I have been following this series, with interest, from central Illinois.
I note that the Trains weekly email seems to come later than it used to, and has not yet arrived today. Also the Trains picture of the day is often running for several consecutive days. An example "Mac in the Mist" was picture of the day from Feb 15th through Feb 26th.
I will be greatly disappointed if Kalmbach deletes these forums!
rdamon...whois says it expires on 7/28/2020...
I own two domains which I believe are still valid, but due to mix-ups on the billing, neither will get you anywhere.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Message on postimage.org ... Funny .. whois says it expires on 7/28/2020 ... must have been hosting some improper images. Also funny that postimage.org works.
While we hope to resolve the issue, we chose postimg.CC as our new home.Please update codes embedded in your websites.
K. P. HarrierK.P. checked it out and discovered his service for hosting photos apparently somehow got caught using an unauthorized web extension, and all his photos of late for the forum were address relinked.
Translation: the postimage.org domain was taken down by the registrar for unknown reasons (I suspect non-payment of renewal fees). Very frustrating.
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
K.P., I don’t know if you are a sports follower or not, but for a comparison, for this thread you have been like the 1950s Yankees or the 1960s Celtics or the 1960s Packers - a true champion dynasty of excellence year in and year out. No matter what the future brings, thank you for sharing your expertise and exploration efforts these past 10 years. We are all the richer for it! Sincerest thanks!
A New Underpass is Open and …
… Interpreting Strange Things
The new Workman Mill Road-Puente Ave. roadway underpass under the SP Sunset Route track(s) and the paralleling Valley Blvd., which new underpass is most closely associated with the unincorporated community of Bassett (south) and the City of Industry (north) was visited Tuesday, April 10, 2018.
K.P. had worked-up seven posts (Parts A-G) of underpass related photos, a whole wealth of new things and matters of special interest. Even an interpretation of the never activated seven years old signals atop the nearby “Up and Over” flyover was dealt with. Then, and it likely was just a total coincidence, but besides the forum odd things taking place forumist Electroliner 1935 reported strange things involving already posted photos! K.P. checked it out and discovered his service for hosting photos apparently somehow got caught using an unauthorized web extension, and all his photos of late for the forum were address relinked. It would take too much time to change all those posts PLUS K.P. cannot now edit posts anyway. So, with the photobucket.com and TRAINS fiascos, this latest waste of time was the last straw.
However, K.P. believes he has found a way to use those relinked postimage (postimg) photos, and may do just that in the days to come … if he can deal with this chronically malfunctioning posting site ...
Nevertheless, K.P. now plans on sitting back, being less active this thread-wise, and seeing what develops …
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
This is one addess I see when I click on your photo icon,
https://s26.postimg.org/gc6b8p51l/DSC_4963-_M.jpg
And this is message displayed,
s26.postimg.org’s server DNS address could not be found.
Out and About … Tuesday, April 10, 2018
City of Industry, CA
After a timely dispatch to Fontana (CA), the future, under construction grade separation at Fairway Drive on the LA&SL line was went to. NO stopping spot was found for photos. The whole area was tore up, with the businesses to the south basically closed and piles of dirt in parking lots. Southeast of the grade crossing were huge, I believe orange fitting pipes. Then K.P. went west. Returning a couple of hours later, the southwest side of the grade crossing had a SLANTED concrete forming of some sort, of an unusual height, as if the tracks will halfway rise while Fairway Drive will halfway lower.
That southwest side new SLANTING concrete construction resembled (“resembled”) the slanting construction of the center roadway construction for the south Milliken Ave. LA&SL-Mission Blvd. overpass in Ontario a few years ago (photo right).
November 19, 2015
The finished southern Milliken Ave. overpass, with a slanting downward roadway of that concrete-work:
March 13, 2017
Back at Fairway Drive again, the slanting concrete apparently with be for the rising tracks.
On rare occasions, K.P. has a passenger (or is a passenger) on dispatches. If such occurs anytime soon, he will try to visit that Fairway Drive grade separation construction and attempt a few photos from the auto’s passenger seat. But such is unlikely in the immediate future.
In a few days photos will be shown to the forum of the finished underpass going under the SP Sunset Route at Workman Mill Road / Puente Ave. at Valley Blvd. that mvs had alerted us to. A visit was made also to the very nearby ‘Up and Over’ with NO evidence that the short distance of two-tracking there will be finished anytime soon.
rdamon Doesn't this seem to happen every year? I think before UP stored all those locomotives in AZ they either autoracks or well cars stored.
Doesn't this seem to happen every year? I think before UP stored all those locomotives in AZ they either autoracks or well cars stored.
Once in a while, one can drive CAL-99 between Bakersfield and Modesto and see strings of empty well cars sitting in UP sidings probably north of Fresno, if memory serves. It has been mercifully more than a year now since I've made that drive so something else might be going on this year.
None of those tariffs are in effect yet...only a threat and they are in negotiations. The clock is ticking though.
Fred M. Cain (4-5):
It just happened.
Trump instigated severe tariffs, and predictably foreign government’s retaliated. At this point, that is basically all I know of it.
My (“my”) interpretation of those well cars in the siding hasn’t been confirmed by sources, but that siding is a key one on the line, and with it blocked that line goes 26 miles without a place to meet. I personally haven’t seen sidings on that line blocked for years, in less good economic times.
Eventually, a source will come through on this.
K.P.
INTERMODAL NOSEDIVING
K.P.,
Uh, well, maybe not or at least I'm confused. Progressive rail reports that carloadings were up 5% in March with intermodal up a whopping 6.5%. So, if loads are nosediving it must be a very recent development.
https://www.progressiverailroading.com/rail_industry_trends/news/US-rail-traffic-up-5-percent-in-March--54354?email=fredmcain2003@yahoo.com&utm_medium=email&utm_source=prdailynews&utm_campaign=prdailynews4/5/2018
Regards,
Fred M. Cain
ccltrains Since not much is happening on the Sunset route here is a comment on the other side of the world. Recently our “beloved leader” Kim Jung Un went to Beijing on a green and yellow armored train. Does anyone have any pictures or information on this train? Several years ago Un’s father went to Moscow on the yellow and green armored train. Both China and North Korea have standard gauge rail lines but Russia is wider, about 5’. Does anyone know where and how the trucks were changed for the gauge change?
Since not much is happening on the Sunset route here is a comment on the other side of the world. Recently our “beloved leader” Kim Jung Un went to Beijing on a green and yellow armored train. Does anyone have any pictures or information on this train? Several years ago Un’s father went to Moscow on the yellow and green armored train. Both China and North Korea have standard gauge rail lines but Russia is wider, about 5’. Does anyone know where and how the trucks were changed for the gauge change?
The locomotives seen in the video are Chinese type DF11z, one of them being DF11z 0001. The DF11z has a 16V280Z four stroke engine developing about 4800HP in each of the two units.
In North Korea itself, there are different types of locomotives and I don't know if any are dedicated to Kim's train.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_stock_of_the_Korean_State_Railway#Diesel_Locomotive_Classes
At the change of gauge stations, regular passenger trains are jacked up one car at a time and the trucks are changed out for the gauge to which the train is moving.
This occurs regularly between China and Mongolia, through which Chinese trains usually travel towards Russia. I expect that the same equipment is used between North Korea and Russia, although there are no regular through passenger trains to my knowledge. There may be freight trains between Russia and North Korea but but I have no information on that.
I would expect that Kim has a set of Russian gauge trucks for his train held at the border. I expect that these would be kept secure to avoid any technical or other problems.
A trip to Russia might be made via China and Mongolia depending on the destination.
Peter
There is a third route from LA to Chicago but it is the scenic route. This would be going north through the San Jouquin valley to Sacramento then on the Central Pacific/D&RGW east finally getting to Chicago. Much longer and slower and I doubt if any LA-Chicage traffic goes that way.
Your going to lose a lot of the senior folks with a Facebook page...they won't do it. Data mining where you are the commodity, not the customer/consumer. They know the difference.
Well lets hope that does not happen. I have the private emails of 4 of the members. That would at least get me pointed in the right direction if it all came apart.
By the way I think Kalmbach does an outstanding service here despite the whining and complaining, so thanks guys and gals.
However, as good as the Trains Forum is, the Classic Forum got ya beat!
Miningman...or perhaps have some rally point where we can fiqure out how to proceed.
There are other fora - and many are on them already. Just a matter of finding a central home, if that's the desire.
For that matter, it's not that hard to create a "members only" FB page. I'm on several.
K.P. Harrier-- Another good rule of life is, unfortunately, 'People will always let you down',...you need to think of the Mrs. and yourself. Hawaii sounds pretty darn good. Hopefully the Forum is still around when you get back. Of course I don't have to tell you those things, it's just to let you know some are listening.
I would like to think Kalmbach would be thoughtful and classy enough to give us a fair heads up if the Forums are going to be discontinued, but perhaps not and just chop chop it's gone.
Some warning would at least give us some time to exchange emails with other members or perhaps have some rally point where we can fiqure out how to proceed.
Have no idea of the costs involved in providing these Forums on Trains and Classic.
Was the Forum on Astronomy just discontinued 'like that', no warning?Believe you stated that was the case. Was there a lot of participation, lots of posters and subjects, somewhat like on here?
Out of our control in any case, but we should be prepared well if the worst happens.
Situation Comparison
In behalf of another thread K.P. drove way, way out in the desert, to Needles, CA, to get a true picture of a news situation. Afterwards, he swung by Kelso out in that desert also, on the Los Angeles & Salt Lake (LA&SL) line, to check on a status situation there. The forum may remember back in 2016 the old target signals were replaced with the new color light type, which included new CP boxes in conjunction with Positive Train Control.
In the photo above, at the west end of the Chase siding, the typical LA&SL new installation is seen, with a single lamp lower head for a red over flashing red indication to go into sidings. We determined that UP used such on shorter sidings, like 6000 feet. The Sunset Route sidings (Los Angeles-El Paso) are typically 8000 feet or more, hence, a red over yellow indication is most often used on the remaining single-track sections.
In that LA&SL signal conversion the old signals and CP boxes (dating back to 1942!) were collected together at Kelso, and were unfenced and out in the open for all to see.
K.P. on this visit close to two years later found all those old signals and boxes gone, presumably having been cannibalized of reusable parts and then discarded. Everything had been by the historic, restored Kelso LA&SL depot.
Just thought the forum would be interested to know of this.
The LA&SL and the Sunset Route (western portion) are TWO routes UP has for Los Angeles-Chicago traffic.
About Change
Very recently there were major changes here at the forums, and the post counts have dropped off dramatically.
Unfortunately, K.P. was affected too, who had been leaning towards visiting the recent Sunset Route two-tracking west of Houston, TX, and wanted to get photos in the nearby Richmond area of that Sunset Route UP bridge over the Brazos River there that had become super unstable and sank downward a bit. (It has reportedly been repaired.). Furthermore, not too far away sort of midway between Houston and Dallas is the current construction of the new UP Brazos Classification Yard that may or may not have an impact on the Sunset Route. Photos documenting that would be wonderful to have. But …
The situation here at the forums has become unstable, with no guarantee the forums will even be around tomorrow, and could be eventually eliminated. That happened with TRAINS’ sister magazine Astronomy. Some may remember I posted some photos therein about the Mt. Palomar observatory up in the mountains not too far from Oceanside, CA, including interior shots of the huge 200-inch mirrored telescope.
Both April 28, 2010
On the top just above view, note the SMALL appearing door on the left. That round building is huge! The interior shot back then was taken because an observatory staffer invited me in, on the actual floor level, for some unknown reason. What a gem of an opportunity! But, all was for nothing because Astronomy Magazine eliminated their forums some months later. All my effort and expense went down the tube. Such makes an indelible impression on one’s consciousness. So, with the recent development at TRAINS I need to rethink spending money in behalf of the forums, if nothing else because the forums may not be around tomorrow. The whole current fiasco may have been a blessing in disguise, with time now on my side! Regardless, plans are to visit the Yuma-Wellton, AZ area on the Sunset Route maybe in June or July (or August). By then, with the passage of a little time, I should have a pretty good idea of what I want to spend my set aside money on … if I want to spend any at all …
The forum may be interested to know very recently a group (“group”) of different threads was posted in, and those posts were all held for approval. Eventually, they were ALL approved … at the SAME time! AT THE SAME TIME! That strikes me as robo approvals … Is what happened at Astronomy coming next to the TRAINS forums? Can everyone now see my skepticism about spending money on a Texas trip for the forum? Should the Mrs. and I fly together to Hawaii instead? (We do that once and a while …)
A new development has arisen. Forum contributor mvs indicated that the Workman Mill Road / Puente Ave. underpass is about to open in the Industry, CA area. That underpass arrangement is quite a bit more extensive than most, and would be very worthwhile to photo-document. When K.P. is able get out that way to photo document the underpass is unknown, though …
HOWEVER!
There have been some reports that Intermodal traffic is nose-diving, possibly because of the new tariffs and trade war activity among the nations as a result of President Trump’s actions. Over that new underpass reported just above, K.P. wonders if Intermodal cars are now occupying that CTC Bassett siding, as they occasionally do. Interesting, yesterday, K.P. was by the Phelan CTC siding on the Palmdale Cutoff (such cutoff wyes into the Sunset Route in the Colton area). There was a bunch of engineless Intermodal well-cars in that siding! But, he could not stop for photos, but did so today with plenty of time on his hands.
If a trade war is happening, that is very bad news for the UP railroad, and could make the lack of two-tracking (because of Positive Train Control) even more severe, and end any hope of two-tracking in 2019! There are a lot of forces going every which way right now … Will the western Phoenix line suddenly have Intermodal cars from end to end on it? To survive (“survive”) weird economic times, will TRAINS Magazine do away with the forums similar to what Astronomy Magazine did?
Take care all, and it is hoped everyone tries to have a good day in this very, very precarious time,
Apologies if this has been posted --
Per the 2/2018 ACE meeting minutes, ribbon-cutting for the Puente Avenue grade separation will take place this Friday 4/6.
They must be close to completing that underpass?
Demolition of existing structures in the path of the SR347 UP overpass project in Maricopa has finally begun: http://www.inmaricopa.com/copa-center-razed-for-overpass-video/
Note the CB&Q observation car and the vintage SP water tower in the background. At approximately this location, there was originally a branch up to Phoenix along the same path as SR347. The construction of the Phoenix Sub ended its usefulness, although a few miles remain, stub-ended at an industrial park on tribal land in Chandler.
John Timm
PNWRMNM (3-26):
There is NO discernable pattern to the Intermodal trains between Los Angeles and El Paso. There are three different routes east of El Paso, each with its own sidings length specifications, so there are NO consistent patterns, including what is on the head-ends and DPU’s.
ccltrains Mac We both are correct. The government surveyed several routes over the mountains. The railroad, not the government, selected the Kicking Hourse route to keep the American lines out of Canada. I think my idea of the government demanded the K H pass route came from the book Van Horne's Road. Unfortunately I cannot locate my copy to verify or shoot down my statement. CP later built the Kettle line which is closer to the 49th parallel but this was built to tap the mining areas. Van Horne came in board just before construction started in K H line. He built most of the mountain line and was present at the final spike ceremony at Craigallie (sp?). Drove the Trans Canada highway several times with great views of the line. Rode the Rocky Mountaineer train over K H which was great.
Mac
We both are correct. The government surveyed several routes over the mountains. The railroad, not the government, selected the Kicking Hourse route to keep the American lines out of Canada. I think my idea of the government demanded the K H pass route came from the book Van Horne's Road. Unfortunately I cannot locate my copy to verify or shoot down my statement. CP later built the Kettle line which is closer to the 49th parallel but this was built to tap the mining areas. Van Horne came in board just before construction started in K H line. He built most of the mountain line and was present at the final spike ceremony at Craigallie (sp?). Drove the Trans Canada highway several times with great views of the line. Rode the Rocky Mountaineer train over K H which was great.
KP,
Speaking of Beaumont Hill, how many 40 foot or better slots does the typical UP stack train have and how many units and how is that power deployed. I am guessing about 280 slots and 2x2 4400 HP units.
Mac McCulloch
kgbw49 (3-25):
It was good to hear about your successful personal observations on the east slope of Beaumont Hill between Banning and Palm Springs, CA. Sometimes there are a lot of trains there, as you saw, and other times none to very little. Interestingly, California seems to be serious about running Indio-Los Angeles commuter trains, but such would be totally incompatible with Beaumont Hill. UP likely would permit such commuter trains if California paid for a third-track. Now, that would make your travels on the east slope of Beaumont Hill even more exciting!
My familiarity with Beaumont Hill and the area you described stretches back decades. Many years ago one magazine had an account of an engineer running eastward down the east slope, in the area that you vehicle traveled, and said the SP speed limit was 25 M.P.H., and if one went one mile per hour over that they would be fired. It is assumed that was true, as trains were much slower back then. Today, the freight speed limit is 40 M.P.H. With two-tracks and with little stopping, it must be a pleasure running downhill on Beaumont Hill.
From your description you seemed to have seen a fleet meeting a fleet on a two-track line. On the single-track from Wellton to Estrella in Arizona UP might focus on fleeting, and run on that single-track one way, and then fleet the other way. The un-activated new signals in the Wellton area suggests the wye switches will be replaced with standard turnouts, thus any further two-tracking in Arizona might be a long way off.
CCL
You are correct in saying that CP had a survey through Yellowhead Pass. The Canadian Government made many and extensive surveys west of Winnepeg.
The decision NOT to use Yellowhead was made by James. J. Hill who was an early investor in CPR. See Pierre Berton The Last Spike page 13-20.
Van Horne had nothing to do with it. Hill hired Van Horne on to CPR, and after this if I recall correctly. It is in the same book.
ADRIAN BALLAM The terminals are a problem as well? I thought it was mainly the lack of double-track or longer sidings east of El Paso, because perhaps the issues are more widespread. I never knew that from the discussions. Where are the specific terminal issues you are referring to (I have feeling West Colton may be one of them) and how would they factor into the longer train equation? Your right about CN being a totally different railroad from UP, but I wasn't really comparing grades between the two in this case. I was more comparing fleet numbers and just surprised that UP has found themselves in this locomotive shortage mess, despite not reading on this until now. CN is facing a similar crisis, but it makes sense for them because they have not had anywhere near as many units as UP ever in their history and have not experienced this level of traffic growth. I guess the more units the better for trains in grade situations, but instead of comparing CN and UP here, why not compare UP and CP? CP's traverses two very steep passes on its transcon in BC and Alberta and they don't use the same number of locomotives on their trains and there is less double-track to accomodate 10,000 foot. They do frequently runs trains of that length through Rogers and Kicking Horse. I don't think Beaumount could compare to Rogers or Kicking Horse.
The terminals are a problem as well? I thought it was mainly the lack of double-track or longer sidings east of El Paso, because perhaps the issues are more widespread. I never knew that from the discussions. Where are the specific terminal issues you are referring to (I have feeling West Colton may be one of them) and how would they factor into the longer train equation?
Your right about CN being a totally different railroad from UP, but I wasn't really comparing grades between the two in this case. I was more comparing fleet numbers and just surprised that UP has found themselves in this locomotive shortage mess, despite not reading on this until now. CN is facing a similar crisis, but it makes sense for them because they have not had anywhere near as many units as UP ever in their history and have not experienced this level of traffic growth.
I guess the more units the better for trains in grade situations, but instead of comparing CN and UP here, why not compare UP and CP? CP's traverses two very steep passes on its transcon in BC and Alberta and they don't use the same number of locomotives on their trains and there is less double-track to accomodate 10,000 foot. They do frequently runs trains of that length through Rogers and Kicking Horse. I don't think Beaumount could compare to Rogers or Kicking Horse.
Adrian,
You are bouncing around more than a fart in a skillet here. I can not cite which UP terminals might be able to build a 10,000 foot train on a single departure track. There might be one or two.
As to problems, they are site specific, but the general problem is that when you double two 5,000 foot cuts together you are almost certainly hanging out on the lead, blocking it. You might even be blocking a main track. How long does it take to make an air test? Did the carmen charge and test both cuts, or does the road job spend an hour or two chaging the train before starting an air test? The only question is how much of a mess these trains create in the terminals.
You claim UP is short of power. Where did you get that? Last I knew they had 400-500 units stored and traffic volume is generally down. You say you were not comparing grades, just "fleet numbers", but you wondered why the UP had so much power on their trains. I told you why, the grades demand it. You can not take CN as a standard, becuase it is blessed with remarkably low grades. The only other road that came close was perhaps the NYC and the GN. The NYC was almost an accident in that regard and J. J. Hill demanded the best grades that could be reasonably be got becuase he knew that the road with the less severe grades could always underprice the competition, or make more money matching the high cost line's rate.
What do you intend to compare in the third paragraph? In the late 20th century the CP invested many hundreds of millions reducing the westbound grades over Kicking Horse and Rogers passes, and Notch Hill to 1%. Why? Because they could cut the power required for any given train in half!
Why westbound? Because their grain, suflur, and coal traffic is all loads west, empties east.
Power is a matter of physics, which does not vary by carrier. The amount of power is driven by ruling grades, speed required over sustained asscent, and the transit time demands of customers. Each of these can vary by route and may yield different horsepower per ton requirements. Simple example, a unit coal train may get 1 HPPT on a given route, a stack train 1.5 HPPT and a hot UPS trailer train 2-3 HPPT.
Beaumont does compare with Rogers or Kicking Horse. Beaumont is not quite as steep as the westward ascents on the CPR, but is equaly steep in both directions with about 3,000 foot rise westward and a fall of about 2,500 feet eastward. Traffic on Beaumont is much closer to being ballanced than on the CP, so heavy trains are being operated in both directions.
You need to study the profiles and understand the traffic before you get into how each carrier powers its trains. There is more going on than meets your eye.
Totally anecdotal but back on February 5, 2018 I got to see a great display of UP railroading on Beaumont Hill on a short trip between Banning and Palm Springs, CA.
Between those two cities, UP had 8 trains running on the double track - 4 in each direction. We hit two - one westbound and then catching and passing one eastbound before it really got rolling downhill - just after pulling out of Highland Springs Avenue and heading east on I-10.
Then, as we came over the crest of Beaumont Hill (actually San Gorgonio Pass), where you can pretty much see all the way to Palm Springs, there were 6 trains visible at one time, all moving, probably running almost on each other's markers. Three coming at us westbound and three more moving eastbound.
It may not have been the same as the multiple sections of the 20th Century Limited back in the 1920s and 1930s, but it was impressive nonethless. Of course, the eastbounds coming down the east slope of Beaumont pass really were moving. The westbounds heading up grade were steady but much slower - clearly needing all that horsepower both on the front end and in several cases the DPUs pushing on the rear.
It was impressive!
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