David1005 Traffic comes and goes, you just never know. But as a condition of the approval of the Union Pacific Southern Pacific merger approval, Union Pacific agreed to double track the Sunset Route. There was no timetable. So I would expect UP to keep chipping away at it.
Was UP's agreement voluntary or was it imposed by a regulator(s) as a condition for approving the merger?
Traffic comes and goes, you just never know. But as a condition of the approval of the Union Pacific Southern Pacific merger approval, Union Pacific agreed to double track the Sunset Route. There was no timetable. So I would expect UP to keep chipping away at it.
tree68JPS1 Moreover, if the U.S., along with other countries, decides as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic that cross border logistics is not such a good idea, and brings a lot of manufacturing home, what happens to the container traffic? I would opine that your new refrigerator may come from Dayton in a container, just as it now comes from the port of Los Angeles...
I would opine that your new refrigerator may come from Dayton in a container, just as it now comes from the port of Los Angeles...
Good point.
JPS1Moreover, if the U.S., along with other countries, decides as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic that cross border logistics is not such a good idea, and brings a lot of manufacturing home, what happens to the container traffic?
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
What you are saying sounds logical, but …
MikeF90 Using the Mecca siding for 'staging' storage is certain possible given its location. However, isn't the idea of PSR to be more efficient in getting goods from point A to B? If a receiving point (yard) can't be expanded I understand the need for some longer sidings, but Mecca is a *long* way from UP's intermodal yards in LA county. Hmmm....
Using the Mecca siding for 'staging' storage is certain possible given its location. However, isn't the idea of PSR to be more efficient in getting goods from point A to B? If a receiving point (yard) can't be expanded I understand the need for some longer sidings, but Mecca is a *long* way from UP's intermodal yards in LA county. Hmmm....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
Hey, K.P., good to hear from you and welcome 'A Penguin'.
Here's the Phoenix line topic link activated: https://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/265084.aspx
As far as uploading pics, my only caution is to have multiple backup copies of your photos and not rely on one of these (possibly transient) hosting providers to be your only copy. Besides the copy on my main desktop computer, I have a 'backup' system (turn on as necessary) and a external hard drive that occasionally visits from my safe deposit box . I will use cloud backup when my cable provider increases their upload speed to something not pathetic.
Note to self - there are many 'DIY' hosting providers where, theoretically, you could build your own digital picture host server cheaply - another retirement project added to the list. Now back to topic ....
EDIT: thinking out loud, is UP using the new sidings at Montclair yard for 'staging' - IIRC that's what they were built for. Another option might be to lengthen Loma Linda or Salvia sidings.
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
About two tracking the Southern California Sunset Route’s Thermal-Mecca section (not 3 miles but closure to 4 miles) vs. the recent extending of the Mecca siding to 3 miles as mentioned by David1005 on April 13, 2020 and elaborated further on by MikeF90 on the same date: It was better to extend the Mecca siding to 3 miles because that siding could be used to PARK a long train for a day or two (which is often done) vs. parking it on the many miles long two-tracks between CP’s. Of course, that is my opinion, but it seems the most logical.
Bruce Ellefritz is cautioned about spending a whole lot of time posting pictures. I learned the hard way that picture hosters can change rules that in essence make all one’s hard work go down the drain in an instant. Also, you are cautioned against innocently getting the ire of those with the money that can ruin your efforts here too. If you do photo posting, as I recall copy and paste the ‘Direct’ link (from where your post-able photos are at) into your post composition at the forum (and, of course, test before posting and make sure it looks right).
I wish everyone well. Retirement is wonderful here in Hemet (CA), but with the COVID-19 situation I hardly get out anymore, and miss the very nearby Metrolink trains on the Perris Valley Line and the new F125’s (which some hate and others love). My ex-boss (I still fill in once and a while) informs me manned helpers (!!!) are now being used on the Sunset Route’s Beaumont Hill! Can you believe that? Two-tracking the west section many years ago and the east part some time ago is now paying off with the free movement of helpers!
MikeF90 If you have info and pics about the status of the UP Phoenix sub, that may deserve a new topic unless there is an old one hiding out there.
If you have info and pics about the status of the UP Phoenix sub, that may deserve a new topic unless there is an old one hiding out there.
Its an old thread. Look forward to an update though.
http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/265084.aspx?page=1
Hi Bruce!
I just tried my previously used method of uploading photos to postimage.cc then linking, and it worked! See testing forum for proof :) and experiment with it there to learn how.
The terms of service for postimage.cc may have changed since my last visit - my previous uploads have disappeared! The site will resize for you which is convenient, or you can use software like XnView or Irfanview with a batch image resize feature. Look out for the image expiration selection.
If you have info and pics about the status of the UP Phoenix sub, that may deserve a new topic unless there is an old one hiding out there. Look forward to your Gila sub pics here as the Google aerials are not up-to-date in that area. TIA, Mike BTW the reported 103F temp here at my SFBA home is the same as Gila Bend right now, very unusual.
My apologies to this forum group for my long silence. On 5/2/2019 I had visited Bosque, Piedra, and Aztec sidings to see the construction there. I did not return to see the projects through, so I am interested in posting some of the photos I had taken then. I next want to revisit those locations this week, and the western area of the Phoenix Sub west of Buckeye to see if there is any appearent activity. How is the best way to get photos into this forum now? I am very active with ATCS for monitoring train activity on the UP Gila Sub and the BNSF Seligman Sub to come up to speed on tracking trains. I'm also trying to monitor radio traffic where I can.
Comments or suggestions?
David1005I have to wonder if a new 3 mile long siding that close to the end of the 2MT was worth the effort.
I had that exact thought last year when this project surfaced. The short bridges aren't a huge deal as they have made dozens of similar ones for the Yuma and Gila sub 2MT expansions. Extending up to grade crossings might have been a lucky coincidence as they need at least 3 miles for those monster trains.
To me it looks like 'PSR math', possibly related to management incentive bonuses or the usual silo budgeting. Previously they would have built that second track to Thermal and eliminated two control points, job done. Maybe we'll see that other 'shoe drop' soon.
The new west end of the three mile long Mecca siding is only three miles from the end of the two main track at Thermal. The east end of the extended Mecca siding required a new bridge. I have to wonder if a new 3 mile long siding that close to the end of the 2MT was worth the effort. Maybe it has to do with where they have 3 miles between grade crossings?
Just noticed the Google Maps aerials confirm that Mecca siding (Yuma sub) has been lengthened to 3.0 miles. OTOH Clyde siding shows no change but that could be just older photos.
Pretty quiet on the railroad front, but I just found a news update with photos on the mud pot mitigation near Niland CA:
https://www.desertusa.com/desert-california/niland-geyser.html
Caltrans has their own page on the project:
https://dot.ca.gov/caltrans-near-me/district-11/current-projects/sr111-nilandgeyser/
.
https://www.up.com/heritage/steam/schedule/index.htm
For what it is worth, Big Boy will be running the Sunset Route over the next few weeks from West Colton to the greater Houston area.
Perhaps with all the various photos being taken of Big Boy as it traverses the route we may be able to glean some clues as to the status of the construction of the extended sidings in CA and AZ.
ccltrainsAre the extended sidings in the single track area being built to a standard so they could become a second main?
Probably. Maybe. UP doesn't tell us.
ccltrainsCan someone provide me with the mile posts for the sidings, both operational and under construction?
For what I have, check out the 'SR points east of Tucson' map in my .sig and do some measuring in Google Maps. Most ATCSMon layouts don't have mileposts. For operational CPs, perhaps someone vacationing in the area could note what's on the equipment bungalows.
MikeF90 PeteMthree Currently, a contractor is installing a siding on the south side of the UP main. It starts just east of the crossing diamond and goes about 2 miles to just short of the Collins Rd. crossing. Good eye @PeteMthree and welcome to the forum! Since there is a grade crossing at Richwood Lane this may go in as a second MT (no parking ). They will probably connect to the BNSF at their CP just west of the southward curve. Back to the Alhambra sub in Etiwanda where I haven't been in a few years, the Mar 2019 Google street view shows a clean ROW and no prep for a second MT . We're UPRR, P.S.R. will solve everything ......... except traffic growth.
PeteMthree Currently, a contractor is installing a siding on the south side of the UP main. It starts just east of the crossing diamond and goes about 2 miles to just short of the Collins Rd. crossing.
Good eye @PeteMthree and welcome to the forum!
Since there is a grade crossing at Richwood Lane this may go in as a second MT (no parking ). They will probably connect to the BNSF at their CP just west of the southward curve.
Back to the Alhambra sub in Etiwanda where I haven't been in a few years, the Mar 2019 Google street view shows a clean ROW and no prep for a second MT . We're UPRR, P.S.R. will solve everything ......... except traffic growth.
PeteMthreeCurrently, a contractor is installing a siding on the south side of the UP main. It starts just east of the crossing diamond and goes about 2 miles to just short of the Collins Rd. crossing.
I recently paid a visit to Rosenberg TX, which is the location of the UP - BNSF crossing, that was historically controlled by Tower 17. The tower still exists, but was moved several years ago to the nearby Rosenberg Railroad Museum (worth a visit). Currently, a contractor is installing a siding on the south side of the UP main. It starts just east of the crossing diamond and goes about 2 miles to just short of the Collins Rd. crossing. Anything further east would involve multiple street crossings and real estate acquisition in the "twin city" of Richmond TX. And, of course, there is that need for a 2nd bridge over the Brazos.
Also, according to one of the docents in the tower, they are planning to remove the diamond and replace it with some switches. I can see how that would be possible, since the BNSF, travelling east, crosses the UP at an angle (NW quadrant to SE quadrant) and then turns immediately left and closely parallels the UP eastward for, maybe, 2 miles before turning south toward Galveston. No further details.
BTW, K.P., was the pipeline work in the Etiwanda-Kaiser area ever completed?
Pete
K. P. Harrier That leaves a glaring gap in Arizona, somewhere around the Theba siding.
Perhaps K.P. has caught that common Internet condition 'tunnel vision'. From other sources I reported above that Piedra siding has been lengthened and reportedly is operational.
I have not yet seen independent confirmation of lengthening of the two Yuma sub sidings mentioned, but I'll post when seen.
[/quote]
K. P. HarrierThat leaves a glaring gap in Arizona, somewhere around the Theba siding.
BTW I posted a while ago some photos from Google Maps on TO Western Board of BNSF's expansion of their ramp in Phoenix. Coupled with the previous expansion done over the past 2 years, this has more than doubled BNSF's capacity in Phoenix. They obviously see a future in this market.
The Tucson ramp gets minimal business, maybe 50 - 60 lifts per day. The old Phoenix ramp was doing around 150 - 200 lifts per day in the late 80s, most of it to/from El Paso east. Relocating out of Phoenix was essentailly de-marketing their presence in AZ for intermodal.
Bruce,
Thanks for your info. I'm not sure why - and, as a shareholder, I intend to complain about it - but it would appear that the UP has all but completely abandoned the Phoenix intermodal market.
They unload 'em in the Tucson area and send 'em over the highway from there. Meanwhile, the BNSF has a dedicated intermodal train from Chicago to Phoenix (Glendale, actually) that they route over the "Peavine".
Surely the UP could compete with that. What don't they? They appear to have just let the BNSF have the Greater Phoenix market.
Best Regards,
Fred M. Cain
K. P. sorry to hear you are taking time off. Thanks for all of your posts: they have been incredibly valuable and provided an insight into the lines east of where I get out to (I make it as far as Niland on my occasional business trips to the Indio area). Looking forward to hearing from you next year.
Fred, regarding the West Phoenix Line: I had always thought that SP could have turned this into a “poor-man’s” 2MT route between Wellton and Picacho back when they were adding the second main track between Tucson and El Paso prior to the UP acquisition. The running between Tolleson and the east end of Phoenix Yard was slow (35-40 mph, 25 mph through the Phoenix depot). But in the late 80s I stayed in Tempe, and once a train got around the curve just north of the Salt River they would take off at a fast clip, save the sharp curve in Mesa. This was back when SP was still ramping at Phoenix Yard: I saw both manifests and solid pigs rounding the broad curve south of Tempe at a very good clip. I don’t think the slow running would have been a major issue. The key, as always, would have been if SP, and later UP, gotten through the terminal in Phoenix without mucking things up with locals or yard moves. Otherwise the time impact would have been maybe 30 minutes. Although a longer route, all of the time saved from meets would have been a lot. Keep a few of the hottest running against traffic on the Gila Line; do everything else directional.
The pluses to this would have been the obvious directional running (ie: EB use Phoenix Line, WB use Gila Line), but also provided direct access for West Coast to Phoenix traffic (forest products, construction products). While LA – Phoenix and Lathrop/Portland – Phoenix domestic traffic would probably have had a difficult time being truck competitive (SP’s COI – Phoenix Sprint trains never amounted to much), there may have been an opportunity for international traffic (a couple of trains per week). The DC market on the west side of Phoenix didn’t really get going until the mid- to late-90s, so perhaps too late. But likely it would have provided enough business for 2 trains per week each way.
(edit: the DC market in Phoenix now is moslty local Phoenix DCs, fed directly from the ports of Oakland, LA and Long Beach, as well as - to a greater extent - from the regional and national DCs in the LA Basin. The volume of trucks moving from California to Phoenix is very large. A lot of this is LTL, meaning all going from one cross-dock in one area to a cross-dock in the other. Every major LTL carrier has a cross-dock within a couple of miles of the now-UP main in the Tolleson area. This would have been a great location to relocate the SP Phoenix Yard at one time: lots of land at extremely cheap prices. No more....)
All speculation that will likely never happen….
Kp and all interested:
I suggest the Santa Fe yard at Clovis, NM has be doing the 'block swaping' activity for some time and without a significant 'makover'. Clovis is similar to Santa Teresa with the conversion of the SE Texas line from Temple through Lubbock meeting the southern Transcon.
Eastward trains arrive in Clovis with loads destined for SE Texas and also loads destined for Denver, St. Louis, Memphis and further to the SE. The presorted loads are separated and made up into trains that will reach those destinations.
Westward Transcon trains pick up loads arriving from those various origins and place them in blocks that will be further broken up at Barstow for California destinations.
K.P.,
Thanks for your most recent post!
I’d like to bring the West Phoenix Line back into this discussion. A guy on another e-group on the Milwaukee Road made the comment that the UP has been keeping the West Phoenix Line hanging because they intend to eventually utilize it in a future two-tracking plan where the Maricopa/Gila Line would presumably run in one direction and the Phoenix Line in the other direction.
Well, not wanting to argue with him, I did not tell him that I have had some correspondence with the UP over the years and they told me clearly that they did not want to do that since the Phoenix Line runs through downtown Phoenix (and, presumably Tempe and Mesa as well).
But later I got to thinking, could it be, could it just be, that maybe this guy knew what he was talking about? Is that possible? Have you ever heard any kind of speculation about that?
The Siding Extensions Are …
Four Sunset Route siding extensions are in the works or have been completed: Two in southeastern California, and two in southwestern Arizona.
California: Mecca and Clyde
Arizona: Aztec and Bosque.
That leaves a glaring gap in Arizona, somewhere around the Theba siding. I have to wonder if ultimately there will be five siding extensions …
About those new long sidings
The Precision Scheduled Railroading with a limited number of long sidings will put UNEXPECTED (!!!) demands on dispatchers. Can you imagine a DS suddenly realizing two three mile long trains can’t pass each other at a non-extended siding? Won’t that be fun! Will it be a double saw-by, or backing one train 12 miles? What if both three-mile long trains are in a dip and one has to back uphill in curvy territory? In that case, the DS probably would ‘ask’ the engineer to walk back the three miles and hope the DPU is facing backwards!
West Colton Yard, Colton, CA
In looking at some possibilities in conjunction with both Precision Scheduled Railroading and what Mr. Vena might do in revamping the UP System, K.P. finds West Colton Yard (on the western Sunset Route) kind of an impossible yard, with very little that can be done. Will it stay? Who knows? IF (“if”) it is an impossible yard how could 15,000 feet eastbound trains be made up there? Extend eastward over the Colton Flyover?
Replies
Fred M Cane (5-16)
Doesn’t misery love company? (Hehehe.)
diningcar (5-23):
About a block swap facility by Santa Teresa, NM, you sort of opened up a can of worms in my mind with your post.
For years I’ve mentally envisioned a block swap facility as merely a small number of long tracks where arriving cars could be combined and that combination would then speed west, and the reverse for eastward travel from the west end. But, you’ve introduced a new angle, ‘combining common loads.’ Now, that suggests a whoppingly large facility with a bunch of cars just sitting around. In some ways, why not just build a classification yard at Santa Teresa?
Maybe someone at TRAINS can write a feature article on what exactly a block swap facility is and its technicalities, like a whoppingly big (and expensive) facility or one nice and small (in other words, inexpensive).
Word, though, is that Santa Teresa is having $20 million spent on it. Only $20 million! That is hardly anything unlike the on hold Brazos Classification Yard near Hearne, TX, which is somewhere near $500 million, as I recall. A small, simple, easy to comprehend facility sounds more like the “block swap” facility that I originally had envisioned!
BNSF6400 (6-26):
In Arizona the east end of the Aztec siding and eastward got the new color light signals and a new CP box early on. The west end had the old CP box. As time progressed the section between Aztec and Mohawk got converted too, and I thought a new CP SP811 AZTEC was put in service also. (You, BNSF6400, said it wasn’t.) Then Vena came along, and the west end of the Aztec siding got moved westward, and CP SP809 AZTEC came into existence, freeing up the old new box of CP SP811 AZTEC (if it had been installed), that was transported to the Colton Signal Dept. in Colton, CA. In Southern California there are some lines with modern CP boxes but not the present standard ones. Somehow I’m inclined to think that displaced CP SP811 AZTEC box from Arizona now in Southern California will be used to replace one of those newer but not standard CP boxes. At least one of those newer but old non-standard CP boxes has already been traded out for a new standard one. Perhaps that displaced CP SP811 AZTEC box will find a new home near Cajon Pass … near my old office, where I fill in more than I like as a retired person.
I have heard nothing about lengthening sidings on the Los Angeles & Salt Lake line. Do you, BNSF6400, know anything about that counterpart line for Los Angeles-Chicago traffic? Hey, wouldn’t it be something if a Sunset Route CP box in Arizona found a home up in Utah? In California, the two new Mecca CP boxes will soon be extras. I wonder where they will eventually end up.
kgbw49 (6-28):
There are only two siding extensions in Southern California, one completed, Clyde, and one yet to finish, Mecca. They will mean three or four CP boxes can be used elsewhere.
To All:
Plan on K.P. taking a hiatus from posting … I’m sure Kalmbach would just love that! Hopefully, I will still be alive and kicking in seven to nine months, and able to make a review of the California-Arizona Sunset Route scene first hand and report the status to the forum and the followers of this thread.
Take care all,
K.P.
Things to Come …
… but First things First
With the advent of the Vena era at UP, a number of sidings on the remaining Sunset Route single-track between Los Angeles and El Paso are being upgraded to long, long sidings. Some may have theorized that two-tracking is over. It could very well be, AT LEAST FOR NOW! But, K.P. now sees a very, very telltale sign in the current activity!
In the Lower Desert of Southern California, east some distance from Indio, is the Mecca siding. In this Vena era that siding is now being lengthened, both to the west and to the east. A photo of the east end is shown just below looking westbound:
Above, did you notice it? What?
A closer look and an explanation:
The background non-switch siding ties currently being laid are CONCRETE, while the foreground ties of the off to the side switch are WOOD! While BNSF does such as a common practice, UP uses concrete ties for mainline track as well as within the switches, UNLESS the switch is temporary. It is very unlikely the Vena era has changed UP’s long standing physical plant practices, so we can expect further two-tracking in the years ahead, possibly three to ten years from now. The present focus on siding extensions seem to be merely to get long, long trains (a phenomenon of Precision Scheduled Railroading) around each other at meets.
Ridgecrest (CA) Earthquakes: July 4 and 5, 2019
After the above two photos were shot (July 5), and in putting the camera away, I found myself having difficulty standing. “Man, the heat must be getting to me,” I thought. Calling my wife, she immediate answered, and said, “Did you feel the 7.1 magnitude earthquake?” Needless to say, I felt much better about driving home in the heat!
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