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Italy's HSR Allegedly a Success, Out-competes National Airline

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Italy's HSR Allegedly a Success, Out-competes National Airline
Posted by Convicted One on Wednesday, October 13, 2021 10:31 AM

Over two thirds of people traveling between Milan and Rome now take the train. It's a remarkable endorsement of Italy's high-speed rail network, which debuted in 2008.

 

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/italy-high-speed-trains-alitalia/index.html

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, October 13, 2021 12:15 PM

Some potentially valuable details in this story.  Note that the time spent and wasted might be comparable to what can be achieved LA-SF... but 'city center' access in either of those American cities might be dramatically non-comparable.

Note the presence of enough traffic... and the 'right' infrastructure and its administration... to make competitive HSR providers a possibility.

Note the 'Freccia' network details, and the mix of high speed and station stops that 'nake the trick work'.  Fewer stations give you higher speed but fewer overall passengers; more stations have a disproportionate effect on overall time...

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Posted by Convicted One on Wednesday, October 13, 2021 12:48 PM

That's true. If you live on the outskirts  of a large  metro area, then departures from the city core really aren't that much of a plus

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, October 14, 2021 7:55 AM
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Posted by 7j43k on Friday, October 22, 2021 2:26 PM

San Francisco is only 7 miles square, so it's hard to be far away from "city center".

There is a current passenger station.  There will be a new one a few blocks away.  There MAY be HSR service sometime towards the middle of the century.  Both of those are a short walk from the financial district.  City government is farther away--about a mile and a half.

There's TONS of transit, even cable cars.

What DOES look difficult is conveniently renting a car.  Haven't tried, though, as I live on the opposite side of the Bay.  So, while you can relatively easily "do things" in San Francisco, you can kind of forget it if you have to leave the city.

 

Ed

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, October 22, 2021 3:56 PM

7j43k
San Francisco is only 7 miles square, so it's hard to be far away from "city center".

That's got little to do with the 'city center access' concern.  Much of that seven miles is up and down; the tunneling cost even for 'ordinary' HrSR access is prohibitive, and BART is thoughtfully gauge-incompatible.  Makes the fun of the 'inside line' near San Diego look almost simple and straightforward by comparison.

Much of the European experience involves 'last mile' access to cities via legacy tracks.  That time loss and potential congestion delay must be overcome by a surprising amount of acceleration and sustained speed.  I wouldn't want to see a plethora of political  stops and built-to-a-price single track compounding that felony.

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, October 22, 2021 3:57 PM

7j43k
San Francisco is only 7 miles square, so it's hard to be far away from "city center".

That's got little to do with the 'city center access' concern.  Much of that seven miles is up and down; the tunneling cost even for 'ordinary' HrSR access is prohibitive, and BART is thoughtfully gauge-incompatible.  Makes the fun of the 'inside line' near San Diego look almost simple and straightforward by comparison.

Much of the European experience involves 'last mile' access to cities via legacy tracks.  That time loss and potential congestion delay must be overcome by a surprising amount of acceleration and sustained speed.  I wouldn't want to see a plethora of political  stops and built-to-a-price single track compounding that felony.

Does anyone choose to drive in downtown SF?  It's even more irritating than Manhattan... and that's saying quite a lot.

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Posted by York1 on Friday, October 22, 2021 5:09 PM

I don't want to denigrate the Italian HSR.

But ... 

This CNN article's headline is misleading in that it seems to suggest that Alitalia was put out of business by the HSR train.

Alitalia decided to forego much of the profitable international market and focus on Italian city traffic.  They were a top-heavy airline that could not compete with several other independent airlines that now dominate the Italian city-to-city airline market.

High speed trains played a part.  But there were other reasons for Alitalia's failure, too, and those other reasons played a big part.

Edit:  One of the advantages the article states is that the Italian airlines require check-in time and screening, while the trains do not.

I wonder if and when a terrorist boards a train in Italy will it require the same screening that is now required at airports?

I don't care what your religion or political beliefs are.  Just use your turn signal.

York1 John       

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Posted by Backshop on Friday, October 22, 2021 6:01 PM

Alitalia was a bloated, government-run (not officially) airline that's been on life support for 20+ years.

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