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Acquired railroads’ names

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Acquired railroads’ names
Posted by Lithonia Operator on Thursday, September 30, 2021 10:21 AM

Not long ago, CP bought Central Maine & Quebec. Does that mean the CMQ simply went away, and that trackage IS Canadian Pacific? Or can CMQ still exist as a company, one that just happens to be owned by CP?

After more than a year of CP ownership, CMQ still has a (nice) website.

I shot a train last week; not sure whether to caption it as CMQ or CP.

 

Still in training.


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Posted by Convicted One on Thursday, September 30, 2021 10:37 AM

Lithonia Operator
not sure whether to caption it as CMQ or CP.  

Boy, you know it could be any number of options, from direct ownership, to creating a paper entity to own and then lease the plant back to itself.

I think you are safer taking the time honored tradition of calling it "CP (nee CMQ)"  thus implying that you possess knowledge of the ancients, etc etc. 

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Posted by cv_acr on Thursday, September 30, 2021 11:07 AM

CP has taken over operations, so effectively it would be CP.

Many very old long gone companies still exist on paper as subsidiaries even though you won't find any trace of them still actually doing business.

Not railway related, but the company I work for has been bought and merged twice in the last five years. The old company is dead, but is still on my paystub and income tax return. (Also being an international Canadian office with new American "overlords", keeping all the Canadian payroll/accounting under the existing Canadian subsidiary probably has a lot of administrative benefits to the parent company.)

CMQ might still exist on employee's paychecques, but otherwise effectively it is being erased.

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Posted by traisessive1 on Saturday, October 2, 2021 12:28 PM

In the case of CN and their trackage in the U.S., those railroads still exist as CN can't do business legally in the U.S. as CN. It all has to be done through their U.S. subsidiaries. 

So, the IC, GTW, EJE, BLE, WC, DMIR, etc., all still exist as operating companies. They can merge them into each other but at least one will always have to remain for CN to use as their company to operate in the U.S.

BC Rail still exists but they can entirely fold it into CN on the Canadian side and use just the name. 

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Posted by tree68 on Saturday, October 2, 2021 8:56 PM

When CN was going to buy the CSX St Lawrence Sub, they were doing it as/with BLE.

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Posted by MJ4562 on Sunday, October 3, 2021 12:31 PM

From a practical standpoint I think it makes more sense to label your photos CMW or 'former CMW'. That helps users quickly identify the geographic area as well as original owner.  

The actual legal arrangement is a different matter and niche hobby, albeit one which I am fond of.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, October 4, 2021 10:11 AM

MJ4562

The actual legal arrangement is a different matter and niche hobby, albeit one which I am fond of.

 
I'm not surprised that you fall into this niche, considering MP's corporate structure prior to re-organization.
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Posted by cv_acr on Monday, October 4, 2021 10:54 AM

traisessive1

In the case of CN and their trackage in the U.S., those railroads still exist as CN can't do business legally in the U.S. as CN. It all has to be done through their U.S. subsidiaries. 

So, the IC, GTW, EJE, BLE, WC, DMIR, etc., all still exist as operating companies. They can merge them into each other but at least one will always have to remain for CN to use as their company to operate in the U.S.

BC Rail still exists but they can entirely fold it into CN on the Canadian side and use just the name. 

 

 

I believe that "on paper" Grand Trunk Western is technically the "holding" company that owns all the various US subsidiaries (which all exist themselves still).

Crew agreements and pay etc. may be different on the US side or on various former railroads' territories, but all train operations are integrated across the CN system, with CN symbols etc.

So as a practical matter if I shot a CN train down in Louisiana on the x-IC, I'd call it a CN train, not Illiois Central or Grand Trunk [Western]. The actual legal arrangements of who owns the tracks, who owns the locomotives/equipment, who pays the crew(s), who provides the dispatching office, etc. is a whole other ball of wax as someone said above, and might be different answers for each of those.

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Posted by cv_acr on Monday, October 4, 2021 11:02 AM

In the case of CMQ, being a US-centred railway, I wouldn't be surprise that it's technically owned by SOO Line, not directly by Canadian Pacific.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Monday, October 4, 2021 4:09 PM

At one time mostly in the south each RR had to have a RR company that was based in the state where it was operating.  SOU RR had a very large number some which were listed in the passenger timetable others not.  One that confused me as a teen was the Carolina and Northwestern.  ( C&NW) and was lettered such as that on some RS Alcoas.  Although only a SOU paper RR I confused it more than one with Chicago and Northwestern ( C&NW ).  There must have been some subtle  difference but maybe someone here knows more ?

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, October 4, 2021 4:52 PM

blue streak 1
There must have been some subtle  difference but maybe someone here knows more ?

Given that locomotives didn't often leave "home" like they do now, and that all the freight cars were probably lettered for Southern, I would imagine it really didn't make much difference on a day-to-day basis.

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Posted by BEAUSABRE on Tuesday, October 5, 2021 4:11 AM

My dad and granddad worked for the Louisiana and Arkansas, the principle subsidiary of the Kansas City Couthern. Boxcars were lettered to promote the Southern Belle, etc, or just Kansas City Southern Lines but had either KCS or L&A reporting marks

https://www.protocraft.com/category.cfm?Itemid=10305&Categoryid=20

https://www.protocraft.com/category.cfm?ItemID=10348&Categoryid=20

BTW, the L&A's varnish was the Hustler and Shreveporter

"The L&A inaugurated a new premier passenger train, The Shreveporter, on December 30, 1928, operating between Shreveport and Hope, Arkansas. This train carried a through Pullman sleeping car between Shreveport and St. Louis, Missouri, in conjunction with Missouri Pacific Railroad. A second named passenger train, The Hustler, was added to provide overnight service between Shreveport and New Orleans, beginning on July 2, 1932"

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth28912/#description-content-main

Also consider how names lingered - the NYC's "Big Four", the PRR's "Northern Central", "Columbia & Port Deposit"  and "Fort Wayne" among others 

 

 

 

 

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Posted by gregc on Tuesday, October 5, 2021 6:37 AM

what defines a railroad -- trackage or rolling stock?

i'm under the impression that many of the well know railroad: new york central, erie, b&o, reading are made up of many smaller railroad.

one of the first railroad, the camden and amboy was eventually leased to the PRR.  i've seen a list of ~20 RRs making up the Reading Lines, including the Mahanoy and Broad Mountain Railroad which built the Mahanoy Plane.   the Millstone and New Brunswick RR is an old abandoned RR that was leased to the PRR.

i believe the conrail shared assets operation is an independent RR without any rolling stock used by NS, CSX, NJ transit and amtrack

my point is the trackage used by a train may not be only be leased or not even owned by the RR operating trains over them

 

 

greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, October 5, 2021 7:23 AM

gregc
what defines a railroad -- trackage or rolling stock?

i'm under the impression that many of the well know railroad: new york central, erie, b&o, reading are made up of many smaller railroad.

one of the first railroad, the camden and amboy was eventually leased to the PRR.  i've seen a list of ~20 RRs making up the Reading Lines, including the Mahanoy and Broad Mountain Railroad which built the Mahanoy Plane.   the Millstone and New Brunswick RR is an old abandoned RR that was leased to the PRR.

i believe the conrail shared assets operation is an independent RR without any rolling stock used by NS, CSX, NJ transit and amtrack

my point is the trackage used by a train may not be only be leased or not even owned by the RR operating trains over them

When I was still working, I stumbled across several files that 'detailed' the ancestry of CSX broken down by their premerger parts, Chessie and Seaboard (this was pre ConRail acquisition).  As I recall there were approximately 300 named entities on the Chessie side and well over 200 named entities on the Seaboard side.

When the idea for railroads germinated and sprouted in the 19th Century the view of those involved was local - how to tap the economics of the next town over or other such local aims.  At the inception of the railroad 'mania' the intent was to build local, as their was little nationwide viewpoint as most all society was local in scope.  As we are approaching the conclusion of the second century of railroads existence society has a totally different viewpoint - county - state - nation - internationally and world wide.

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Posted by MJ4562 on Tuesday, October 5, 2021 7:51 PM

BaltACD
When I was still working, I stumbled across several files that 'detailed' the ancestry of CSX broken down by their premerger parts, Chessie and Seaboard (this was pre ConRail acquisition).  As I recall there were approximately 300 named entities on the Chessie side and well over 200 named entities on the Seaboard side.

When the idea for railroads germinated and sprouted in the 19th Century the view of those involved was local - how to tap the economics of the next town over or other such local aims.  At the inception of the railroad 'mania' the intent was to build local, as their was little nationwide viewpoint as most all society was local in scope.  As we are approaching the conclusion of the second century of railroads existence society has a totally different viewpoint - county - state - nation - internationally and world wide.

At one time I thought it would be interesting to take the Trains Railroad Family Tree charts a step further and compile information on the railroads that made up the Class I starting points for those family trees.  I quickly realized why they chose those starting points and that it was a Quixotic venture to try to go further into the past.  In quite a few cases it took several different corporations just to complete the original line, with many going bankrupt before a single locomotive ever ran on the track.  Each class I of the 1950s could easily be made up of hundreds of separate precursor railroad corporations. 

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Posted by tree68 on Tuesday, October 5, 2021 8:15 PM

Example - what is now the St Lawrence Sub of CSX began as the Rome and Watertown.  It was then extended to become the Rome, Watertown, and Ogdensburg.  I don't recall what the line north of Massena began as.  

Eventually the Syracuse Northern was folded in and the line between Rome and Richland was cut back, resulting in the current route from Syracuse to Massena.

I'm pretty sure I've missed something, but my copy of Hungerford's book is in the bed of the truck and I don't feel like moving the truck out of the garage to retrieve it.

And that doesn't begin to address a number of little lines, like the Sackets Harbor and Ellisburg, or the Carthage, Watertown & Sackets Harbor, the Utica & Black River, the Carthage and Copenhagen, and a slew of others, mostly long gone.

A study of the New York Central will reveal that the good Commodore strung together a bunch of city-to-city railroads to create the line from Albany to Buffalo, etc.

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Posted by wjstix on Thursday, October 7, 2021 10:16 AM

cv_acr

In the case of CMQ, being a US-centred railway, I wouldn't be surprise that it's technically owned by SOO Line, not directly by Canadian Pacific.

 
Probably true. As I understand it, all CP property in the USA is owned by Soo Line, and operations run through the Soo Line Building in downtown Minneapolis. If the CP-KCS merger goes through, it sounds like the CP's US HQ would switch to KCS in Kansas City.
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Posted by ccltrains on Wednesday, November 10, 2021 10:07 AM
If my memory is correct was the current CMQ the original CP line across Maine that CP sold. When CP originally owned this line how was it handled legally to meet any government ownership rules?
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Posted by cv_acr on Wednesday, November 10, 2021 10:21 AM

ccltrains
If my memory is correct was the current CMQ the original CP line across Maine that CP sold. When CP originally owned this line how was it handled legally to meet any government ownership rules?

There was something called the "International of Maine Division" - some US-acquired boxcars were lettered for this to mark them as US cars. (Before the introduction of CPAA reporting marks for US cars.)

http://canadianfreightcargallery.ca/cgi-bin/image.pl?i=cp269255&o=cprail

I'm not sure if this was a totally different legal US entity for the purposes of your question, but could be the answer.

Also it's true that PART of the CMQ was the old CP line. But most of the CMQ was ex-Bangor & Aroostook Railway. And not all of the old CP line went to what eventually became CMQ; part of it is currently owned by Eastern Maine/New Brunswick Southern Railways. (Eastern Maine Ry. and Maine Northern Ry. are NBSR's US subsidiaries to operate their American trackage.)

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Posted by mudchicken on Thursday, November 11, 2021 8:19 AM

The STB filings pretty well detail who is what in the filing dockets. The predecessor railroads can be detailed in GO-20 and GO-26 ICC valuation dockets.

It's as railroad. The shiny toys running on the railroad, just so much chattel. There are several shortline railroads out there that, if all the rolling stock they own all came home at once, they wouldn't fit. Leasing companies and fleet owners all have "X" or "V" in their UMLER initials.

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Posted by mudchicken on Thursday, November 11, 2021 8:25 AM

The STB filings pretty well detail who is what in the filing dockets. The predecessor railroads can be detailed in GO-20 and GO-26 ICC valuation dockets. To see the pieces and parts, along with how the railroads were put together, GO-26 and GO-20 (GO=General Orders; part of the administrative instructions to go with ICC Act of 1913/ Valuation Act/ICC Uniform System of Accounts)) probably were liberally used as a guide for those charts and family trees youi saw in TRAINS.

GregC: It's as railroad. The shiny toys running on the railroad, just so much chattel. There are several shortline railroads out there that, if all the rolling stock they own all came home at once, they wouldn't fit. Leasing companies and fleet owners all have "X" or "V" in their UMLER initials.

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by NKP guy on Thursday, November 11, 2021 9:12 AM

tree68
A study of the New York Central will reveal that the good Commodore strung together a bunch of city-to-city railroads to create the line from Albany to Buffalo, etc.

  Not to put too fine a point on it, but I think "Commodore" Vanderbilt didn't have much to do with the New York Central until he bought it.  The string of smaller city-to-city lines was put together by the likes of Erastus Corning and others.  Vanderbilt owned the Hudson River Railroad and then later (1868?) bought the NYC which already was operating from Albany to Buffalo.

   Likewise, the Lake Shore RR was a creature of Clevelanders like Amasa Stone and others, which Vanderbilt bought in 1869 and controlled in order to have his New York to Chicago line.

   Vanderbilt was a financier, not a railroader, and in his biography his railroad interests are a remarkably short chapter in the last part of his life.

   Still, I admire his statue in NYC every time I see it.  The man was a builder.

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Posted by tree68 on Thursday, November 11, 2021 10:08 AM

NKP guy
  Not to put too fine a point on it,

Clarification/correction gladly noted.

It was likely some his granddaughter's money (not that her husband wasn't the main source) that built was is now the Adirondack Railroad.

 

 

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