Todays "Photo O' The Day"

[Flintlock76]

And today we've got "Steam Down South," specifically the Gainesville Midland.

Makes me think of the "Hooterville Cannonball."

[Overmod]

M636C

If you have only two trailers paid for on a premium scheduled service, you run the train with one flat car....

Or perhaps if a good customer misses the cutoff for the main train, you follow with an old passenger-geared F unit instead of fancy modern FP45s ... 

[rcdrye]

Super C was more of a marketing tool than a service that was expected to pay its way.  Running the train even with only one car was understood by management as a way to demonstrate their commitment to premium service. Most customers were happy to settle for good basic service since the markup for Super C was quite high.  The dual-service F wasn't as big a step-down as you might think as Santa Fe still had lots of freight service F7s and F9s, and maintained the dual-service F3s and F7s to a very high standard.  The FP45s were all assigned to passenger service in the early years of Super C, and even the F45s had steam lines and spent a fair amount of time on Chiefs of various kinds.  If I remember right, the inaugural Super C got passenger pool U28CGs.

[Overmod]

rcdrye

The dual-service F wasn't as big a step-down as you might think

Not a step-down at all; if anything, much easier on the track than anything of that era with a C truck.  It's now probably paid for -- and if you  "improve" it, you can depreciate it all over again.  If you don't have to balance the high-speed power you didn't waste a high-speed high-horsepower unit on your most premium service.  How high did ATSF have Fs geared at that time?

[rcdrye]

Pretty sure the dual-service ones were geared 58:19 (89 MPH).  Some ATSF units had 56:21 gearing (102 MPH)  The FP45s were delivered with 57:20 (96 MPH) later changed to 58:19. For comparison Amtrak SDP40Fs and early F40PHs had 56:21 gears, later F40PHs had 57:20 gears.

[Jones1945]

rcdrye

Pretty sure the dual-service ones were geared 58:19 (89 MPH).  Some ATSF units had 56:21 gearing (102 MPH)  The FP45s were delivered with 57:20 (96 MPH) later changed to 58:19. For comparison Amtrak SDP40Fs and early F40PHs had 56:21 gears, later F40PHs had 57:20 gears.

102 mph is really impressive! Did ATSF have the "fastest geared" diesel unit in the classic train era?

[Erik_Mag]

Kratville's book on the UP Streamliners included UP drawings of the various locomotives used. The data included tractive effort vs speed and the data for many of the locomotive showed data for 100mph.

[rcdrye]

Jones1945

102 mph is really impressive! Did ATSF have the "fastest geared" diesel unit in the classic train era?

A lot of E-Units were geared for higher speeds.  There were claims of 117MPH and reasonably documented proof of around 112MPH.  Most of those were test runs with special protections.  E-Units had smaller wheels than Fs (36" vs 40") so needed higher gear ratios to hit the same speeds with the same motor RPM.  55:22 and even 54:23 were common E-unit gear ratios.

The top speeds were theoretical in any case.  A lot of western railroads geared lower, preferring "kick" to top speed.

Note that all classic-era EMD gear ratios total up to 77 teeth.  This predates EMC as a Westinghouse characteristic, so it's also found on Baldwins and WH-equipped FMs.  GE ratios were less consistent, with either 92 or 103 teeth.

[Overmod]

Keep in mind that the '117mph' and '120mph' as applied to diesel-electrics are also derived from gearing and traction-motor highest permissible rotational speed.  They do NOT represent the fastest the locomotive so equipped could effectively run, something that was occasionally (as, infamously, on the diesel-ignorant N&W with the TE-1) exploited by clever manufacturer sales language.

IIRC some of the early ATSF units were geared for 117mph, and Stan Repp gets over enthusiastic and says they got run upwards of 150mph (!!) although I'm sure not for too very long at a time... 

[SD70Dude]

Remember that from the early 1920s speeds of over 100 mph were a normal part of daily operations for passenger trains on a number of railroads across North America.  

Lines radiating out of Chicago were probably the fastest speedway, with lots of straight track and tough competition for passengers, especially the three way race to the Twin Cities, where each of the competitors rostered steam power capable of sustaining 110 mph or better.   

The new diesels had to keep up!

[Overmod]

SD70Dude

Remember that from the early 1920s speeds of over 100 mph were a normal part of daily operations for passenger trains on a number of railroads across North America.  

I doubt you'd find anything running even 100mph until the early 1930s when the necessary balance refinements came in.  Probably the first actual heavy modern locomotive to sustain 100mph with a train was the Milwaukee F6 (which otherwise doesn't look much like a fast engine at all) in what I recall was 1934 (this comes up in some of the Arrow-challenged discussions of 'first steam locomotive actually reaching 100' discussions in various places.

People tend to forget there were able competitors to the Hiawathas, with some of the North Western's Pacifics for the 400s being particularly noteworthy.  (On the other hand C&NW was notorious for having streamlined Hudsons that could not break 100 with a train nearly a decade into the 1930s... decidedly unlike the Burlington)

Also keep in mind that many classes with reputation for high speed were able to run 100mph regularly... but very little above that.  The only ATSF classes that were '110mph capable' were 4-8-4s.  PRR went so far as to start designing a Hiawatha-style 4-4-2 but decided two of them made better sense for what PRR would be running... and they were probably not wrong.

In any event the real high-speed trains nearly immediately depended on improving diesel power, and very few actual sustained-high-speed trains ran with it once there was a perceived marketing advantage.  It might have been interesting to see what might have been done with high speed had the 1947 ICC speed order not been enacted -- but it likely wouldn't have mattered in nearly any practical sense.

 

[SD70Dude]

Thanks for the correction, for some reason I had it in my head that several of the higher-speed steam designs dated from the mid-20s instead of a decade later. 

Certainly the potential and desire had been there ever since NYC 999's special run, and I'm sure that a number of individual engineers pushed locomotives past their designers' intended limits during efforts to make up time. 

Had higher speed North American passenger service remained profitable and achievable, in the absence of the 1947 order I think there would have been more development of lightweight trainsets to the point where the kinks were eventually ironed out, resulting in something similar to the British HST by the mid-1960s. 

Along those lines, it is worth noting that CN was getting good reliability out of their Turbos by the mid-70s, and seriously considered buying a few more.  That equipment demostrated the ability to safely run at well over 120 mph on the existing track structure, it was the level crossing issue and sharing the track with many other, slower trains that meant they were never scheduled to run much faster than the conventional equipment. 

[BaltACD]

Overmod

In any event the real high-speed trains nearly immediately depended on improving diesel power, and very few actual sustained-high-speed trains ran with it once there was a perceived marketing advantage.  It might have been interesting to see what might have been done with high speed had the 1947 ICC speed order not been enacted -- but it likely wouldn't have mattered in nearly any practical sense.

Unfortunately spilled blood caused the 1947 ICC order.  It is amazing how spilled blood creates restrictions on the actions that caused the blood to spill.

[Overmod]

BaltACD

Unfortunately spilled blood caused the 1947 ICC order.  It is amazing how spilled blood creates restrictions on the actions that caused the blood to spill.

And when you look at some of the things railroads were gearing up to do, the sense of that order becomes almost compelling -- 127mph on a single-track line signaled with semaphores being one of the memorable ones.

Remember that the Order only re-established the strict enforcement of the Esch Act provisions for automatic train stop/control that were enacted at the end of Federal Control.  It is perhaps telling that very few of the very fast train ideas actually 'survived' if they involved practical means of stopping 80mph trains in emergency... there have been arguments over the years about whether the perceived need for high-speed streamliners had died back by 1950 (when the Order began to take effect) or whether actually requiring railroads operating fast to do so safely had a chilling effect.

[pennytrains]

I think the pod person is on vacation. 

[Flintlock76]

deleted

[BaltACD]

With the revisions of the Trains forums - there is no longer a Picture of the Day for Classic Trains forum.

[Overmod]

BaltACD

With the revisions of the Trains forums - there is no longer a Picture of the Day for Classic Trains forum.

Buttons all over the new Classic Trains homepage that say 'Photo of the Day'.  Just nothing newer than that EBT doodlebug.

Could be that you can only get to the 'new' photos du jour with an Unlimited membership... won't really miss 'em if so, since it won't bring either Mike or Vince back.

[Flintlock76]

I don't think this is the first time "Photo Of..." has frozen.  Give it a few days and let's see what happens. 

Yeah, it's not the same without Mike or Vince!  

[BaltACD]

Overmod

 

BaltACD

With the revisions of the Trains forums - there is no longer a Picture of the Day for Classic Trains forum. 

Buttons all over the new Classic Trains homepage that say 'Photo of the Day'.  Just nothing newer than that EBT doodlebug. 

Could be that you can only get to the 'new' photos du jour with an Unlimited membership... won't really miss 'em if so, since it won't bring either Mike or Vince back.

I only follow options that get displayed on the forums. 

[Jones1945]

Overmod

Could be that you can only get to the 'new' photos du jour with an Unlimited membership... won't really miss 'em if so, since it won't bring either Mike or Vince back.

Well said......