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String Lining.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, April 6, 2020 10:16 AM

Judging by the size of the cylinder, I would guess that it's a cross-compound.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Overmod on Monday, April 6, 2020 10:38 AM

Yes, but the Richmond compounds for Grand Trunk (both the 2-6-0s and the 2-8-0s appear to have had common cylinder dimensions) had the HP cylinder on the left side.

I concur that 326 was likely cross-compound.

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, April 6, 2020 11:55 AM

And, I wonder how many people who saw "Compound" on the cab knew what it meant.

Johnny

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, April 6, 2020 5:18 PM

Deggesty
And, I wonder how many people who saw "Compound" on the cab knew what it meant.

Likely a lot.  During the roughly decade and a half of the evolving compound craze, 'using the steam twice' became a kind of Gilded Age equivalent of the kind of applied techology we associated with 'aerospace' in the late Fifties and Sixties.  It broke the increasingly severe limitations that faster and heavier motive power imposed on strictly saturated boilers, and made increased pressure something that could be practically used to generate increased power.

Its second wave (which can be roughly marked by Vauclain abandoning the outside-four-cylinder type of Vauclain Compound and embracing the four-cylinder balanced type of Vauclain Compound) added at least the possibility of implicit high-speed balancing (and limited rod, crank, and bearing stresses) to the Great Thermodynamic Savings.

It is difficult to realize just how revolutionary the Schmidt-type superheater was, when metallurgical technology advanced far enough to make it practical.  It takes very careful analysis to see why it worked so well when the many other types of arrangement either did not or showed maintenance disadvantages out of all proportion to what they provided.  What is even more interesting is how the subsequent attempts at re-introducing compounding in the United States*, right up to the proposed adaptation of French technology as a kind of 'alternative' to what the N&W booster valve could do, were relatively unsuccessful...

*I say it this way to leave out N&W, which basically kept compounding from WWI and improved the practicality of locomotives of that general type without radically changing the technology.  The 'booster valve' as built was basically a device to provide a little extra reheat in the LP steam, not an attempt to better balance the contribution of the two engines at high speeds...
NDG
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Posted by NDG on Wednesday, April 8, 2020 3:55 PM
 
Another Bridge.
 
 

Thank You.

NDG
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Posted by NDG on Friday, April 10, 2020 2:06 PM

Overmod

Yes, but the Richmond compounds for Grand Trunk (both the 2-6-0s and the 2-8-0s appear to have had common cylinder dimensions) had the HP cylinder on the left side.

I concur that 326 was likely cross-compound.

 

 

 

GTR. Compound 326, Again.  Edmonton. 
 
 
Scroll Down to page 51.
 
 
FYI.
 
Cover Photo.
 
Same Gauge, Different Voltages.
 
Right/East wire for Montreal Tramways.
 
Electric Switch, foreground. 
 
 
FWIW. Re Edmonton.
 
Have never seen a photo of CN 15702 as Hump Rider Car @ Neebing.
 

Thank You..

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, April 10, 2020 3:47 PM

Today has been WINDY.  Drove to my non-Big Box hardware store - saw a bird trying to fly into the wind having ZERO ground speed !!!!

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Friday, April 10, 2020 4:07 PM

In winds like today's I've seen hawks intentionally hovering above a certain spot of ground to wait and catch their next meal!  The buzzards can tack and sail gracefully over lots of territory with close to zero expenditure of energy.  Reminds me of the wonderful title of Scott Weidensaul's book on birds, Living on the Wind

This kind of wind would blow box cars down the track, especially if it's a quartering wind and the doors are open - the interior catches the wind like a cup or sail.

- PDN.  

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
NDG
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Posted by NDG on Saturday, April 11, 2020 4:28 AM

Now on ebay.

 
St Albans, VT.  CV Roundhouse and Standpipe to left.
 
Early Nose Crest.
 
 

Thank You.

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, April 11, 2020 12:01 PM

We need more of the story on the Grand Trunk 'Rhode Island' compound 326.

The CRO article provided by NDG is highly useful, but it does not contain any discussion of the actual testing or problems encountered.  The engine was rebuilt to simple in 1905, still firmly in the 'saturated' era, so evidently the operating advantages of cross-compound operation in freight service were not sufficiently realized.

Note the dimensions: 19" and 29" x 25" stroke, vs 18x26 for the assumedly-successful simple Moguls of lower TE.  This is almost exactly a  nominal 2-1/3 expansion ratio.  I do not know if the HP and LP cutoff could be independently controlled or if there was a riding cutoff on one side to make balance adjustment easier on the road -- that is, assuming that cutoff would, in fact, give sufficient mass flow to get the engine balanced. 

Of course at typical speed for 2-6-0 traffic in that era, balance 'at speed' might not have been  a strong priority ... but surge and nosing would probably be.  

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, April 11, 2020 1:12 PM

NDG
 
Another Bridge.
 
 

Thank You.

 

Bloody pathetic.

Miningman said it best concerning another bridge collapse:

"The Romans could have built a bridge at that spot and it would still be there!"   

He's not kidding, here's a list.  It usually took an earthquake, or an act of war, or some other act of man to destroy an Roman bridge.  Those guys built for keeps!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_bridges  

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, April 11, 2020 1:33 PM

The Romans invented the haunch-loaded arch and hydraulic cement.  They also, however, invented the 'insula' apartment house, much more similar to the bridge in question in the video...

There is a parallel, however, with the Pequest Fill: when active commerce no longer used the Roman bridges and structures, they became a source of construction material -- the survivors remaining so more because they were too expensive to 'recycle'.

The Persians had much more permanent bridges.  But few if any of them remain.  Why?  Instead of using cement they used low-melting metal alloy as the "mortar" for stone aggregate... and this could be broken up, melted out, and 'adaptively reused' in an easier manner than re-calcining cement.

The Persians had a far more permanent approach to bridgebuilding

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, April 11, 2020 2:55 PM

Overmod

The Romans invented the haunch-loaded arch and hydraulic cement.  They also, however, invented the 'insula' apartment house, much more similar to the bridge in question in the video...

There is a parallel, however, with the Pequest Fill: when active commerce no longer used the Roman bridges and structures, they became a source of construction material -- the survivors remaining so more because they were too expensive to 'recycle'.

The Persians had much more permanent bridges.  But few if any of them remain.  Why?  Instead of using cement they used low-melting metal alloy as the "mortar" for stone aggregate... and this could be broken up, melted out, and 'adaptively reused' in an easier manner than re-calcining cement.

The Persians had a far more permanent approach to bridgebuilding

 

Well you said it Mod-man, the Persians had  a much more permanent approach to bridge building, but their mistake was to use a "mortar" that was easily pirated and re-cycled.  Which is why, as you say, few of them remain.  So their permanence didn't count for much in the long run.

You can't expect permanence when you build with materials people can run off with when no-one's looking.

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, April 11, 2020 3:22 PM

Yup, agree, dosen't count!  Interesting though.  It's kind of like "I used to be a wealthy man,  but not anymore"

Meanwhile, what better place than String Lining for this : ( with the added caveat... does it count? )

The CannonBall Run

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/11/us/speeding-tickets-cars-coronavirus.html

 

 

 

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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, April 11, 2020 3:45 PM

Miningman
Yup, agree, dosen't count!  Interesting though.  It's kind of like "I used to be a wealthy man,  but not anymore"

Meanwhile, what better place than String Lining for this : ( with the added caveat... does it count? )

The CannonBall Run

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/11/us/speeding-tickets-cars-coronavirus.html

Records are made to be broken!

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Posted by MikeF90 on Saturday, April 11, 2020 3:46 PM

Now for some actual string-lining. A few days ago BNSF pulled an EB freight onto the ground at the Bealville 2MT, UP Mojave sub. YT drone video is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmWZZKW0QG8   Someone's got some 'splainin to do.

Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, April 11, 2020 4:56 PM

NDG--- Heard from Mike, he likes your posted pic and adds one.

NDG still remembers St. Albans, as he would. I like that green & yellow blend for Easter
 
 
CN FM units on the Central Vermont
 
MikeF90-- Beautiful country. Dosen't look too bad, looks like they got a good handle on it all. 
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Posted by Erik_Mag on Saturday, April 11, 2020 5:17 PM

NDG
Another Bridge.
 
 

Thank You.

A failure to design in redundancy so a single point of failure cause the entore structure to collapse? Lesson learned from the collapse of the Silver Bridge over the Ohio river in 1967.

With the caveat that I am not a civil engineer, my understanding is that bridge collapse led to much more attention to avoiding single points of critical failure. In Californie, the collapse of several overpasses during the 1971 Sylmar earthquake led to providing more hoop strength (tensile) in the bridge columns for new designs. The 1989 Loma Prieta quake showed that pre-1972 columns needed to be reinforced and the 1994 Northridge quake showed that reinforcement needed to be a top priority.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Saturday, April 11, 2020 10:36 PM

Overmod

We need more of the story on the Grand Trunk 'Rhode Island' compound 326.

The CRO article provided by NDG is highly useful, but it does not contain any discussion of the actual testing or problems encountered.  The engine was rebuilt to simple in 1905, still firmly in the 'saturated' era, so evidently the operating advantages of cross-compound operation in freight service were not sufficiently realized.

Note the dimensions: 19" and 29" x 25" stroke, vs 18x26 for the assumedly-successful simple Moguls of lower TE.  This is almost exactly a  nominal 2-1/3 expansion ratio.  I do not know if the HP and LP cutoff could be independently controlled or if there was a riding cutoff on one side to make balance adjustment easier on the road -- that is, assuming that cutoff would, in fact, give sufficient mass flow to get the engine balanced. 

Of course at typical speed for 2-6-0 traffic in that era, balance 'at speed' might not have been  a strong priority ... but surge and nosing would probably be.  

Whatever the controls were, I wonder if the designers took the time to research and write up proper operating instructions for this new type of locomotive?

And if they did, who educated the engine crews, or were they left to 'learn for themselves' on the job?

Just like the T1......

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, April 11, 2020 11:29 PM

SD70Dude
 
Overmod

We need more of the story on the Grand Trunk 'Rhode Island' compound 326.

The CRO article provided by NDG is highly useful, but it does not contain any discussion of the actual testing or problems encountered.  The engine was rebuilt to simple in 1905, still firmly in the 'saturated' era, so evidently the operating advantages of cross-compound operation in freight service were not sufficiently realized.

Note the dimensions: 19" and 29" x 25" stroke, vs 18x26 for the assumedly-successful simple Moguls of lower TE.  This is almost exactly a  nominal 2-1/3 expansion ratio.  I do not know if the HP and LP cutoff could be independently controlled or if there was a riding cutoff on one side to make balance adjustment easier on the road -- that is, assuming that cutoff would, in fact, give sufficient mass flow to get the engine balanced. 

Of course at typical speed for 2-6-0 traffic in that era, balance 'at speed' might not have been  a strong priority ... but surge and nosing would probably be.  

Whatever the controls were, I wonder if the designers took the time to research and write up proper operating instructions for this new type of locomotive?

And if they did, who educated the engine crews, or were they left to 'learn for themselves' on the job?

Just like the T1......

Train crews in the operation of new machienry?  Hearsay!

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, April 12, 2020 10:25 AM

BaltACD
Train crews in the operation of new machinery?  Hearsay!

I love that sarc!  

Exactly why crews were expected to take to this marvelous new stuff with only casual instruction has never been quite clear to me.  What is still more fun is to look at contemporary 'catechism' and reference books for railroad men which have whole chapters about what they are expected to do out on the road to overcome what may be massive mechanical failures ... with materials and tools they were evidently expected to have with them ... and get at least the light engine 'over the road'.  The book I'm currently reading to try to find out 'tech' -- so far I think 326 may be a Rhode Island "Batchellor" compound -- what were all the CP compounds of this era? -- is Colvin's "American Compound Locomotives" (from 1903) and this is very rich in assessing the worth of a compound design, in no small part, by the relative ease with which it could be blocked or jiggered into emergency operability.

Reading between the lines: much of the 'patent' development appeared to focus either on very clever ways to manage simple-to-compound-working transition as "automatically" (and, usually, fairly quickly) as possible, or on explaining why an alert and Company-minded engineer can manage the (non-patented style of) transition valve better than any dumb (but patented) setup of intercepting and regulating valves, etc.

Presumably anyone who would read 'Catechism of the Locomotive' would also get hold of books like American Compound Locomotives and carefully read them for pointers...

 

NDG
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Posted by NDG on Sunday, April 12, 2020 10:57 AM

 

More.

The local Museum has several of the Loco Catch books from the era dealing with Compounds and Compound Operation.

Lovely Ink Drawings.

Ditto on Headlghts, Oil, Carbide and Arc.

Thin metal sheet in holder on rear of lamp to be placed in front of lamp to eclipse flame when In Clear at Meets rather than relighting same.

 CPR Employee Time Tables had explict Special Instructions regarding Operation of Compound Locomotives regarding Exhaust Beats and Draft, Wheel Slip, using Engine Cylinders as air compressors to hold back train and so on.

( The Sound of Compound and Non-Compound/Simple double or triple heading would make a great recording! N'est Ce Pas?

Throw in a Shay, just the heck of it.

Nipper, rather than Alexa, listening?? )

Ditto Data on placement of Air Brake Equipped freight cars in Train, Retainers and Hand Brakes and Whistle Signals pertinent to.

A conpendium of history and information to those so sloped/inclined?

 

Thank You.

 

NDG
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Posted by NDG on Sunday, April 12, 2020 11:00 AM

St. Albans.

When New, the CNR A and B OPs were used on the St. Albans run ex Montreal.
 
Here are more photos of aforesaid.
 
Arrival Montreal One 1 new A and 3 new Bs from CLC in Kingston, Ontario.
 
 
Allowed CNR to make 3 A-B Sets w previous CN 8700-02.
 
A Units Even Nos . B Units Odd Nos.
 
Renumbered to 9300s in mid-fifties,
 
A-B @ St Albans.
 
 
For the Modellers?
 
In the colour view of CN 9306 the trailing B Unit has already had it's D/B Hatch replaced with another from an A Unit.  Note Window and later Stamped Louvres.
 
Examine various D/B Hatch Windows and Louvres in following.
 
 

Thank You.

 

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Sunday, April 12, 2020 8:07 PM

One of my favorite HO locomotive models is a FM C-liner in Northern Pacific "North Coast Limited" colors, lettered as No. 6500.  You can see one at this link if you click on the thumbnail to get the enlarged version:

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-ahm-rivarossi-engine-1823854648 

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ahm-tempo-fairbanks-morse-liner-np-142547647 

However, I doubt if NP ever owned a C-liner.  But I just like the look! 

List of "Surviving & Preserved Fairbanks-Morse Locomotives":

http://www.thedieselshop.us/PRSVDfm.HTML 

- PDN. 

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
NDG
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Posted by NDG on Monday, April 13, 2020 12:04 PM

 

Nice CN Photo.
 
Now on ebay.
 
 
The Plumbing is LOVELY!
 
Hand Valves w Extension Rods are to vent steam during warm up and to allow steam to escape if Throttle leaking which could cause Engine to move.
 
Just to Rear of FWH are two angled fittings to connect to Duplex Pump in Roundhouse to circulate solution to dissolve mineral buildup on outer surface of elements from feedwater from Pump. ( As in Kettle on Stove. )
 
Large lagged horizontal pipe brings exhaust steam from Cylinder Casting to heat water.
 
Condensate returned to Tender. Engineer's Side.
 

Thank You.

NDG
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Posted by NDG on Tuesday, April 21, 2020 9:40 PM

 

 

Mount Royal Tunnel Shaft.
 
My first train ride after the War was behind CNR Electrics thru the Mount Royal Tunnel, changing  power to Two 2 Pacifics @ Val Royal for the run North on the Monfort Sub on the Lac Remi line.
 
A trip of adventure?  Deep snow, cold, slow, stopped at every station, stopped to water the engines, it got dark, boring.
 
Watching the light on the electrical compartment at the end of the coach go on and off, with a clacking of relays as lighting switched from Generator below to Batteries as speed rose and fell.
 
A steam line broke under the coach ahead and we had to set it out to continue heat thru to coaches behind as winter.
 
Big delay.
 
Tiring.
 
I came home w Pink Eye.
 
 
Regardless, I LOVED the Tunnel Operation, and the Electrics and the switch to Steam, 'til the Diesels came.
 
 
In the centre of the tunnel was/is a vertical shaft to the surface, and a special platform and lights at that location which could be seen from cab rides.
 
LOVED the Tunnel!!
 
One day we were out in the car and my Father said we were going to see something really interesting.
 
We drove up on the Mountain along Maplewood, then, and pulled into to the side of the street adjacent to a small brick building.
 
Dull as heck, I thought.
 
He then said this was the surface building of a shaft down to The Tunnel far below.
 
Now a VERY Interesting structure, indeed.
 
He mentioned it was guarded during the War, as was the Aqueduct which brought St. Lawrence Water to the Atwater Filtration Plant downtown.
 
A small part of History, forgotten and now long gone.
 
Building appears here in this 1947 view directly beneath digits 27 at top left.
 
 
Note open reservoir to the East.
 
Note Montreal Tramways track turning North on Bellingham from Maplewood, and Route of Tunnel lined in.
 
 
Excursion MTCo 1054.  Rte. 29 Outremont.
 
 
 
 
Part 2.
 
Everything changes.
 
A New Metro Station is now at that location, named Edouard Montpetit.
 
The brick building now a grate out front, next to white truck.
 
 
The street names Hyphenated, as is the wont.
 
Streetcars gone, August 1958.
 
Old Electrics gone, too. Voltage changed.
 
I was there, along with so many others, on their last day, back in '95.
 
The Reservoir covered over.
 
Nothing the same.
 
Tunnel still below.
 

Thank You.

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Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, April 21, 2020 11:33 PM

NDG-- Very interesting , very good .

I have parallel experiences from youth, different equipment, buildings, locomotives, and so on but still very recognizable with your journey thru the tunnel and switching  power from Electric to Steam. 

I knew and with a very strong sense that this was just all too good to last. Then, as you say the Diesels came and everything changed and cascaded downward from there. 

So my question to you is this-- Did you think, did you get that same sense that all this was just too good to last? That without really knowing about Diesels and the major changes to come that somehow this would all disappear right before your eyes? 

Now I didn't know the wholesale changes to come, but there were dark clouds that I had no idea what they were but that this would be all taken away, disappear and never ever come back. 

Perhaps the observed and sensed perfection of it all, the excitement , the pure enjoyment, even the calm but active ecstasy of it all gave one a sense there was only one way to go and that was it would end. 

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Posted by SD70Dude on Tuesday, April 21, 2020 11:51 PM

CN's Thornton Tunnel in Vancouver has a similar ventilation building, disguised as a house:

PressReader - Vancouver Sun: 2017-12-09 - Empty house a front for ...

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

NDG
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Posted by NDG on Wednesday, April 22, 2020 6:21 AM

 Duplicate Post.

 Sorry.

 Thank You.

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