243129You wish to be snarky/petty? The proper word/spelling is 'alleged'.
The proper word/spelling is 'alleged'.
Was never picked for the spelling bee - obviously. Shucky Darns!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
243129The question is not yours but it is the 'sniper' zugmann's. However I will answer you not he.
That's ok. I can read it too Joe. Although you didn't answer my question. So you ran an engine. So have countless others before you. But what makes you think you have what it takes to judge whether someone is a good engineer candidate? Just as you want to be the judge of them, someone has to be the judge of you. If I were amtrak and going to create this panel you want so bad to judge engineer candidates - I would ask the potential panel candidates: "WHAT MAKES YOU SUITABLE FOR THIS ROLE?" And "I ran an engine for xx number of years" is not gonna cut it (if I was doing the selecting).
I'm sure Charlie will ask this question again if you want to pretend that you are ignoring me.
Sniper zug.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
BaltACD 243129 You wish to be snarky/petty? The proper word/spelling is 'alleged'. Was never picked for the spelling bee - obviously. Shucky Darns!
243129 You wish to be snarky/petty? The proper word/spelling is 'alleged'.
I noticed that you have avoided qualifying your allegation about me. That says a bunch about your credibility.
BaltACD 243129 BaltACD 243129 does any carrier have personnel qualified to assess a candidate's acumen for the position of locomotive engineer - to your satisfaction. Are you so qualfied? I speak only of that where I am familiar. Amtrak does not. Yes I feel qualified to judge whether a person has the acumen for the position of locomotive engineer. So you are the ONLY person on the face of the Earth qualified to pronounce judgement on the acumen of Amtrak locomotive engineers. Rich!
243129 BaltACD 243129 does any carrier have personnel qualified to assess a candidate's acumen for the position of locomotive engineer - to your satisfaction. Are you so qualfied? I speak only of that where I am familiar. Amtrak does not. Yes I feel qualified to judge whether a person has the acumen for the position of locomotive engineer.
BaltACD 243129 does any carrier have personnel qualified to assess a candidate's acumen for the position of locomotive engineer - to your satisfaction. Are you so qualfied?
243129 does any carrier have personnel qualified to assess a candidate's acumen for the position of locomotive engineer - to your satisfaction. Are you so qualfied?
I speak only of that where I am familiar. Amtrak does not.
Yes I feel qualified to judge whether a person has the acumen for the position of locomotive engineer.
So you are the ONLY person on the face of the Earth qualified to pronounce judgement on the acumen of Amtrak locomotive engineers. Rich!
Where do I claim that?
243129Where do I claim that?
Every post you make, every breath you take.
No one will compare - to you.
I've said it before, and I'll sya it again. Want 30 opinions on how to run a railroad? Just go to a crew room with 30 people. It's always easy to "know what needs done" when you're not the one actually doing what has to be done.
BaltACD 243129 Where do I claim that? Every post you make, every breath you take. No one will compare - to you.
243129 Where do I claim that?
As I thought, a baseless allegation.
What sets me, and my veteran co-workers apart is EXPERIENCE and lots of it. We have over the last 50+ years experienced just about every situation that could be presented to a railroad engineer. We have learned from those experiences in freight, passenger, commuter service, local freight, wreck service all without benefit of cab signal, PTC etc. and could pass them on to candidates were Amtrak not so arrogant. Yes I, and I am not alone, feel confident that I/we could assess whether or not a candidate has the acumen for the position of locomotive engineer.
[/quote]
Distractions have been mentioned numerous times as a contributing factor. When you are trained properly you can transcend those situations and not be distracted from your primary duty which is the safe handling of your train. Steven Brown and Brandon Bostian were easily distracted. That trait was not discerned by their supervisors because they themselves are of minimal qualifications.
Until Amtrak training was done 'on the job' in all classes of service. The experience of the veteran operations employees was passed on.
Rules and physical characteristic exams were given verbally one on one. "What is manual block" and recite the definition etc. The examiner would ask "Take me from New Haven to Grand Central on track#3 and point out all interlockings, wayside signals, sidings etc.
I would wager that 90% of those 'graduates' of Choo Choo U. would not be able to pass such a test.
Site specific training is a must. The generic 'teachings' at Choo Choo U. are of little value.
243129The examiner would ask "Take me from New Haven to Grand Central on track#3 and point out all interlockings, wayside signals, sidings etc.
Still pretty much done that way. Only on paper instead of verbal - which allows for a better level of accountability.
I know you basically want the fireman craft to come back. It's not.
zugmann 243129 The examiner would ask "Take me from New Haven to Grand Central on track#3 and point out all interlockings, wayside signals, sidings etc. Still pretty much done that way. Only on paper instead of verbal - which allows for a better level of accountability.
243129 The examiner would ask "Take me from New Haven to Grand Central on track#3 and point out all interlockings, wayside signals, sidings etc.
Assuming that there is a deficiency arising from training on paper rather than on site, maybe that is not the main force behind what we have seen in Amtrak accidents of late. Maybe what we are seeing is the effect of Amtrak not doing classroom training as well as the private railroads do it. I would expect Amtrak’s human resource culture to differ greatly from that of the private railroads. So, maybe Amtrak reverting back to more on-site training would improve their safety, but not be needed for the private railroads because they do a better job of training overall.
Euclid zugmann 243129 The examiner would ask "Take me from New Haven to Grand Central on track#3 and point out all interlockings, wayside signals, sidings etc. Still pretty much done that way. Only on paper instead of verbal - which allows for a better level of accountability. Assuming that there is a deficiency arising from training on paper rather than on site, maybe that is not the main force behind what we have seen in Amtrak accidents of late. Maybe what we are seeing is the effect of Amtrak not doing classroom training as well as the private railroads do it. I would expect Amtrak’s human resource culture to differ greatly from that of the private railroads. So, maybe Amtrak reverting back to more on-site training would improve their safety, but not be needed for the private railroads because they do a better job of training overall.
Amtrak does neither correctly. The rules can be taught in the classroom but the implementation of them must be taught in the field.
There have been comparisons on this thread between railroads and airlines so I shall make one. Amtrak hires their engineers 'off of the street' so to speak. Airlines hire their captains from within.
243129There have been comparisons on this thread between railroads and airlines so I shall make one. Amtrak hires their engineers 'off of the street' so to speak. Airlines hire their captains from within.
There is just one slight difference.Commercial aircraft still need two pilot in the cockpit, Amtrack just one engineer in the cab. Airlines hire their First Officers from the street.
The implementation should be taught in simulator and in the field.Regards, Volker
VOLKER LANDWEHR 243129 There have been comparisons on this thread between railroads and airlines so I shall make one. Amtrak hires their engineers 'off of the street' so to speak. Airlines hire their captains from within. There is just one slight difference.Commercial aircraft still need two pilot in the cockpit, Amtrack just one engineer in the cab. Airlines hire their First Officers from the street. The implementation should be taught in simulator and in the field.Regards, Volker
243129 There have been comparisons on this thread between railroads and airlines so I shall make one. Amtrak hires their engineers 'off of the street' so to speak. Airlines hire their captains from within.
The 'slight difference' at Amtrak is that they go from the street to the seat. So after the simulator how are they taught in the field?
You do not feel that Amtrak needs two men in the cab?
When an airline hires a First Officer "off the street" he must have ATP certificate which requires a minimum 1500 hours total time, instrument flight rating, multi engine rating, and time in turbine engine aircraft and, to go to work, time in the aircraft to be operated.
Contrast that with "I've never run one of these before" and having ridden, (not operating) on the route twice.
243129The 'slight difference' at Amtrak is that they go from the street to the seat. So after the simulator how are they taught in the field? You do not feel that Amtrak needs two men in the cab?
With Amtraks current work rules the 2nd man in the cab is not coming back no matter how much whine you pour over your cheese.
With the increasing electronic aides on the flight decks it is totally within the laws of probability that air carriers may do away with the 2nd man on the flight deck.
The business ethic in the USA has become reduce operating costs by every means possible - and I don't see that changing any time soon. There are very few 'apprentice' type positions left in any industry.
243129You do not feel that Amtrak needs two men in the cab?
Simple answer: NO.
In Germany trains have just one engineer since 1996, even trains of 185 mph. Before trains above 125 mph had a second men.
But Deutsche Bahn had a funktioning safety system (PZB, LZB) since the 1930s. Now with PTC I don't see a need for a second person in the cab of Amtrak trains.
Perhaps German railways have another advantage. The training for a locomotive engineer takes three (3) years.Regards, Volker
BaltACD 243129 The 'slight difference' at Amtrak is that they go from the street to the seat. So after the simulator how are they taught in the field? You do not feel that Amtrak needs two men in the cab? With Amtraks current work rules the 2nd man in the cab is not coming back no matter how much whine you pour over your cheese. With the increasing electronic aides on the flight decks it is totally within the laws of probability that air carriers may do away with the 2nd man on the flight deck. The business ethic in the USA has become reduce operating costs by every means possible - and I don't see that changing any time soon. There are very few 'apprentice' type positions left in any industry.
243129 The 'slight difference' at Amtrak is that they go from the street to the seat. So after the simulator how are they taught in the field? You do not feel that Amtrak needs two men in the cab?
Isn't this part of the whole PTC mandate?
243129 Airlines hire their captains from within.
Airlines hire their captains from within.
That is a nice story. False, but a nice story. While these might be smaller feeder airlines, these "street captains" are still responsible for the lives of a number of people. There are a number of other regional airlines doing the same, I just did not feel the need to post every link.
http://piedmont-airlines.com/Careers/Career-Guides/Pilots
https://jobs.envoyair.com/dec/
"Direct Entry Captains"
http://www.gojetairlines.com/careers/pilots/Pages/Direct-Entry-Captain-Program.aspx
"This unique program allows experienced pilots join GoJet as a Captain, rather than a First Officer."
An "expensive model collector"
rdamonIsn't this part of the whole PTC mandate?
With regard to freight trains, the PTC facilitating one man crews is a pipe dream. The 2nd man on freight trains is not really there to help in the operation of the locomotive in accordance with the rules.
The 2nd man on on the train to handle the myriad of functions that require boots on the ground to find and rectify a situation. The idea of a 'flying squad' to handle these situations is laughable on its face and downright hillarious when you begin to comprehend all the locations that are not accessable for equipment except by rail - and they number in the thousands. A engineer leaving the operating cab to inspect a 5000 - 10000 - 15000 foot train does not have safety or efficiency written all over it.
By the same token Amtrak could operate with one man crews - with the engineer as ticket taker and on board service crew - that would really drive down Amtrak's cost structure. [/sarcasm]
n012944While these might be smaller feeder airlines, these "street captains" are still responsible for the lives of a number of people.
And unless they are lying through their teeth, Piedmont features 'advance to American Airlines' as quickly, if not more so, to "direct-entry" captains as to those Piedmont or American has had to train.
Surely they save a potload of weeding-out by poaching qualified, flying captains who other airlines have presumably qualified and given practical right-seat experience to? And by default much more likely get people with 'the right attitude' without interviews full of "Bene Gesserit HR" questioning, and not coincidentally be able to satisfy any PC or postmodern criteria regarding hires without having to suffer through the incompetence Amtrak does?
n012944 243129 Airlines hire their captains from within. That is a nice story. False, but a nice story. While these might be smaller feeder airlines, these "street captains" are still responsible for the lives of a number of people. There are a number of other regional airlines doing the same, I just did not feel the need to post every link. http://piedmont-airlines.com/Careers/Career-Guides/Pilots "Now hiring a select number of Direct Entry Captains DECs take home $44,000 in signing bonuses" https://jobs.envoyair.com/dec/ "Direct Entry Captains" http://www.gojetairlines.com/careers/pilots/Pages/Direct-Entry-Captain-Program.aspx "This unique program allows experienced pilots join GoJet as a Captain, rather than a First Officer."
Those three Airlines will be on my no-fly list.
Each one of those (and the others) fly planes painted like the majors and fly regional flights. There is a pilot shortage so look for even more "quick" promotions.
The first time a new hire is in the cockpit there are passengers in the back and a check airman in the other seat. All other training is done in the simulator.
Balt - I fully agree with you on the one man freight crews.
243129Amtrak hires engineers off of the street. Some of the candidates first train ride is when they travel to Choo Choo U. in Wilmington .Airlines hire candidates with previous flight experience.
Overlooked/avoided by Joe is the central fact pointed out pages ago.
1. Joe claims Amtrak training is terrible and that is why at least two accidents occured.
2. Joe must have had great training when he started 40-50 years ago, since he and several of his former colleagues were by self-proclamation, exemplary egineers and also know how to install a proper regimen for screening/hiring, training and supervision.
3. FRA statistics for various 3-year periods on human error collisions and derailments on Amtrak were provided which show that the number of accidents has decreased as we move towards the present. An FRA narrative on the huge ~40 year improvement was also quoted.
4. So why has safety improved so greatly when the wise old hands' record in the past was worse? And continues as they retire?
5. If it ain't broke, don't........
Amtrak also hires engineers from other roads. But since they are providing training - who cares if someone was never on a train before? Nobody is born an engineer. It's a job that you train for. Jsut because somebody isn't Mr. Railroader, doesn't mean they won't make a competent engineer. And many Mr. Railroaders make lousy engineers.
charlie hebdo 243129 Amtrak hires engineers off of the street. Some of the candidates first train ride is when they travel to Choo Choo U. in Wilmington .Airlines hire candidates with previous flight experience. Overlooked/avoided by Joe is the central fact pointed out pages ago. 1. Joe claims Amtrak training is terrible and that is why at least two accidents occured. 2. Joe must have had great training when he started 40-50 years ago, since he and several of his former colleagues were by self-proclamation, exemplary egineers and also know how to install a proper regimen for screening/hiring, training and supervision. 3. FRA statistics for various 3-year periods on human error collisions and derailments on Amtrak were provided which show that the number of accidents has decreased as we move towards the present. An FRA narrative on the huge ~40 year improvement was also quoted. 4. So why has safety improved so greatly when the wise old hands' record in the past was worse? And continues as they retire? 5. If it ain't broke, don't........
243129 Amtrak hires engineers off of the street. Some of the candidates first train ride is when they travel to Choo Choo U. in Wilmington .Airlines hire candidates with previous flight experience.
#1) Yes that is true.
#2) Yes we did. We learned our craft and learned it well.
#3) Statistics are numbers. They are an abstraction of reality and, because of this, they are not the reality itself.
“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”-Benjamin Disraeli
#4) See#3
#5) It's broken but Amtrak doesn't want to fix it.
243129#3) Statistics are numbers. They are an abstraction of reality and, because of this, they are not the reality itself.
"If you think that statistics has nothing to say about what you do or how you could do it better, then you are either wrong or in need of a more interesting job." --Stephen Senn
243129#3) Statistics are numbers. They are an abstraction of reality and, because of this, they are not the reality itself. “There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”-Benjamin Disraeli ****
People who respond with that cliche are either ignorant of statistics or have something to try to run away from because their whole proposition is based on distortions. Or both.
**** Another error. Mark Twain said: Figures often beguile me, particularly when I have the arranging of them myself; in which case the remark attributed to Disraeli would often apply with justice and force: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." in his Autobiography. But Disraeli was not the source. Twain misattributed for effect. Actually the phrase first appeared in an 1895 article by Leonard Courtney.
charlie hebdo 243129 #3) Statistics are numbers. They are an abstraction of reality and, because of this, they are not the reality itself. “There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”-Benjamin Disraeli **** People who respond with that cliche are either ignorant of statistics or have something to try to run away from because their whole proposition is based on distortions. Or both. **** Another error. Mark Twain said: Figures often beguile me, particularly when I have the arranging of them myself; in which case the remark attributed to Disraeli would often apply with justice and force: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." in his Autobiography. But Disraeli was not the source. Twain misattributed for effect. Actually the phrase first appeared in an 1895 article by Leonard Courtney.
243129 #3) Statistics are numbers. They are an abstraction of reality and, because of this, they are not the reality itself. “There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”-Benjamin Disraeli ****
"Another error"? Point out the others please.
Statistics? I stay with #3.
My "propositions" are based on reality and first hand experience.
Before you criticize others you should have your 'ducks in a row'. So tell me why did you capitalize autobiography?
BTW Courtney is just one of many that the quote has been attributed to. So far there is no definitive source.
243129Statistics? I stay with #3. My "propositions" are based on reality and first hand experience.
What is your coursework with statistics?
It's the title of a book.
You don't understand propositions?
What evidence do we have that your experience (opinion about training) is congruent with reality?
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.