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New hope for Penn Station (redux)

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Posted by 54light15 on Thursday, December 23, 2021 3:25 PM
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Posted by Electroliner 1935 on Saturday, December 18, 2021 1:47 PM

"Its my way or the Highway!" As Rodney King said, "Can't WE just get along.

 

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Posted by BEAUSABRE on Wednesday, December 15, 2021 7:01 PM

Nope, Ain't gonna happen, the current atrocity is "historic"

"NEW YORK — The destruction of New York’s Penn Station — built in 1910, demolished in 1963 — is often cited as a seminal moment in the movement to preserve historic buildings. Now, the processes to protect historic structures may be used to prevent redevelopment of the current Penn Station, the crowded, confusing, and largely unloved underground space currently used by Amtrak, Long Island Rail Road, and NJ Transit passengers.

Bloomberg CityLab reports New York’s Historic Preservation Office is proposing that the 2 Penn Plaza office building, the Garden, and the underground station should be added to the National Register of Historic Places, a move which would almost certainly slow the redevelopment proposed by former New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo and supported in reduced form by his successor, Gov. Kathy Hochul. The move reflects a law requiring the preservation office “to be consulted throughout the project planning process and have the opportunity to make recommendations.”

The historic status is sought mainly to check the redevelopment plan introduced earlier this year by Cuomo and the Metropolitan Transportation Authority. That plan called for 10 new skyscrapers to be built, offsetting the cost of rebuilding the station and adding nine new tracks [see “New York governor, MTA unveil proposals …,” Trains News Wire, April 22, 2021]. Hochul introduced her revised version of the plan in November, which projects a cost of $6 billion to $7 billion to rebuild the station, cuts 1.4 million square feet from the redevelopment plan, and calls for decreased building heights. Opponents say a number of historic buildings would have to be torn down for the new skyscrapers and oppose the changes the new buildings would bring to the neighborhood."

- Trains Newswire

 

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Posted by Lithonia Operator on Wednesday, December 1, 2021 7:21 AM

daveklepper
Funding of the T-1  revival does not appear a problem.  Donations continue to come in as the work progresses.  Cayuga Valley and Steamtown are already commited as hosts.  And the engineerring chsnges to make the restoration more reliable and easier to maintain seem sensible and won't distract from its appearance or sound.
 

Your optimism prompted me to visit their website. There is a video that shows the in-progress boiler. Very impressive.

Still in training.


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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, December 1, 2021 3:04 AM

I would have been happy to see Penn saved, but if GCT had been destroyed, I woul d have been far more unhappy. 

Funding of the T-1  revival does not appear a problem.  Donations continue to come in as the work progresses.  Cayuga Valley and Steamtown are already commited as hosts.  And the engineerring chsnges to make the restoration more reliable and easier to maintain seem sensible and won't distract from its appearance or sound.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Tuesday, November 30, 2021 8:00 PM

daveklepper
I'm unsure I'd really want New York's Pennsylvania Station to be re-created. ...

New York saved the right station, GCT.

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Posted by 54light15 on Tuesday, November 30, 2021 5:00 PM

Another tragedy of preservation was the scrapping of the SS Normandie in 1947. Done by Lipsett Brothers who demolished Penn Station. 

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, November 30, 2021 1:48 PM

And if this engineering experiment is actually built, where will it be operated and how will its operation be funded??

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, November 30, 2021 1:19 PM

Lithonia Operator
 
daveklepper
The T-1 rebirth:

The project is 38.7% complete as of September 1, 2021

(Wikapedia)

I hope and believe it will be successful. 

I hope you're right, Dave! Would be great if it happened.

How much has actually been financed?

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by Lithonia Operator on Tuesday, November 30, 2021 1:05 PM

daveklepper
The T-1 rebirth:

The project is 38.7% complete as of September 1, 2021

(Wikapedia)

I hope and believe it will be successful.

 

 

 

I hope you're right, Dave! Would be great if it happened.

Still in training.


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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, November 30, 2021 3:44 AM

I'm unsure I'd really want New York's Pennsylvania Station to be re-created.  As originally built, it had passenger-flow problems, solved be later changes.  And LIRR patrons never had 1st-Class facilities, having nothing more than an enlarged subway station in practice. 

The real USA tragedy regarding preservation was the destruction of Castle Gate, a work of art by the Eternal, by Colorado's Highway Department.

The T-1 rebirth:

The project is 38.7% complete as of September 1, 2021

(Wikapedia)

I hope and believe it will be successful.

 

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, November 30, 2021 3:02 AM

My meetings with Queen Elizabeth (Prince Edward Island rail and car-ferry) and Golda Meir (same trip as meeting Phil Hastings Winnapeg - St. Paul, Crookstan-Grand Forks E7 cab-ride- and Hiawatha to Chicago with Milwaukee stop-over) certainly involved trains, but the meetings involved my audio (and in the case of the Queen music) expertise, not railroads.  I did do my to make the visit of the Queen to Charlottown's Fathers of the Confederation Theatre and Golda's to Milwaukee's Uhlein Hall as pleasant, useful, and memorable as possible.

The meetings were discussed in some detail on two previous threads.

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Posted by Shock Control on Monday, November 29, 2021 10:38 AM

NKP guy

 

 
Shock Control
So there is still hope!

 

The patient (the project to rebuild the old Penn Station) is brain dead.

The ventilator (state funding) has been turned off.

The coroner (Gov. Hochul) has signed the death certificate (see daveklepper's Nov. 12 posting).

So the only hope is life after death.  But not in this world.

Not only has the fat lady sung, she's left the building with Elvis.

It's over.

 

 

 

Thanks for confirming.  That was a stupid, stooooopid choice by the powers that be.

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Posted by Lithonia Operator on Monday, November 29, 2021 9:16 AM

NKP guy

 

 
Shock Control
So there is still hope!

 

The patient (the project to rebuild the old Penn Station) is brain dead.

The ventilator (state funding) has been turned off.

The coroner (Gov. Hochul) has signed the death certificate (see daveklepper's Nov. 12 posting).

So the only hope is life after death.  But not in this world.

Not only has the fat lady sung, she's left the building with Elvis.

It's over.

 

 

 

I agree. The Moynihan Train Hall serves Amtrak in good style. And the current Penn Station (for LIRR and NJT) is going to get a major revamp featuring more space and light. Nothing beyond that will happen. But when all is done, it should be pretty nice.

There is less chance of a new Penn Station being built, even, than there is of that replica of a Pennsy T1 getting completed.

Still in training.


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Posted by NKP guy on Monday, November 29, 2021 8:35 AM

Shock Control
So there is still hope!

The patient (the project to rebuild the old Penn Station) is brain dead.

The ventilator (state funding) has been turned off.

The coroner (Gov. Hochul) has signed the death certificate (see daveklepper's Nov. 12 posting).

So the only hope is life after death.  But not in this world.

Not only has the fat lady sung, she's left the building with Elvis.

It's over.

 

 

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Posted by Shock Control on Sunday, November 28, 2021 9:34 PM

blue streak 1
Shock Control

So is the movement to rebuild the old Penn Station officially dead?

https://www.rebuildpennstation.org

 

 

This whole rebuilding of Penn station has really been a long novel.   To quote the opera saying.  " Its not over until the fat lady sings " That could be 20 years hence?

So there is still hope!

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Sunday, November 28, 2021 7:20 PM

Shock Control

So is the movement to rebuild the old Penn Station officially dead?

https://www.rebuildpennstation.org

This whole rebuilding of Penn station has really been a long novel.   To quote the opera saying.  " Its not over until the fat lady sings " That could be 20 years hence ? 

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Posted by Shock Control on Sunday, November 28, 2021 9:40 AM

So is the movement to rebuild the old Penn Station officially dead?

https://www.rebuildpennstation.org

 

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Posted by NKP guy on Sunday, November 28, 2021 8:25 AM

[quote user="MidlandMike"]

I remember reading an article in the New Yorker about Frimbo's brother, who was an artisanal blacksmith.  He made a plaque in his brothers honor and set it on a tie in Cumbres Pass, along with his ashes.

From:  Narrow Gauge Discussion Forum:

"Rogers' younger brother, Francis Whitaker, was a blacksmith; he made the plaque and chose Cumbres Pass for the memorial site."  


"Under the pen name E.M. Frimbo, Rogers Whitaker, along with Tony Hiss, regularly published chronicles of his adventures in the New Yorker magazine. Those articles were compiled in a book that was originally published in 1974 when Frimbo had documented a mere 2.3 million miles. The later edition from 1997 includes stories from all 2.7 million miles of travel and the final chapter, entitled "Frimbo's Peak," documents Rogers' family placing the plaque on the tie at Cumbres Pass. They rode the train up the hill from Chama in 1981 and scattered Rogers' ashes at Cumbres. On the return trip from Osier, the plaque was installed just ahead of the locomotive. Kyle Railways employees later came back and bolted the plaque down."

"Cumbres Pass was chosen because Rogers Whitaker loved riding the San Juan and was particularly fond of the $1.15 steak dinners. Legend among Docent circles has it that some have ridden the Cumbres and Toltec with Francis Whitaker though I was never so fortunate. I did have the pleasure of once riding with a gentleman who was in a railroad club with Rogers Whitaker."

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted by MidlandMike on Saturday, November 27, 2021 7:04 PM

I remember reading an article in the New Yorker about Frimbo's brother, who was an artisanal blacksmith.  He made a plaque in his brothers honor and set it on a tie in Cumbres Pass, along with his ashes.

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Posted by Shock Control on Saturday, November 27, 2021 3:21 PM

NKP guy
 
Shock Control
Dave, did you ever meet Frimbo? 

(raises hand)  

I did.

 

   It was easy to recognize E. M. Frimbo.  The first clue was that he looked like a stereotypical Episcopalian Senior Warden.  At 75, he was a tall, commanding presence with wavy white hair and wearing a pinstriped blue wool three-piece suit whose vest had the lapels favored by bankers and moguls.  I’d read once that he was said to look as if he were an executive in the New York Central’s Passenger Department, a simile which delighted him.

 

   The second clue was that he was stepping down from the Amtrak  business car on the rear of the publicity train that pulled into Cleveland on October 30, 1975 to herald the first run of the Lake Shore Limited the following night.

 

   Recognizing him, I walked right up and introduced myself as a faithful reader of The New Yorker, as a railfan, and as a teacher who’d brought his class along to see an historic event. I also reminded him of the letter I had written him a year or so earlier invoking his aid in the fight to keep Amtrak in the Cleveland Union Terminal and not build a new station on the cold and windy lakefront.  His wonderful responding letter explained in patient detail the economics working against just such a restoration. 

 

   We talked for a few minutes until he could spot someone else to chat with in order to get away from a rather over-eager railfan.  No matter.  I’d met and chatted with E. M. Frimbo himself.

 

   We railfans enjoy rightly claiming Frimbo as one of our own.  But that was only one part of Rogers Whitaker’s persona.  He was as well known to Broadway actors and show people, among whom he was called Popsie; he is said to have promoted the young Debbie Reynolds and also Bobby Short.  He was equally knowledgeable about the jazz and dance bands of the 1920’s.  From what I can tell he was a flaneur, a raconteur, and a bon vivant.  His day job with the New Yorker gave him an expense account to attend college football games all over the East, and to do this he rode trains of every railroad, type, and description.  At all hours.  It was thanks to him that I learned to take taxis in the middle of the night in order to ride trains.

 

   I don’t know if he had any close friends, but he sure had a large and appreciative readership, many, many acquaintances, a good deal of influence, and he left behind a good name.

 

 

 

 

Very cool!  I too share Frimbo's twin interestes in trains and jazz!

 

A lot of musicians I've known over the years are obsessed with trains.  I wonder what the connection is. 

 

[/quote]

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Posted by NKP guy on Saturday, November 27, 2021 1:12 PM

Shock Control
Dave, did you ever meet Frimbo?

 

 

(raises hand)  

I did.

 

   It was easy to recognize E. M. Frimbo.  The first clue was that he looked like a stereotypical Episcopalian Senior Warden.  At 75, he was a tall, commanding presence with wavy white hair and wearing a pinstriped blue wool three-piece suit whose vest had the lapels favored by bankers and moguls.  I’d read once that he was said to look as if he were an executive in the New York Central’s Passenger Department, a simile which delighted him.

 

   The second clue was that he was stepping down from the Amtrak  business car on the rear of the publicity train that pulled into Cleveland on October 30, 1975 to herald the first run of the Lake Shore Limited the following night.

 

   Recognizing him, I walked right up and introduced myself as a faithful reader of The New Yorker, as a railfan, and as a teacher who’d brought his class along to see an historic event. I also reminded him of the letter I had written him a year or so earlier invoking his aid in the fight to keep Amtrak in the Cleveland Union Terminal and not build a new station on the cold and windy lakefront.  His wonderful responding letter explained in patient detail the economics working against just such a restoration. 

 

   We talked for a few minutes until he could spot someone else to chat with in order to get away from a rather over-eager railfan.  No matter.  I’d met and chatted with E. M. Frimbo himself.

 

   We railfans enjoy rightly claiming Frimbo as one of our own.  But that was only one part of Rogers Whitaker’s persona.  He was as well known to Broadway actors and show people, among whom he was called Popsie; he is said to have promoted the young Debbie Reynolds and also Bobby Short.  He was equally knowledgeable about the jazz and dance bands of the 1920’s.  From what I can tell he was a flaneur, a raconteur, and a bon vivant.  His day job with the New Yorker gave him an expense account to attend college football games all over the East, and to do this he rode trains of every railroad, type, and description.  At all hours.  It was thanks to him that I learned to take taxis in the middle of the night in order to ride trains.

 

   I don’t know if he had any close friends, but he sure had a large and appreciative readership, many, many acquaintances, a good deal of influence, and he left behind a good name.

 

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Posted by Shock Control on Saturday, November 27, 2021 12:45 PM

daveklepper

and Queen Elizabeth

and Golda Meir 

Didn't know they were railfans!  Yes

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, November 25, 2021 1:53 AM

I think I met Rogers Whittiker (Sp?) on a rear-mileage fantrip once.  No deep conversation occured.

Bill Hastings, Ron Ziel, Maurie Kliebolt, Jay Quinby,

And others

and Queen Elizabeth

and Golda Meir

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Posted by Shock Control on Wednesday, November 24, 2021 10:07 AM

daveklepper

Glad that they will get just that! 

Dave, did you ever meet Frimbo?

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, November 24, 2021 9:14 AM

Glad that they will get just that!

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Posted by NKP guy on Wednesday, November 24, 2021 8:52 AM

daveklepper

Was there really any practical proposal to restore the old station in all its grandness?

 

 

No serious proposal that I've ever seen in 35 years of following this topic.

Besides, NYC needs a station for the 21st century, not one from nearly the 19th.

Excelsior!

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, November 24, 2021 8:48 AM

Was there really any practical proposal to restore the old station in all its grandness?

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Posted by Shock Control on Friday, November 19, 2021 12:14 PM

So I guess the proposal to rebuild the old Penn Station went belly up.  

Sad.

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