eolesenHope KP's ears are burning -- his name came up in conversation elsewhere.
Actually I really hope that he is OK - IIRC he moved to Hemet where they had a large devastating fire in the last few months.
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
KP will always be The Swami of The Sunset Route!
Looks like it's been a while since this thread has been updated. Has there been any new activity between CP Colorado and Maricopa?Hope KP's ears are burning -- his name came up in conversation elsewhere.
kgbw49What would be your best guestimate of the length of remaining single track between the end of double track southeast of Thermal, CA to the end of double track at what looks to be near Estrella Road northeast of Gila Bend?
A quick total of single track between CP Thermal and CP Estrella is about 128 miles. Adding any more would depend on what bottlenecks are perceived. As you know they lengthened several sidings to ~15k feet. Further east at the VR Tucson webcam I've seen very few 'shorties' - everything seems to have midtrain DPUs.
I haven't tracked work further east closely, but I've read that UP has or is lengthening sidings between Sierra Blanca - Houston, Sierra Blanca - Ft. Worth and now El Paso - Topeka.
Question for MikeF90 as our resident Sage of the Sunset Route (and thank you for all the excellent maps you have been keeping of all these various western important routes):
What would be your best guestimate of the length of remaining single track between the end of double track southeast of Thermal, CA to the end of double track at what looks to be near Estrella Road northeast of Gila Bend?
Thanks for your best "guesstimate" if you have one!
As I understand it, there is NO two-tracking anywhere on the Sunset Route. HOWEVER, west of Sierra Ave. in Fontana (CA), on the western outreaches of West Colton Yard, between CP AL533 SIERRA and CP AL531 SOUTH FONTANA, a second track currently is being laid and prepared for use! Personally, I would not call that ‘two tracking.’ Maybe ‘one-and-a-half’ tracking would be more realistic! Why?
With Precision Scheduled Railroading (PSR) assembled trains are now so long they often exceed the currently designated Departure Yard tracks. One solution to that problem has been to use Main Track 2 between CP AL534 CEDAR and CP AL533 SIERRA. But even that is not long enough! So, by two-tracking west to CP AL531 SOUTH FONTANA as described above, Main Track 2 can have a FOUR MILE long train assembled on it! With that, the one-and-a-half tracking was coined because Main Track 2 OFTEN substitutes as a yard track! Make sense?
It should be realized that from Colton to Pomona UP has another route (the LA&SL via Riverside), an alternate Sunset Route if you will, that in effect makes for two-tracks between said cites, sometimes three-tracks. So, in my humble opinion, we all should not get excited that two-tracking has resumed, but what is being done should be considered ‘one-and-a-half tracking’ for practicality’s sake!
Per a post on another railfan site UP contractors are grading between CP Sierra and South Fontana siding on the Alhambra sub. Presumably a new second track will smooth access to both the WC hump yard and the new, tiny IM facility at the west edge.
So far no sight of grading west of Fontana siding to Ontario to complete the 2MT.
SD60MAC9500Not sure if track work would be connected to IEIT. However UP will be running longer trains up from San Pedro Bay to SLC. They gained some additional stack traffic out of LBCT heading for the Utah Inland Port.
That could induce more logjams if there are a lot of those stack trains, since UP likes to run them very long. The LA sub has long single track sections in addition to the 11 mile 'gap' on the Alhambra sub.
The remaining 'runt' sidings on both subs don't look very useful. Maybe we'll see some winter ROW work .....
MikeF90 Per a posting on another railfan site, UP appears to be grading the ROW between CP Sierra and South Fontana siding on the Alhambra sub. It is not known yet if this is prep for a second MT or siding extension; the former might suggest a new midpoint CP built near Etiwanda Ave. I speculate that the work is connected to the new Inland Empire Intermodal Terminal (IEIT). We'll see how far this goes! Some pictures would be nice ....
Per a posting on another railfan site, UP appears to be grading the ROW between CP Sierra and South Fontana siding on the Alhambra sub. It is not known yet if this is prep for a second MT or siding extension; the former might suggest a new midpoint CP built near Etiwanda Ave.
I speculate that the work is connected to the new Inland Empire Intermodal Terminal (IEIT). We'll see how far this goes! Some pictures would be nice ....
UP's IEIT is a former LOUP logistics transload. It measures over 12 acres in size. The initial lift capacity will only be about 35,000-40,000/annum. Once traffic picks up they will begin to convert the Colton Hump into a much larger facility. I suspect that classification will move to North Platte. Then again could go north to Roseville if there's room. UP still has considerable carload freight out of SoCal.
Not sure if track work would be connected to IEIT. However UP will be running longer trains up from San Pedro Bay to SLC. They gained some additional stack traffic out of LBCT heading for the Utah Inland Port.
Fred M Cain Personally, I like the way that the Devil’s Lake Line in North Dakota was saved. The lake water was rising and threatening to destroy the line. BN didn’t want to spend the $ to raise the roadbed over the lake and decided to abandon it. There were some folks that wanted very badly to keep Amtrak on that line. So the approach used was to get BN, the State of North Dakota and the feds all together to fix the problem. That approach was largely successful. Once done, BNSF has continued to use the line somewhat – I don’t know how much. Mark Meyer could probably tell us. If the West Phoenix Line were to be revived, a similar approach could be used where the State, the feds and U.P. could all contribute. All three entities would stand to benefit. What’s gonna cost like heck is that I believe the line has 110-lb rail. That was fine when it was built in the 1920s, it was O.K. during the Second World War but today that’s just a bit light for 286,000-lb equipment. That could well be why the U.P. has said they would need about $2 million per mile to fully rebuild the line. Just a guess.
Up in the Midwest, I know that WIsconsin & Southern upgraded much of their lines to 286K capacity with 115-lb continuous welded rail along with reinforcing bridges. I am pretty sure that Pan Am Railways did the same with their mainline to Maine.
However, those are both lighter-traffic-density lines. i assume if traffic is heavy enough, 136-lb or more is likely preferred.
Fred M CainPersonally, I like the way that the Devil’s Lake Line in North Dakota was saved. ... Once done, BNSF has continued to use the line somewhat – I don’t know how much.
My recollection was that about the time the line was finally reconstructed, the Bakken oil boom hit, and BNSF was glad they had the extra capacity.
Let me tell you a tale of woe. About 15 years ago I was approached about being appointed th the Amtrak board. This is something I would like and I think I could get Amtrak off of top dead center. Our senator took my CV and was pushing it through. Unfortunately at that time George the younger Bush was president. He did not like Amtrak and my application died. With our present president being a big advocate of Amreak there is potential for a couple original thinkers being appointed to the board. Unfortunately this will not be me as I turn 81 in a couple months and out of the running.
[quote user="MikeF90"]
ccltrains There has been discussion about the status of the Phoenix west line. Based on the proposed federal stimulus bill Amtrak has listed several passenger additions they would like to make assuming the bill passes. One proposal is running passenger trains from Tucson to Phoenix then west over the idle track back to the Sunset Route.
Inept Amtrak management is throwing out these proposals just to see what sticks. Any talk about reactivating the line west from Phoenix is just .... talk. When I call my cousin in Phoenix about visiting via Amtrak laughter ensues because .... Maricopa - the perfect anti-visitor town. Not even a local rental car location.
Capital investment required would be huge and, even as a beneficiary, UP still shows no interest in increasing service to the area (hint - too close to SoCal). The proposed Red Rock yard looked like a good idea but that project is on very long term hold.
I'd like to hear if the county has plans to improve local mass transit to serve growing work centers like the Intel Chandler campus, don't see any light rail anywhere nearby. I question what a 'commuter' rail line would serve and connect to.
blue streak 1 If Amtrak ever pays for Phoenix west there should be some real benefits. Track should be rebuilt for class 5 o or 6 to make maximum authorized speeds for Superliners. Signal system upgraded and PTC installed. Up required to keep it at Class track if UP runs freight over the route. As well no freight cars that fail WILD detector tests. The extra speed might allow Sunset to not loose any scheduled time ?
If Amtrak ever pays for Phoenix west there should be some real benefits. Track should be rebuilt for class 5 o or 6 to make maximum authorized speeds for Superliners. Signal system upgraded and PTC installed. Up required to keep it at Class track if UP runs freight over the route. As well no freight cars that fail WILD detector tests.
The extra speed might allow Sunset to not loose any scheduled time ?
There is no telling what Amtrak might do with $80 billion with a "b".
Heck, they might even get Chicago-St.Louis Lincoln Service up to 110 mph after about 3 decades of working on it.
tree68 Something about roundabouts helps people reach previously unknown heights of weirdness and strange behavior, especially those that are two lanes wide. If you sit and concentrate on thinking up the weirdest possible things people could do in a roundabout, then watch traffic in one for an hour, you will be astounded to learn that people can far surpass the weirdest possible behavior you can dream up. K. P. Harrier Since K.P. last visited the area, construction people built a Barton Road roundy-round at the west side of I-215 Freeway RAMPS! An advantage of living in the northeast and occasional visits to New England. Experience with traffic circles/roundabouts. As they say, though - watch out for the other guy. Those aren't the place to encounter someone who thinks they always have the right-of-way....
Something about roundabouts helps people reach previously unknown heights of weirdness and strange behavior, especially those that are two lanes wide. If you sit and concentrate on thinking up the weirdest possible things people could do in a roundabout, then watch traffic in one for an hour, you will be astounded to learn that people can far surpass the weirdest possible behavior you can dream up.
K. P. Harrier Since K.P. last visited the area, construction people built a Barton Road roundy-round at the west side of I-215 Freeway RAMPS!
An advantage of living in the northeast and occasional visits to New England. Experience with traffic circles/roundabouts. As they say, though - watch out for the other guy.
Those aren't the place to encounter someone who thinks they always have the right-of-way....
ccltrainsThere has been discussion about the status of the Phoenix west line. Based on the proposed federal stimulus bill Amtrak has listed several passenger additions they would like to make assuming the bill passes. One proposal is running passenger trains from Tucson to Phoenix then west over the idle track back to the Sunset Route.
ccltrains There has been discussion about the status of the Phoenix west line. Based on the proposed federal stimulus bill Amtrak has listed several passenger additions they would like to make assuming the bill passes. One proposal is running passenger trains from Tucson to Phoenix then west over the idle track back to the Sunset Route. Let's keep our fingers crossed. As a Phoenix suburb resident I want to see passenger service here.
There has been discussion about the status of the Phoenix west line. Based on the proposed federal stimulus bill Amtrak has listed several passenger additions they would like to make assuming the bill passes. One proposal is running passenger trains from Tucson to Phoenix then west over the idle track back to the Sunset Route. Let's keep our fingers crossed. As a Phoenix suburb resident I want to see passenger service here.
NTSB report on Union Pacific worker died after being struck by railroad maintenance gear near Vail on 1/31/2021
https://www.progressiverailroading.com/federal_legislation_regulation/news/NTSB-investigating-fatal-accident-involving-UP-track-worker--62900
Report Link:
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/RRD21LR007-preliminary-report.aspx
The Swami of the Sunset Route is back!
Great to hear from you, K.P.!
And glad to know you are OK in this pandemic world!
An awesome report as always!
Stay safe!
There currently is no known two-tracking on the Sunset Route.
HOWEVER, at West Colton Yard in the Colton-Fontana, CA area the Precision Scheduled Railroading now in effect is taking its toll on the previous two-tracking from over a decade ago!
Trains are being made up by doubling long cuts of cars out of the east end of the yard (by Pepper Ave.) and over the new Colton Flyover, regulating the flyover (and Cedar Ave. to Mt. Vernon Ave.) to single-track status during such switching moves.
Non-Sunset Route trains to head north have dangerously been switched over the bridging over the I-10 Freeway. In a maverick move, to avoid derailing cuts of freight cars over the I-10 Freeway, some long northbound trains have been made up on Main 2 between Sierra Ave. and Cedar Ave., regulating that portion of the Sunset Route (across from the Receiving Yard) to single-track.
Of course, the option is always present of routing thru trains over the southern Los Angeles & Salt Lake via Riverside, about 9 miles more in length than Colton-Pomona direct. That portion via Riverside was mostly two-tracked almost 30 years ago before Union Pacific and Southern Pacific merged.
As for future two-tracking on the Sunset Route, K.P. does NOT anticipate any further two-tracking whatsoever UNTIL there is a major change in labor pay agreements. It should be remembered that there is a management type higher-up under contract with a background from Canada, where train personnel get paid very differently than those in the United States.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
tree68Experience with traffic circles/roundabouts. As they say, though - watch out for the other guy.
I've encountered a few out here like this one in Long Beach - no problems. In recent years one was retrofitted near me as a 'traffic calmer' and it does work; railfans would note the location is on the former Sacramento Northern ROW. Now back to topic.
The only Sunset Route opportunity I get these days is 'remote control'. The recent ATCSMon Yuma sub chart shows the Clyde siding as been lengthened, very puzzling to me as it is within a short single track section; Google aerial photos have not been updated. Also, a few sidings on the Valentine sub east of Sierra Blanca have been extended; by comparison UP went crazy on the ex-T&P to Fort Worth.
tree68As they say, though - watch out for the other guy. Those aren't the place to encounter someone who thinks they always have the right-of-way....
Amen. Stress points.Be alert, be very alert. And its good to hear from you again K.P.
Thank you, K.P.! Great to hear from you again! Stay healthy and keep the faith. One of these days something will pop about the Sunset Route related to how the long sidings either are or are not handling the traffic. Time will tell. Fair seas and following winds, K.P.!
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I do not think anything is happening on the
… Sunset Route two-tracking-wise, BUT …
… as the deadline for the conversion of target signals to the color light type is just a couple weeks away, the few remaining target signals on the BNSF as it pertains to this thread, namely, at 7th Street in San Bernardino (Sunset Route LA&SL feeder line from Salt Lake City, UT) and both Highgrove and Riverside on the BNSF portion of the alternate Sunset Route through Riverside have been or MIGHT BE in the process of being converted.
At BNSF CP 7th Street in San Bernardino, the EAST target signals were traded out to color lights AND the modern cantilever structure was changed out too! The WEST color lights AND modern cantilever structure was also traded out! Those new color light heads have full shade hoods as is common in Southern California and western Arizona on the BNSF. (More in a minute …)
A SUPER WORD OF CAUTION! IF you will be visiting the old 1936 Barton Road bridge over the BNSF by Grand Terrace, VISIT NOW ONLY FROM the La Cadena Drive side (west) and NOT from the I-215 Freeway side (east)! Since K.P. last visited the area, construction people built a Barton Road roundy-round at the west side of I-215 Freeway RAMPS! SUPER DANGEROUS! K.P.’s teenage grandson in the Midwest had his driver’s license only a week and totaled his car at one of those roundy-rounds! It was not his fault, still what an experience for a new driver! BE CAREFUL AT THOSE ROUNDY-ROUNDS AND AVOID THEM AT ALL COSTS!
At BNSF CP HIGHGROVE (on the alternate Sunset Route on the BNSF portion), the poor layout of the track has NOT been altered and remains the same. HOWEVER, the WEST side four-track signal bridge was traded out for a shiny new one with color light heads on it! The EAST side target signals and masts were traded out for new color light heads and new masts. THOSE NEW SIGNAL HEADS ARE LIKE THE ONES IN EASTERN ARIZONA AND NEW MEXICO, WITHOUT FULL SHADE HOODS!
The remaining followers of this thread may remember how poorly the track arrange is at that BNSF CP HIGHGROVE, with three-tracks funneling into two-tracks in such a way that, under certain conditions that is more common that one would think, makes for a bottle-neck single-track section! K.P. suspects BNSF is playing hardball with both UP and locals about the 1936 roadway bridge over the BNSF at Barton Road.
The BNSF three-track signal bridge midway between Highgrove and Riverside has been changed out to a cantilever structure with color lights on it.
The BNSF WEST RIVERSIDE and related CP’s in downtowner Riverside have NOT had the target signals replaced. HOWEVER, there is a bunch of UP concrete ties sitting on the ground just west of the BNSF CP, suggesting the track-work may be modified in the very near future.
The very nearby LA&SL shoofly bridge over the 91 Freeway is still in service while the new bridge (old, original alignment) is still not in service, likely because of possibly ongoing litigation concerning the fatal original bridge’s collapse during welding in the revamping of the 91 Freeway several years ago.
OK, I am done. Probably will not be back here at the forum to post anything for a couple of years …
Take care all,
K.P.
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