What kind of trains use Armour Yellow?

[al-in-chgo]

 

A recent post on TRAINS - Gen'l Disc. mentions that the UP's livery is Armour Yellow, [some shade of ]red, and [some shade of] grey.

Two questions:  1) How to account for the Anglican "u" in "Armour"?  Does it have something to do with British heraldry, or American meatpacking?

2) What were (are) the names of the shades of UP red and grey, and

3) does the three colors' use by premerger UP go back how far?  I'm especially wondering if pre-World War II UP varnish used the three-tone livery, or generally when it became common.

Okay, I wound up with three questions, but I bet there are people on this site who can nail it, or perhaps direct me to a UP lovers' site of some sort.

Best, al s.

 

[daveklepper]

I'll attempt to answer only one question.

Before WWII most UP passenger equipment was the sort of darker-than-olive green used by most railroads.  The first application of yellow was on the City of Silanas (spelling?), the first diesel (really distilate) articulated lightweight streamliner. built by Pullman, and contemporary of the Burlington's Pioneer Zephyr (1934).   The UP bought additional articulated lightweight trains, also yellow, and then lightweight coaches for regular passenger service.  With the inauguration of the City of San Francisco and the City of Los Angeles, some SP and C&NW equipment was also painted yellow, specifically for through service with the UP.  After WWII, lightweight equipment generally replaced heavyweight, and the heavyweight equipment that remained was rebuilt and also painted yellow.  C&NW and SP equipment not usually used in through service with the UP was not painted Armour yellow; schemes on the C&NW were generally a pale yellow and green, and the SP used two-tone grey, "Daylight" red, orange, black, and white, and silver with red letterboard.  When the UP service was switched from the C&NW to the Milwaukee, the latter started painting all its passenger equipment, except for Chicago suburban service, to match the UP's.

[IRONROOSTER]

Many English words use 'our' where we use 'or', i.e. honour vs honor.  When you see it in this country it usually means an Englishman was involved somehow.

Enjoy

Paul 

[passengerfan]

The Armour yellow goes back to the first UP streamliner but initially the other primary color was Leaf Brown with the red lettering and striping, this lasted until the City of Denver trains when the Harbor Mist Grey was introduced and has been part of the UP ever since. Hope this answers your questions.

[al-in-chgo]

The Armour yellow goes back to the first UP streamliner but initially the other primary color was Leaf Brown with the red lettering and striping, this lasted until the City of Denver trains when the Harbor Mist Grey was introduced and has been part of the UP ever since. Hope this answers your questions.

 

Thanks so much for your erudition and knowledge!  Since I've yet to see any "transitional" color photos of liveries or consists (e.g., seen lots of WWII-era N. Platte Canteen pix, all B&W), I could have stewed on that for a while.  If the UP was acting like most other big RR's of the mid-Twentieth Century, the corp. probably had a glam name for what looks to me like a basic medium-tone red stripe.  But nomenclature is not a biggie for me; historical context is and I learned some vital facts.  Thank you very much!   al s., chgo

 

[wjstix]

The C&NW used "English stagecoach yellow", a very dark yellow, as it's main color. The pale yellow or "Zito yellow" came much later in the 1980's. I don't think CNW's colors were related to them hauling UP trains to Chicago, although when they lost that job to the Milwaukee, the Milwaukee did change from orange to yellow for their passenger cars.

Many railroads in the nineteenth century (before Pullman green became the accepted color for passenger cars) painted their equipment yellow, passenger cars and even boxcars. It was usually more a pale yellow or straw color closer to depot buff. White or cream was common too, I think several railroads ran a "White Mail" of white or cream colored cars. So when CNW started using yellow and green on their streamlined 400 in 1939 for example,  I think they were really going back to an 1800's scheme. I'm not sure if the UP's yellow was a renewal of an old color or not??

BTW I wonder if "Armour" yellow is related to the Armour meat co., maybe they used that color a lot in the past or something?? Otherwise, "Zito" yellow on the CNW was named after a RR official, maybe someone named Armour came up with that shade of yellow??

[passengerfan]

The Armour yellow goes back to the first UP streamliner but initially the other primary color was Leaf Brown with the red lettering and striping, this lasted until the City of Denver trains when the Harbor Mist Grey was introduced and has been part of the UP ever since. Hope this answers your questions.

 

Thanks so much for your erudition and knowledge!  Since I've yet to see any "transitional" color photos of liveries or consists (e.g., seen lots of WWII-era N. Platte Canteen pix, all B&W), I could have stewed on that for a while.  If the UP was acting like most other big RR's of the mid-Twentieth Century, the corp. probably had a glam name for what looks to me like a basic medium-tone red stripe.  But nomenclature is not a biggie for me; historical context is and I learned some vital facts.  Thank you very much!   al s., chgo

 

[passengerfan]

Actually there were two reds the UP used one named Scarlet for the striping and a Dupont Bright Red for the lettering but darned if I can see any difference. Must be my eyes as I get older. Anyway thats my story and I am sticking to it.

[daveklepper]

I can assure you that in addition to its yellow and green streamline equipment, and locomotives, the C&NW also had passenger equipment and a few locomotives on its roster with paint jobs identacle to the UP's streamline equipment for use in the Chicago - California service.   I saw this equipment.  I have been told that when the UP switched to the Milwaukee, much of the C&NW UP yellow equipment was sold to the UP.   Also I know that some C&NW equipment was sold to the Burlington and painted silver to match the stainless steel Budd Burlington equipment.  Rode one of these ex-C&NW coaches on the Q in 1969 and recognized it from riding it or seeing in its C&NW days, but unsure whether it was one of the yellow, red, and grey jobs or one of the yellow and green ones.

If I remember correctly, the Milwaukee never did repaint their older suburban orange and red coaches into UP yellow, and they bought some stainless steel gallery cars, possibly still running on METRA, which had some red, possibly red lettering or silver or white on red background.

In the latter days of the UP City service, occasionally a wrongly painted SP car would make it all the way to Chicago, but usually they were restricted to Oakland-Ogden service.  Once rode such a sleeper and once rode such a coach.   Both silver with red letterboard.   Sometimes the two-tone grey cars were used between Oakland and Ogden.   I understand the UP was always upset if the SP did not provide a correctly painted car for through service east of Ogden. 

[al-in-chgo]

Actually there were two reds the UP used one named Scarlet for the striping and a Dupont Bright Red for the lettering but darned if I can see any difference. Must be my eyes as I get older. Anyway thats my story and I am sticking to it.

 

But isn't it cool knowing the exact color names?   So fanciful, historic or allusive.  I suppose today that the role of "scarlet" striping paint has been usurped by reflective red tape -- at least on a lot of the UP rolling stock I see at Rochelle.  But still it's nice to know the exact nomenclature that is or was used.

Your story certainly "sticks" with me, and once again I am grateful to you.  Thanks!  allen s.

[wjstix]

Dave - yes you are correct the CNW did have some cars painted identical to the UP scheme, I've seen pictures of them up in Duluth(!!). Plus some early passenger diesels were around that had both UP and CNW heralds on them!!

My point was that the CNW didn't start using yellow when the UP started using yellow for their streamlined trains in the thirties, CNW had used yellow and green off and on since the 1800's...unlike the Milwaukee, who only started using yellow when they replaced CNW as UP's partner to Chicago in 1955.

[Anonymous]

The Cedar Rapids & Iowa City (CRANDIC) has a livery that includes a shade of yellow that looks pretty close to UP's.  Their overall paint scheme looks somewhat similar to UP's as well.

[West Coast S]

The orginal version of Armour yellow ( as we know it) first appeared on the M10000, the contrasting color was leaf brown, overall the leaf brown had a tendency to fade quickly in proportion to the yellow. Thus, so called Harbor Mist Grey was subsutitued (which could vary a great deal in shade) soon became the standard by 1940. Legend has it the name Armour Yellow was dervived from the Armoured Meat Packing Company who's reefer fleet wore a similar yellow.

SP in 1955 was seeking to simplify paint inventory, high on the hit list was the Daylight scheme, with numerous pooled cars among the UP, the vast majority recieved Armour Yellow, with lettering and stripping following UP standards. SP also eliminated indvidule car names at the same time.

In 1955 UP cancelled its long standing agreements with the C&NW for a variety of reasons, Milwaukee was the pround bidder to forward the City fleet to Chicago. At first not much changed, soon the Milwaukee noticed that Armour Yellow was easier to maintain, an important consideration when harsh weather prevent frequent washings. In 1956 Milwaukee equiptment began to display UP colors with slight variations in lettering type.

Other roads had small sleeper fleets, Wabash, Pennsy, N&W for example also wore Armour Yellow for run through service.

C&NW was aslo inspired by the UP example, but medium green was chosen as the contrasting color..

 

Dave

[wjstix]

C&NW was aslo inspired by the UP example, but medium green was chosen as the contrasting color..

Dave

It's correct that for at least much of the 'heavyweight era' the CNW used Pullman green on it's passenger cars, before that it used yellow and green. Of course, we don't have color pics to go by, but as an example, here is a postcard (from the CNW Hist. Soc. website) which appears to have hand-tinted (a common occurance at the time) showing a CNW train in 1909:

http://www.cnwhs.org/memberphotos/displayimage.php?album=18&pos=1

You can see the cars in the foreground are clearly yellow and green. In this pic from 1915:

http://www.cnwhs.org/memberphotos/displayimage.php?album=21&pos=77

It appears to me that the cars aren't dark green but a lighter color...like yellow. Interpreting B&W photos can be tricky of course!!

The Milwaukee did something similar, they used orange and maroon on passenger cars until the 20's, then switched to Pullman green for a few years, then went back to orange and maroon in 1934 when they introduced the streamlined Hiawatha. The CNW did basically the same thing, when they streamlined the 400 in 1939 they returned to using yellow and green as they had before. It's very possible the connection with the UP was a factor in doing so, but they weren't simply copying the UP scheme only using green instead of gray, they were going back to their old colors dating back to the 19th century.

 

 

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Wabash also had some coaches painted in Armour Yellow for the "City of St. Louis" pool.  I saw one (still lettered Wabash) on the "Blue Bird" arriving at Dearborn Station in 1969.  Two Pullman 22-roomette sleepers (Bedford Inn & Coatesville Inn, IIRC) normally assigned to PRR were painted Armour Yellow and assigned to the "City of Denver" as competition for the Slumbercoaches on the "Denver Zephyr".

[Anonymous]

no train engines ever used armour yellow.  they all used desiel  or in the newest engines  cooking grease  [ grin ].

[West Coast S]

Technically speaking, streamlined 4-8-2  7002 did recieve Armour Yellow (and lef brown)accents when in forty-niner service, odd considering the consits was two-tone grey and gunmetal with not a trace of yellow.  

Dave 

[wjstix]

Well, it's not Armour yellow but here's a steam engine in "English Stagecoach Yellow", a 4-6-2 formerly in Minnesota 400 service but shown here later on it appears a mail train....

http://www.cnwhs.org/memberphotos/displayimage.php?album=5&pos=8

[jeffhergert]

The Cedar Rapids & Iowa City (CRANDIC) has a livery that includes a shade of yellow that looks pretty close to UP's.  Their overall paint scheme looks somewhat similar to UP's as well.

I've read somewhere, in Trains I think, that when the Crandic purchased their first diesels they chose the UP scheme for theirs.  Over the years, the shades of color the Crandic, to my senses anyway, have changed although the scheme is still similar to UP's.

Jeff

[espeefoamer]

Southern Pacific cars assigned to the City of San Francisco were also painted armour yellow.There was at least one 3/4length dome lounge in armour yellow.

[espeefoamer]

Wabash,and later,N&W,had UP painted cars for use on the City of St. Louis.

[arkansasrailfan]

Armour yellow came from Armour meatpacking, and the Santa Fe used the same color on their equipment.
PRR, Wabash, MP, SP MILW, CNW all had cars painted in the UP scheme.(not all of them-duh)

According to the UPHS Streamliner, UP had Armour grey, Red Scotchlite(3M) for any red, and Armour yellow.
For the striping you see on the hood, I think it was Oxide Red(must check mag. for exact color)

[binder001]

For good details on the UP paints see;

http://www.utahrails.net/up/up-diesel-paint.php

This is part of Don Strack's excellent web site and covers UP diesel painting over the years.  Use the menu to move up and you will find a treasure trove of info on RRs in the Utah area with a TON of great stuff on UP.  In the page noted above he looks at the colors used and when.

By the way - UP is a very standardized railroad.  There was a reprint of UP Common Standard #22 several years ago that had information on the UP paints of the first half of the 20th century.  In have a 1981-vintage set of up "Color Drift Control Cards" that were used to check batches of paint from vendors.  These are the "official" shades of Armour Yellow, Striping Red, Harbormist Gray and Aluminum (UP never painted truck frames "silver" - they were Aluminum)

Gary Binder 

 

 

[al-in-chgo]

Armour yellow came from Armour meatpacking, and the Santa Fe used the same color on their equipment.
PRR, Wabash, MP, SP MILW, CNW all had cars painted in the UP scheme.(not all of them-duh)

According to the UPHS Streamliner, UP had Armour grey, Red Scotchlite(3M) for any red, and Armour yellow.
For the striping you see on the hood, I think it was Oxide Red(must check mag. for exact color)

Aha!  That explains Truman Capote's remark in the book IN COLD BLOOD about the "Yellow Santa Fe trains streaking down the track."  I had thought of ATSF varnish only as streamlined, but were there day-coaches in yellow?  Or boxcars? 

[daveklepper]

Capote was mixed up.   He saw UP trains and assumed they were AT&SF.

Or was he looking at a string of refrigorator cars pulled by diesels?

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Capote was mixed up.   He saw UP trains and assumed they were AT&SF.

Or was he looking at a string of refrigorator cars pulled by diesels?

I'm sure that Truman Capote was holding a valid artistic license when he wrote "In Cold Blood".

[al-in-chgo]

Capote was mixed up.   He saw UP trains and assumed they were AT&SF.

Or was he looking at a string of refrigorator cars pulled by diesels?

Not sure, but in late 1959, when Capote went to Kansas to research the book that became IN COLD BLOOD, he took the Super Chief to and from Garden City Kansas, county seat of the murdered Clutter family. 

Maybe he DID see some kind of refrig. car or, as has been suggested, pulled out his artistic license.  (Streaking silver sounds just as impressive as streaking yellow to me, though, if not more so.)  Was ATSF using blue lettering on yellow freight diesels at that point?  - a.s.

 

[daveklepper]

Blue lettering on yellow and black diesels with more black than yellow if I remember correctly.

[daveklepper]

For anyone interested:  All Jerusalem local transit, both the Arab owner-driver bus network and the Egged Cooperative, are painting the hand-hold stanchions, full height on the floor-to-ceiling versions, seat-back handholds where applicable, yellow, as a safety measure I guess.  And the color looks to me like Armour yellow exactly!  And today I rode the 75 line from the stop nearest the Yeshiva, not far from the upper terminal near the Augusta Victoria historic Lutheran hospital and church, to the Hebron Old City Gate (name of the Gate, sometimes also called the Damascus Gate), the lower terminal, and the owner-driver not only had painted all the stantions and handholds this yellow, but had replaced the window curtains with what looks like Armour Yellow curtains!

Uncle Pete's influence shure shows up in strange places?

[wjstix]

For anyone interested:  All Jerusalem local transit, both the Arab owner-driver bus network and the Egged Cooperative, are painting the hand-hold stanchions, full height on the floor-to-ceiling versions, seat-back handholds where applicable, yellow, as a safety measure I guess.  And the color looks to me like Armour yellow exactly!  And today I rode the 75 line from the stop nearest the Yeshiva, not far from the upper terminal near the Augusta Victoria historic Lutheran hospital and church, to the Hebron Old City Gate (name of the Gate, sometimes also called the Damascus Gate), the lower terminal, and the owner-driver not only had painted all the stantions and handholds this yellow, but had replaced the window curtains with what looks like Armour Yellow curtains!

Uncle Pete's influence shure shows up in strange places?

Keep in mind that yellow was used before there were trains around, the CNW yellow (which is very close to UP's yellow) is "English Stagecoach Yellow" and was around for many years. Most likely UP similarly picked up the color from stagecoaches or similar operations. (Many of the first U.K. railroad cars were built by stagecoach builders.)

BTW for many years, U.K. diesel and electric engines have been required to have their noses painted a similar dark yellow color for safety reasons.