Passenger Train History question

[passengerfan]

Although the Turquoise Room was made famous by the Stars it was actually just an extension of the dining car during peak travel periods and was treated as so. With the Super Chief assigned a 36 seat Dining car many times additional dining space was necessary so the Turquoise Room was used for this purpose especially during summers and the Holiday seasons.  

[daveklepper]

When I rode the (still) Super Chief in the autumn of 1971, the Turquoise Room was definitely NOT loocked.   I don't know whether this was an oversite on the particular run or if the closed door policy arrived later.

[Southwest Chief]

According to the book, Santa Fe Streamliners, The Chiefs and their Tribesmen by Karl Zimmerman, the reason Santa Fe took back the Chief name was due to Amtrak's proposed plan to run the Super Chief as two sections.  One of these sections would have a passenger capacity of 300 but only have one 36 seat dining car.  This according to John S. Reed, Santa Fe's president at the time, would "lower the quality  of service to a level hardly recognizable by those accustomed to past Santa Fe standards."  So the "Chief" name was taken back and it became the Southwest Limited.  The Texas Chief also lost it's name and became the Lone Star.

It wasn't until Amtrak's plan to launch a new and improved version of Southwest Limited in 1984-85, that the Santa Fe once again allowed Amtrak to use the Chief name.  Thus the current day Southwest Chief was born.

Most of the nicer amenities of this "new and improved" service dating to the mid 80s have disappeared over the years.  The afternoon dining car games and sleeping car gift baskets have long been gone.  And more recently the Indian guide has been removed.  Also eggs and other cooked to order meals have been eliminated.  But thankfully Amtrak has decided to keep a separate dining car and lounge on this train for now.  And even though the meals are premade and heated in a microwave, they are still surprisingly tasty.  I have a hard time thinking of a better way to enjoy a long cross country trip then to sit back with a good meal watching the country wiz by while conversing with the interesting passengers and friendly attendants you meet in the dining car.  So to me in some respects the Chief is still the Chief   ...but it's not even close to the Super Chief 

[timz]

That supposedly is why the AT&SF did not let Amtrak use the terms "Super" or "Chief" in referring to its Chi - LA run.  I think it was the "Southwest Limited" for years and years.

 Amtrak did call their train the Super Chief until around 1974, when SFe withdrew permission. Don't recall why-- until then the train had had two diners and two lounges, and probably Amtrak planned to remove one of those cars?

[al-in-chgo]

Correction:  The Turquoise Room did make it into the Amtrak era.   I rode the Super Chief, still with that name, the autumn of 1971, and the Pleasure Dome car and the Turquoise Room were still in the consist.   The only change from the pre 1May days was the use of five ex-Sante Fe F-units (F-7's or F-9's in an A-B-B-B-A configuration) instead of two SPD-45's that I remembered (correctly?) for AT&SF operation.   And the train ran on time.   As in the pre-Amtrak era it ran with the high-level Sante Fe cars as coaches.   I do not remember if the transition car (and there was one) was used so coach passengers could use the Super Chief diner, but I think a separate high-level diner was provided as in the pre-Amtrak era.  

Amtrak inherited the Super's Turquoise Room, but was it functional?  IIRC the first thing Amtrak did was lock the room, incurring the then-Santa Fe's wrath.  That supposedly is why the AT&SF did not let Amtrak use the terms "Super" or "Chief" in referring to its Chi - LA run.  I think it was the "Southwest Limited" for years and years.  Only in the past few years did Santa Fe (or wd it be BNSF?) countenance inclusion of "Chief" into the train's title:  "Southwest Chief." 

[passengerfan]

Beginning January 15, 1954 the Santa Fe assigned the four east coast through sleeping cars to the Super Chief and the Chief was downgraded with the addition of coaches. The Santa Fe supplied all sleeping cars for the through service. East of Chicago the through cars operated in all Pullman trains as well. Two arrived and departed Chicago as part of the NYC Twentieth Cerntury Limited to and from New York. Another New York car arrived and departed Chicago on the PRR Broadway Limited and the fourth through sleeping car arrived and departed Chicago for Washington DC in the B&O Capitol Limited.

The following is a typical Super Chief Consist for the time period you are looking for.

 

37L EMD F7A 1,500 hp Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

37A EMD F7B 1,500 hp Diesel Passenger Booster Unit

37B EMD F7B 1,500 hp Diesel Passenger Booster Unit

37C EMD F7A 1,500 hp Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

3450 Storage Mail Car (Kansas City - Los Angeles)

96 60' Railway Post Office Car (La Junta - Los Angeles)

3554 Baggage Car

REGAL SPA 4-Compartment 2-Drawing Room 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car (New York - Los Angeles via PRR Broadway Limited east of Chicago)

PINE COVE 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car (New York - Los Angeles via NYC Twentieth Century Limited east of Chicago)

REGAL ARMS 4-Compartment 2-Drawing Room 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car (New York - Los Angeles via NYC Twentieth Century Limited  east of Chicago)

PINE PASS 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car (Washington - Los Angeles via B&O Capitol Limited)

505 16-Seat Pleasure Dome Bar 28-Seat Lounge 12-Seat Turquoise Room Car

605 36-Seat Dining Car

1343 19-Crew Dormitory 28-Seat Lounge Car

REGAL DOME 4-Compartment 2-Drawing Room 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Cars

PALM SUMMIT 10-Roomette 6- Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

PALM LEAF 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

VISTA CANYON 1-Double Bedroom 4-Drawing Room 17-Seat Lounge Observation.

Hope this helps,

Al

[Gunneral]

Hi,

You will find a very comprehensive write up on the Super Chief, circa 1951-1953, with full consist info and pix in MRR Volume 60, #8, August 1993 issue.

Hope this helps you!

[Anonymous]

Add "tavern-lounge" to the list of names used around  the country for such equipment. Note, there was no "national" system such as Amtrak, so railroads were free to call "anything anything" and often did.

The turquoise  room was located directly  underneath the pleasure dome. Persons  in the aisle walking  past the turquois room had to step down a foot or two, then step up again after they had passed it.

[Anonymous]

Not sure if this got  answered or not, but yes, the OG and the old timetables did give the very specific information about sleeping cars, i.e. numers and  types of rooms, destinations, set-out info. yes, indeed.

[daveklepper]

Correction:  The Turquoise Room did make it into the Amtrak era.   I rode the Super Chief, still with that name, the autumn of 1971, and the Pleasure Dome car and the Turquoise Room were still in the consist.   The only change from the pre 1May days was the use of five ex-Sante Fe F-units (F-7's or F-9's in an A-B-B-B-A configuration) instead of two SPD-45's that I remembered (correctly?) for AT&SF operation.   And the train ran on time.   As in the pre-Amtrak era it ran with the high-level Sante Fe cars as coaches.   I do not remember if the transition car (and there was one) was used so coach passengers could use the Super Chief diner, but I think a separate high-level diner was provided as in the pre-Amtrak era.  

[al-in-chgo]

Jim and Al have mentioned that the Official Guide does not indicate how many head-end cars are carried nor how many coaches are carried on a mixed class train. 

But they do list the accommodations available in the various sleepers, when they can be occupied, where they are picked up, and where they are set out.

 As a ticket seller, the Guide was consulted to find out what our customers could request and what else was available in the same car (lounge, cafe, etc.).  The Super Chief of June 1954, shown below, is interesting because they mention a Club Diner from Los Angeles to San Diego.  Why,  I wonder, since all the cars of the Super Chief terminate at Los Angeles and there is no Club Car being carried from Chi to LA.

/[/img]

The Chi - L.A. Super Chief did indeed offer drink and food; it appears that the celebrated Turquoise Room occupied one part of a car (a fairly small part), and the rest was made up of a "Pleasure Dome Lounge."  "Lounge" was a long-accepted railroad euphemism for a bar, just as it was and to some extent is on land (consider the term "lounge lizard").  Some railroads used the term "lounge," others preferred the more straightforward "bar car."

With the alcohol and private-catering tasks confined to the "Pleasure Dome" car, that left room for (apparently) a full-length Fred Harvey diner, although judging by the consist of this all-first-class train, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if it were more like 1-3/4 cars worth of dining and the rest kitchen.  

The term "club car" generally means a bar car, though it has a rather hazy history, probably harking back to privately-owned cars.  On the extra-fare Super Chief, everyone "belonged," of course.  Apparently the corridor-like L.A. - San Diego run called for less ample catering; the term "Club Diner" gets in the notion of food and drink, which is what people needed to hear.  Perhaps the car was like the old "Diner-Lounge" on Norfolk & Western's "Pelican" in the late Sixties, which consisted of about half a car's worth of white-tablecloth dining tables, and at the other end a padded bar, behind which was a galley whence issued both drinks and food.

 

 

 

 

[Anonymous]

Jim and Al have mentioned that the Official Guide does not indicate how many head-end cars are carried nor how many coaches are carried on a mixed class train. 

But they do list the accommodations available in the various sleepers, when they can be occupied, where they are picked up, and where they are set out.

 As a ticket seller, the Guide was consulted to find out what our customers could request and what else was available in the same car (lounge, cafe, etc.).  The Super Chief of June 1954, shown below, is interesting because they mention a Club Diner from Los Angeles to San Diego.  Why,  I wonder, since all the cars of the Super Chief terminate at Los Angeles and there is no Club Car being carried from Chi to LA.

/[/img]

[al-in-chgo]

The OG does have its limitations as to how many cars of each category were involved, but its anecdotal qualities are wonderful.  You can see how many, if any, advertisements for trains (passenger and freight) the RR puts in its pages.  I recall that the OG would list the railroad's own names for its passenger equipment (i.e., "chair cars" instead of coaches; "lounge" instead of bar car).  You can look at connections; in that era it was either the Super Chief or the Chief that dropped off a sleeping car in the middle of the night where it was taken to the edge of the Grand Canyon pre-dawn (a private company runs that route now but there is no attempt to synchronize it with the movements of the Southwest Chief). You can look for mixed freights; I know the UP had a bunch of them but aren't sure about Santa Fe. You can note how often the Super Chief lingered at a division stop so that the Navajo (or is it Hopi?) could sell silver and turquoise accessories; turquoise was not nearly so expensive fifty years ago as it is now.  You can check sample fares and eat your heart out. 

The Super Chief was indeed very special. It had hosted tour guides; Amtrak tries to continue the tradition today but I've been told the results are iffy (and of course they never ran the Turquoise Room). By all means do not forget to put the Turquoise Room in the diner; it was a staple on the Super Chief.  Celebrities like Bing Crosby and Doris Day who preferred taking the train in the Fifties would round up a few intimates and book the Turquoise Room for dinner; Doris Day's as-told-to autobiography calls Turquoise Room food "delicious" but that of other RR's' dining cars "insipid." 

It also helps to remember that even in your relatively narrow time frame, some slack was involved.  Typically, as today with airlines, reservations peaked for the first class at holidays and for the El Cap when the flocks of Boy Scouts going out to Philmont peaked.  Unlike today's airlines and unlike today's eqiupment-stressed Amtrak, extra space could be ordered out with relative ease; so that a Saturday train might easily be fifty percent longer than a Tuesday or Wednesday train.  Sometimes extra sections had to be run; depending on the railroad and its motive power, it can get tricky to haul more than 12-15 passenger cars, if for no reason than small-town depots had limited-length platforms. 

You might get some interesting first-hand experience if you're interested by posting in "Classic Trains."  You will probably get more of a response from El Capitan veterans because so many of them were teenaged Boy Scouts in the Fifties and are alive today.  But, though more than 35 years ago, you are likely to hear fond reminiscences from folks who took the Super Chief too.

- al

[jimrice4449]

I couldn't find the MR article on the Super Chief which might indicate that it was a pre-2003 issue that was lost in a house fire.   Dining Car's consist is consistant to one I've got, unfortunately w/o a date or source reference.   Walthers offers cars for the complete Super Chief train, althought their 4-4-2 is a pre-WWII car that differs slightly from the era you want.

[jimrice4449]

This situation ilustrates the big drawback to relying on the Official Guide for specific train consists.   First the equipment lists don't show head end cars (in the case of the Super a 60' full RPO and a baggage car).   While they will show types of Pullmans and even the stations they run between for some RRs and trains the Santa Fe isn't one of them: they only show "standard Pullmans" not the types or how many of each.   Also they typically will show only "coaches" for those trains carrying them w/ no indication of how many (not applicable to the all-Pullman Super but a consideration for most trains)   A few years back MR ran a feature on the Super Chief I believe in an annual "Great Trains" feature in January.   I'll check back tomorrow and if nobody's come up w/ the specific issue and/or a consist I'll look it up in my mag-file.  (w/ dial-up it takes too long to log off, open the mag file for the info and then log back on...past my bed-time just now)

[overall]

Thanks to all who responded. I see an Official Guide purchase in my future. Thanks again,

George

[al-in-chgo]

 .  .  and old copies of the Official Guide can usually be found on e-bay and by using search engines.  The prices of copies from the early - mid Fifties will vary more depending on quality of book than on specific month or year.  - a.s.

 

[RRCharlie]

I have copies of 1949 and 1959 Official Railway Guides and could look up consists in them if that would be of assistance.

Mel Hazen; Jax, FL

[siberianmo]

Hello, 

I'm not a RR historian nor a Santa Fe aficionado, but perhaps this info may help you . . .

The best source for the information you are looking for is in the Official Guide of the Railways, a monthly publication puit out by the National Railway Publication Co. You can find this in any library that features a railroad section.

<this is from the Aug 1956 issue>

The Santa Fe operated two daily trains (one each way) between Chicago and Los Angeles under the Super Chief name in that era and the make up of cars (consist) changed depending upon the destination.

Also, through sleepers between New York City and LA  were handled by the PRR & NYC (Broadway Ltd & 20th Century Ltd) along with Washington DC via the B&O to Chicago were available.

So a typical consist might have been:

Sleepers - number would vary.

Turqoise Room - Pleasure Dome Lounge car (Chicago-LA)

Diner (Fred Harvey service) (Chicago-LA)

Lounge car (Chicago-lA)

There was also a Club Car from San Diego to LA (and return) for connecting service.

Observation Car w/4 drawing rooms & double bedroom.

Tom from "Our" Place on the Classic Trains Forum

[diningcar]

Will you settle for summer of 1953????

Storage Mail -- RPO -- sleeper (10-6) -- sleeper (10-6) -- sleeper (4-4-2) -- dome lounge --diner 36 seat -- lounge -dorm -- sleeper (4-4-2) -- Sleeper (4-4-2) -- Sleeper- lounge - observation (3-1) round end

This info from Fred Frailey's - A Quarter Century of Santa Fe Consists

 

[overall]

I need a real AT&SF historian to answer this;How many cars would the Super Chief have had in it's consists during, say, the fall of 1955? How many of each kind would it have had i.e How many sleepers, how many diners etc.

Thanks,

George