJ (on the Jersey Central) was also a B&O stop. From the folks I've talked to that
used the B&O service there, it was quite convenient.
Of course you are right. Elizabeth was a more convenient spot for most Jersey sububs than was Pennsy's Newark, and suburban trains of the CNJ and PRR (its station directly above) gave convenient connections.
Remember that the Royal Blue Line really consisted mostly of through B&O trains to the west. These outnumbered the JC - Washington Trains. In 1947-1948, before the end of B&O passenger service north of Baltimore, the Capitol Limited, Diplomat, National Limited, and Shenandoa, all started their runs at Jersey City, not Washington. And all, including the Capitol Limited, carried passengers from Jersey City to Wilmington, Baltimore, and Washington. CRRNJ-Reading tickets were also honored (except possibly on the Capitol Limited and the Royal Blue) to the B&O Philadelphia station, but were not honored on the buses to and from Manhattan and Brooklyn, and the B&O did not sell JC - Philly tickets. The Reading of course had its own JC - Philly Readng Terminal service, with only the CRRNJ Ferry connections to Manhattan.
The PRR was quite different with dedicated NY - Washington trains making up about 2/3 - 3/4 of the service, the rest through trains from Boston via the Hell Gate Bridge. And all, including the Congressional, carried NY - Philly passengers. Some through trains to the west would carry passengers to N. Philadelphia, but not the Broadway. If you wanted to go to Lancaster PA on the Broadway, you bought a roomette to Harrisburg. The General would not take you to Philadelphia, but at least at one time would take you to Paoli!
daveklepper wrote: The through sleeper from Penn Station to Jackson and Shreveport was probably a heavyweight 12 section one drawing room, and someone can check a 1947 or 1948 Official Guide. Interested in learning just which Southern and IC trains it ran on.
I don't have a late 1940's OG but my 1954 issue lists the NY-Jackson-Shreveport sleeper as 10 Sec, 1 Drawing Rm, 2 Compartment and it was probably the same in the '47-'48 time period. The car ran between Shreveport, Jackson and Meridian in IC No. 208, the Northeastern Limited, and No. 205, the Southwestern Limited. The Pelican, SR No. 41 (southbound) and No. 42 (northbound), carried it between Meridian and Washington. I'm not sure but I think the Pelican ran between Washington and NY as PRR No. 194 (northbound) and No.143 (southbound).
The May 1945 Guide lists a 12-section-Drawing-room from Shreveport to New York. Southern No.42 Meredian to Bristol, N&W No.42 to Lynchburg, Southern No. 42 to Washington, Penna. No. 122 to New York.
The Feb 1952 Guide lists the 10-section, 1-Drawing-room, 2-Compartments car. IC to Meridian, AGSRR Meridan to Chattanooga, Southern to Roanoke, N&W to Washington, Southern to Baltimore, Penna. to New York.
The AGSRR was the Alabama Great Southern Railroad and part of the Southern-Railway System, but did the Southern ever go to Baltimore?
The war was over by this time which might have caused a change in car type. Don't have anything else between those dates.
Art
The N&W to Washington and the Southern to Baltimore is definitely a misprint.
All Southern trains during WWII that had through sleepers to NY turned them over to the PRR in Washington. No exceptions.
The N&W never ever ran to Wshington.
1952 was after the war but it's still a misprint. The Southern timetable in the same Guide shows the Pelican on the same schedule that the IC has in it's condensed timetable.
The 1952 Southern condensed schedule: PRR from NY to Washington, then Southern to Lynchburg, N&W to Bristol, Southern through Chattanooga, Birmingham and Tuscaloosa to Meridian, and IC to Shreveport.
The 1945 Southern condensed schedule routing is the same as the 1952 routing, which is not at all strange.
Often wonder how the printers handled corrections or schedule changes in the Guide. Must have been quite a job.
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