http://trn.trains.com/Railroad%20News/News%20Wire/2011/03/Amtrak%20police%20chief%20bars%20Transportation%20Security%20Administration%20from%20some%20security%20operations.aspx
Could this be in response of many persons saying how much easier to get on trains than the present airport hassels? Sort of dummy down all transportation modes? Comments?
A terrorist sees the sign on the door and enters the station anyway. "I'll just tell them I have clothes in my backpack."
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
This could get right interesting - who's got the higher authority / pre-emptive jurisdiction over the Amtrak station and those inside of it ? Amtrak is a quasi-governmental corporation of the US government, but I'm not aware that status makes it a "sovereign" or independent of the federal government even as much as the individual states vis-a-via TSA's powers, unless somewhere there's a "Memo of Understanding" or a similar document that does so and spells out who's in charge . . . What - if anything - does the enabling statute for TSA and any subsequent regulations says about Amtrak ? Unfortunately, I doubt if O'Connor's opinion or rules, and/ or Amtrak's policy, will trump or negate any of that. I'm inclined to believe that TSA can do pretty much whatever it wants, even if it's way beyond what has been done before with Amtrak, and especially even if those screenings/ searches turns out to be un-Constitutionally illegal - of course, then TSA alone gets to be responsible for that, too: repeat after me, "Section 1983" violation of civil rights claim . . .
- Paul North.
'Bout time we take back ontrol of our country.
Norm
It sounds an awful lot to me that TSA is on a "fishing" expedition, to whit, "just how far can we go and just how far can we expand to justify our existance?" Just like any other out-of-control bureaucracy. Stand fast AMTRAK and stand fast Chief O'Connor! Don't let them push you around! It's YOUR road and YOUR property! You don't want them there, throw them out!
The American people have already tolerated the abusive TSA much longer than I ever thought they would. Oddly enough, you would probably get more public outrage if you did away with the abusive searches than you do because of them.
Whatever happened to the "land of the free and the home of the brave"?
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Phoebe Vet The American people have already tolerated the abusive TSA much longer than I ever thought they would. Oddly enough, you would probably get more public outrage if you did away with the abusive searches than you do because of them. Whatever happened to the "land of the free and the home of the brave"?
Sounds very much like the start of a classic 'Turf War' in the Bureaucratic sense. The TSA seems to have become the newest' Federal School Yard Bully', throwing it's weight around, til it gets trimmed back by being totally obnoxious to its partner agencies.
An sad observation that I've made over the years is the sizable number of Americans who would be willing to live in a police state for the safety it would provide. Many years ago, I met a person who thought that Franco's Spain was great because the police kept everybody in line.
You know, I'm reminded of the times when I was in the Marine Corps and occasionally someone from outside the command would show up and attempt to throw his weight around, and have to firmly but positively be put in his place by the CO, or one time by me. Sounds like somethings never change. To reiterate, YOU'RE the real cop, Chief O'Connor, don't let them get away with this on your beat!
Phoebe Vet Whatever happened to the "land of the free and the home of the brave"?
Constitution and Bill of Rights DOA 2011.
R.I.P.
Let's say I am a terrorist with something really lethal in a backpack. I arrive at the Savannah station, read the TSA notice on the door, and turn around thus putting the execution of my plans off for a day. The TSA has managed to shift the risk from one set of passengers to another, but it really has accomplished nothing to enhance the security of the system.
From satellite photos, it appears there is no physical barrier at Savannah to prevent me from accessing the platform without ever having entered the station. Perhaps I'm smart enough to have previously purchased my ticket and have no need to enter the station.
This is just another example of a bureaucracy mindlessly exercising power just to convince us they are doing something worthwhile.
I will choose freedom over the illusion of safety every time.
"Cowards die many times before their deaths. The valiant never taste of death but once."
from the play Julius Caesar by William Shakespeare.
Phoebe Vet I will choose freedom over the illusion of safety every time. "Cowards die many times before their deaths. The valiant never taste of death but once." from the play Julius Caesar by William Shakespeare.
Semper Fi!
( Let Norris and Crandell have a peaceful Sunday! )
"I will choose freedom over the illusion of safety every time."
I will have to agree with that. Personal safety is what you make it.
CSSHEGEWISCH An sad observation that I've made over the years is the sizable number of Americans who would be willing to live in a police state for the safety it would provide. Many years ago, I met a person who thought that Franco's Spain was great because the police kept everybody in line.
There's a saying that those who trade liberty for security will have neither. I still say that the more I see of TSA and Homeland Security, the more it reminds me of the KGB. But that's just the retired signals intellligence analyst in me talking......now I'm just a locomotive engineer.
Norm48327 "I will choose freedom over the illusion of safety every time." I will have to agree with that. Personal safety is what you make it.
I have a t-shirt that reads as follows:
Free societies aren't meant to be safe. They are meant to be free. Quit being a victim and learn to defend yourself.
One bright spot in all of this--at least the Amtrak top cop was outraged.
Like any street thug or playground bully, they (TSA) need to be put in their place once an a while.
One thing I'm wondering about is whether the TSA has done a proper threat analysis of rail passenger safety. I don't recall any stories of bombs placed aboard trains in the US as compared to two US airliners brought down by on-board bombs in the 1950's. It is much harder to hijack a train train than an airliner and even more difficult to use it as a weapon as three of the four planes hijacked on 9/11. Based on the history of the last couple of decades, rail passengers have more to fear from barge pilots and steel hauling truckers than terrorists on board the train.
- Erik
In the 39 years since his death the late J. Edgar Hoover has gotten a lot of critisism, some of it justified, some of it just political. But while he was director of the FBI, especially in its early years, he was very careful not to intrude his organization into local affairs or other areas where it shouldn't have been without a request for assistance. You see, he knew that many lawmakers were leery of a national police force, and of an intrusion of federal authority into local affairs. Would that some federal officials had some of his common sense and probity! You listening, TSA?
Quite interesting. Not much criticism around here of either TSA or DHS prior to 1-2009.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I have also been a strong and vocal critic of the USAPatriot Act, TSA, and The Department of Homeland Security since the day they were proposed.
...and I, too, used to work in the intelligence field.
erikem [snipped] It is much harder to hijack a train train than an airliner and even more difficult to use it as a weapon as three of the four planes hijacked on 9/11.
erikem Based on the history of the last couple of decades, rail passengers have more to fear from barge pilots and steel hauling truckers than terrorists on board the train. [emphasis added - PDN]
Nothing like actual history to inform the decision process. On the other hand, that limits us to the happenstance of past events - there's not much consideration of possible future actions = "failure of imagination", which is one reason why the 9-11 hijackings and use of the aircraft as weapons wasn't widely forseen or guarded against.
Phoebe Vet I have also been a strong and vocal critic of the USAPatriot Act, TSA, and The Department of Homeland Security since the day they were proposed. ...and I, too, used to work in the intelligence field.
Dave: As a person of integrity, you are one of the exceptions.
Oooh. This boils my bottom. My biggest complaint about the TSA is the lack of consistency. I used to travel a lot out of Chicago's Amtrak terminal in Union Station. On any weekday morning, more than 100k people pour out of our interurban Metra trains into the city. If you ever wanted to do anything nasty, there's your place. But security there is a joke. I can literally bring ANYTHING I want onto a train.
Now, am I scared? No, not really. What gets me is the inconsistency between airplanes and trains. If we have Homeland Security and the TSA costing +$1 billion yearly to protect only air travelers, that doesn't make sense. IMHO, none of it makes sense because the TSA is as ineffective as other plans. I once got stuck 20 minutes at SFO for a hard, rubber core in my shoes that took 7 people to sort out, stopped the security line for 20 minutes. For shoes. Security Theater, indeed.
Until then I will continue to keep my shoes on and take the train.
This thread is now on the front page of Reddit.
*Edit - It's also now featured on The Drudge Report.
You ask: One major unanswered question is: why? What purpose is being served other than to justify employment?
I answer- to constructively restrict restrict travel, to restrict privacy in travel by our out of control government. Land of the free?
IMHO we asked for this restricted travel. When someone does something bad to this country, we feel the need to do SOMETHING. If we did nothing, the populace would demand the heads of the government. Do I think the TSA is effective? No. Definitely not. But what was the alternative? What's the TRUE likelihood that planes will be hijacked and slammed into another building? Slim to none. But it justifies a lot of spending (a lot of private-sector spending, mind you).
An aside... I watched "Day One" about the making of the first atomic weapon. It was after Pearl Harbor that we basically decided that we needed to do that, even though Japan was nearly on its knees. But we needed to make them pay.
In this case, we ALL pay. Those who perpetrated that heinous act have won in that not only 5k people died, but the entire public lives in a constant state of fear and in that sense they've done a great number on all of us. But I don't know an alternative. I have to take my shoes off. I have to pay more taxes and airfare. All to give me the "sense of security" which works for many Americans.
Not me.
nicoleS You ask: One major unanswered question is: why? What purpose is being served other than to justify employment? I answer- to constructively restrict restrict travel, to restrict privacy in travel by our out of control government. Land of the free?
nicoleS,
Why would they want to restrict travel?
Napolitano has asked congress for more money for 12 more VIPR teams. Obama could stop the TSA patdowns and x-rays any time he wanted to. TSA is under DHS which is under the executive branch. Call your legislators (reps and senators) and ask them why they are allowing this to continue.
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