Saluda Grade to reopen?

Modelcar

Dubch87.....Oh yes, I remember you very well.....Those were excellent photos of the washout and I probably still have them somewhere on here.  And the ones of the pick up truck tool.....!

Welcome back.  When I saw this Saluda post up again it caught my attention as I've had keen interest in this piece of RR.  That would be great if it would become active again.  I'd guess if that becomes a fact, they will have plenty of work to put the track back in shape to use again.  Believe it's been about 6 years since it was taken out of service.

Wonder how much of the ROW the Kudzu has taken over.....That stuff must be something else.

So, former BRF, welcome back....You always had good info.

 

dubch87

 I'm sorry to report that nothing is going on.  The crossing signals are still covered, gates removed, track cut, and rails as rusted as ever.  No chance to check on the washout, though, as it was raining nearly the entire weekend and it is a fairly long walk.

Darn.....that news kinda burst the balloon.  Had thoughts of putting together a run down there possibly to finally see a {or some}, trains work the "Hill".....Please keep us informed if any {good}, news does become real.

 I`m really glad I took a few days on vacation back in the early 90s with the family to observe the operations at Saluda and to explore the area.

I went back to the Saluda area several years ago and was sad to know it was over,similar to the feeling I get knowing NS pulled the plug on the steam program...

I still find myself in doubt any trains ever did climb that "hill'.....Trying to be convinced it was a "real" railroad without ever seeing the action....{Lord knows  we tried, to see action}.  Standing beside the track and looking down the grade....Thinking of the weight of the components and adhesion involved...How was it accomplished.....Just can't see how the locating engineers approved such a location for that route so many years ago.

How the engineers of steam engines heading down.....kept the crown sheet covered with water and so on......No dynamic braking back then to support the air brakes....Guess that's why the two "run away tracks" existed.

Uh oh....I hope you are wrong.....but thanks for the report.  Perhaps there is just  a small spark of hope yet....It's been approaching a decade now and one might think the rails would have been lifted by now if there was absolutely no chance of future usage.

dubch87

Norfolk Southern tore out rotted ties and put asphalt around the rails at several grade crossings in Tryon last week. The Saluda Grade is history.

I suspect that was very limited tie removal and repaving work was just to keep the crossing surfaces from deteriorating and getting hassled by the local road dept. folks and the state public utility commission about same, and to facilitate their road maintenance.  That's still consistent with 'rail-banking'. 

Also - what exactly does 'put asphalt around the rails' mean ?  In a crossing area, it's a lot easier to tear out rotted ties by first removing the rails - though it can be done from the side by digging a big trench there.  If the rails are still in place - such as Continuous Welded Rail - though with paving around them such as in the flangeways, or even completely paved over, then that's a pretty good sign that NS has not given up on the possibility of restoring the line to service at some point in the future.  Even if the rails were removed, that might have been just a convenience to facilitate the patch-paving and road maintenance 'for the duration', until the line and the crossing is restored to service at some time in the future.

If the Saluda grade and line is really going to be abandoned and scrapped, the rails on the rest of the track would likely be lifted before the crossings.  It'd be really hard now to get a rail train in there, if that method would have been chosen . . .

There's also the little matter of the 'formality' - actually, a strong legal requirement - that the STB approve the abandonment before the track is lifted permanently.  I'm not aware that NS has ever filed that petition - though I could have missed it. 

As Mark Twain once said, ''These rumors of its demise may be somewhat premature''. 

- Paul North. 

Modelcar

.....Just can't see how the locating engineers approved such a location for that route so many years ago.

Topography dictated the grade; there was no better way to get from Asheville to Spartanburg without adding many miles--such as through Ridgecrest and Old Fort. As I commented a few months back, it was possible to go up the hill, even with oil on the railheads.

I recall an article in Trains some time back about the wrecks that led to the laying of the two (later reduced to one) run away tracks. An engineer involved in one wreck thought of the idea while in the hospital.

Deggesty

  [snip]  I recall an article in Trains some time back about the wrecks that led to the laying of the two (later reduced to one) run away tracks. An engineer involved in one wreck thought of the idea while in the hospital. 

Saluda
Trains, November 1984 page 26
America's steepest mainline grade
( CAROLINA, "CLODFELTER, FRANK", DIVISION, GRADE, NORTH, SR, TRN )

Also -

Selected railroad reading: The other side of Saluda
Trains, May 1981 page 31
memories of Saluda Grade
( "MCCALL, CHARLES C.", REMINISCENCE, SR, TRN ) 

On the contrary side:

Saluda: why it must rust
Trains, June 2003 page 50
other main lines now idle
( CAROLINA, DIVISION, GRADE, "HEMPHILL, MARK W.", NORTH, SALUDA, TRN )

I express no opinion on this - it will be interesting to see what has happened in 10 or 20 years from now . . .

- Paul North.  

Paul, I knew you would be able to steer us to the articles. Thanks.

Deggesty

Topography dictated the grade; there was no better way to get from Asheville to Spartanburg without adding many miles--such as through Ridgecrest and Old Fort. As I commented a few months back,

I wonder now, after so many years after the decision to climb the "hill" to Saluda, with such a steep grade, was the better choice than doing a circuitous route {that would have added a few miles}, but of course would probably allowed a much "softer" grade.......Of course, hindsight makes a clearer picture.....

Over the years it operated, there were plenty expensive runaway accidents and extra costs associated with operating on the "hill".  Such as stopping to do various preps. including setting retainers....prepairing for the downhill run....and breaking a train in "pieces" to "double or "triple" the climbing of the hill...and so on.

And even with the above....the constant threat of an impending failure leading to disaster.

I just came across this conversation while doing research on another aspect of Norfolk Southern.

While "The Loops" [between Ridgecrest and Old Fort] do provide an alternate route into Asheville, there is another problem to consider in addition to the congestion. I've hiked Old US 70 several times and the road is starting to slide down the mountain. If a major rain event were to occur, [Hurricane Floyd in 1999 dropped in excess of 20 inches in eastern NC, even though it was not a hurricane at landfall] it's not inconceivable that Asheville could be isolated. Saluda, although expensive to operate, could be brought back online relatively quickly.

Realsitically, I don't see Saluda ever seeing regular service again, but I don't see NS abandoning the right-of-way; it's much to valuable and you can never be absolutely sure it will never be needed.

I'd always heard that kudzu came from Africa, not Japan.  Japan gets cold, so does Wisconsin where I'm currently living.  No kudzu up here, but having grown up in the South, I remember it well.

uphogger

I'd always heard that kudzu came from Africa, not Japan.  Japan gets cold, so does Wisconsin where I'm currently living.  No kudzu up here, but having grown up in the South, I remember it well.

By the way, did you intend to post your reply in the thread on Snow Spreaders? I am sure that you can find much kudzu around Saluda grade, though.

uphogger

I'd always heard that kudzu came from Africa, not Japan.  Japan gets cold, so does Wisconsin where I'm currently living.  No kudzu up here, but having grown up in the South, I remember it well.

By the way, did you intend to post your reply in the thread on Snow Spreaders? I am sure that you can find much kudzu around Saluda grade, though.

From the Thread: "...I was on YouTube watching some Saluda action when I saw a comment that read "According to Ken Daniels, Spokesperson for NS Railway, The Saluda Grade will re-open in Late June of 2009. Repairs are being done and more effective track stabilizers are to put into place by the end of May. Rail servie will run once a day and return through Hendersonville."  Reading that brought me back to the Trains forum to find this thread..."

GordonMBSC replied on 11-06-2010 8:34 PM

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The wife and I made several stops there {Saluda}, in the month of March, on our way back from being in Florida for the Winter.

It was very, very pretty...The mountain small town atmosphere, and of course the railroad....but there was so much beautiful blossoms and flowers starting up for Spring.  Really a pretty place that time of the year.

We did these stops just before the line stopped traffic.  Sometimes waiting up to 4 hrs. trying to see some "action" on the "hill"...But alas, never did.

I believe it's still worth a stop if one is going by on the interstate which is just about 2 mi. distant.  Nice little restaurants....the old General Store...{Pace}....but I'm assuming it's still there and open.  The gentleman we talked to in it was elderly and that was 2001 or before.

And for me, even if no trains....and if I had never seen it before, as a railfan, I'd still enjoy looking at just what is there.....{The excessive grade, etc...}.

I’d like to apologize for posting such an ill-thought-out comment. Obviously a little asphalt does not spell doom and gloom. 

The improvements made to the crossings were completed after a local resident made a complaint to Norfolk Southern about the deteriorating crossings making for a rough ride. NS came in and removed some ties near the edges of the pavement, then placed some sort of asphalt filler in the flangeway. The rails themselves are not paved over, and there appears to be some gap left. This was simply done to make a smoother crossing for vehicles. North Carolina DOT did some work at the state’s road crossings as well. 

A few months back, someone submitted a photo to the local paper of a NS engine and car that stopped right where the tracks are cut in Landrum, S.C. Whoever took the picture managed to talk to the crew, and they said they were testing the rails/roadbed/etc. up to that point with equipment in the car (not sure what this is called). The line is still used by a wood chipping facility up to that point, so this was likely routine and had nothing to do with reopening the line through Saluda (which I believe was the assumption of the photographer). It would be interesting to know if they tested to the other cut near Flat Rock, N.C.

NS has recently placed reflective markings on the wooden posts of the railroad crossing signs at grade crossings along this section. I don’t know if this is being done by NS at all of its crossings, or if someone complained. Regardless, it shows that NS is still making an effort to maintain this route. Of course it is only rainbanked and not abandoned, so some maintenance is required. 

The washout near mile marker 38 remains, since it is only accessible by rail. I’m sure there has been further erosion in the past six years. I still haven't mustered the energy to hike to it.

The towns along the line have been vocal recently about a rails-to-trails conversion. A lot of assumptions are going around that after this long, the line will not return to use. But, a letter to the editor this past week included an excerpt from a letter from NS spokesman Robin Chapman, reminding us that the line is only railbanked, and that NS has no plans to abandon it. Which leads me to wonder… (to be continued in the next post…) 

I believe there is only one reason Norfolk Southern has not abandoned the Saluda Grade; the Port of Charleston, South Carolina. 

At the Port of Charleston “a new terminal that will boost total container capacity in the port by 50% is set to open in 2016.” As seen with the Heartland Corridor, Norfolk Southern wants to move freight from the Atlantic ports to the Midwest as efficiently as possible.

Is it likely that intermodal trains will one day go through Asheville on the way from Charleston to the Midwest (to Cincinnati, for example)? Before the recession, there had been serious discussion of constructing an inland terminal in western North Carolina or eastern Tennessee. 

Now, I’m not saying intermodal traffic will be transported over the Saluda Grade. But, if it were to utilize the S-Line up the loops to Asheville, would increased traffic volume lead to enough congestion to warrant the cost of operating the W-Line over Saluda for less time-sensitive freight? I have read/heard that the loops are nearing capacity already (true or false?). Plus, the added distance to Salisbury isn’t exactly efficient. However, one of the primary factors for discontinuing service over Saluda was fuel consumption. How cheap was fuel in 2001? 

I’m just tossing some ideas out there and wondering if anyone else believes this is likely. I know everyone is tired of the rumors about Saluda, but hearing the local know-it-alls say that it will be abandoned and this talk of what they want to do with private property has led me to wonder what will actually happen over the next decade.

.....We're still watching and waiting.

Don't forget that CSX runs out of Charleston as well and the old Clinchfield from Spartanburg is pretty much a straight shot to the mid-west.  I have no idea if the line has clearance for double stacks though.  And it points toward the new intermodal yard in N Baltimore as well.

john_edwards

Don't forget that CSX runs out of Charleston as well and the old Clinchfield from Spartanburg is pretty much a straight shot to the mid-west.  I have no idea if the line has clearance for double stacks though.  And it points toward the new intermodal yard in N Baltimore as well.

I thought about that, but there are several tunnels along the Clinchfield loops, so I doubt there is enough vertical clearance for double-stacks without improvements. The same goes for the Ridgecrest-Old Fort loops.

Quentin:

          I would guess the last few post just go to prove the old adage, "Never, Say Never!  

       Apparently, as long as the line is in place there is always the possibility that it might rise again!  Like Lazarus(?)

Any rate, HAPPY NEW YEAR!

samfp1943

Quentin:

          I would guess the last few post just go to prove the old adage, "Never, Say Never!  

       Apparently, as long as the line is in place there is always the possibility that it might rise again!  Like Lazarus(?)

  

Any rate, HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Oh sure.....I've not given up on Saluda.  As long as the route is in place, I suppose there remains a chance of later use....Sure would like to witness loaded trains struggling up that grade into Saluda.  We certainly did try back when we were there and it was about to be shut down.  Waited hours for some action, but had to give up and get back on the interstate, and continue our trip back north.

 

 

Yes double stacks do go up the old Clinchfield,only the overseas container's not the tall ones like JB hunt has.

I'm going to continue beating this dead horse.

Same day that Tennessee Pass in Colorado re-opens!  Never say never.

Dubch87:

Glad someone is "beating this old dead horse"....Interested to hear of any update on "Saluda".

I even have the photo {you took}, of the pickup on display some years ago suspended on the rails with out any roadbed under it...And the series of pic's. of it and the ROW that slid down the hill leaving the tracks without support.

And the reason the pickup arrived to that location as it did....

bedell

Same day that Tennessee Pass in Colorado re-opens!  Never say never.

Build an all new, straight as an arrow, .01% maximum grade line from Pueblo, CO to the top of Saluda Grade. Avoid all major metropolitan areas. No Chicago bottle neck.  Add a daily Amtrak schedule. Bill the government for all with the promise of future high speed capability.

On a little more serious note however... I was living in Western New York when the old Erie main was given up for dead during the Conrail era.  Now the line is back in business again as part of the Western New York and Pennsylvania RR.  I can remember the sad sights of downed trees across the tracks and rusty rails.  So, we really can never say never.