"Russian" Decapods in Canada?

[Isambard]

I have been told that in 1917/1918, a shipment to Russia of 2-10-0 "Russian" Decapods was stopped at the port of St. John, New Brunswick, when the Czarist government defaulted on payments for large numbers of these locomotives from Baldwin and Alco.
Is this story true and if so what happened to these locomotives?
Some 200 plus "Russians" found there way into service in the U.S. instead of being shipped to Russia. Did any "Russians" operate in Canada?

[Anonymous]

Yes, this story is true - I've also heard that at least one shipment of decapods was sunk by the Bolsheviks. I couldn't tell you whether any operated in Canada, but there is one working example in the United States; Frisco #1630, at the Illinois Railway Museum.

Except for discrepancy in track & loading guage, Russian engines are by and large American in their engineering practice. Basically, all it took for Baldwin & Alco to put the 2-10-0's on the US market was to change their guage!

Check out the 1630 sometime - take away the Frisco lettering, and then realize it's a Russian engine. You wouldn't know the difference! Pretty cool.

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by captainclack

Yes, this story is true - I've also heard that at least one shipment of decapods was sunk by the Bolsheviks. I couldn't tell you whether any operated in Canada, but there is one working example in the United States; Frisco #1630, at the Illinois Railway Museum.

Except for discrepancy in track & loading guage, Russian engines are by and large American in their engineering practice. Basically, all it took for Baldwin & Alco to put the 2-10-0's on the US market was to change their guage!

Check out the 1630 sometime - take away the Frisco lettering, and then realize it's a Russian engine. You wouldn't know the difference! Pretty cool.

If you're confirming that Russian Decs were shipped out of, or got stopped at St. John, New Brunswick, where did you find this information?

For a really Russian looking Dec see page 61 of Linn Wescott's Cyclopedia Vol 1 Steam Locomotives by Kalmbach, which shows both a Dec ready for delivery to Russia and Erie 2462 class J2 with a European style smoke box.

From what I've been able to determine no Russian Decs found their way into service in Canada. However Baldwin introduced a light standard 2-10-0 in the early 1920's that was rather similar to the Russian Decs. Canadian Locomotive Company built 10 virtual duplicates of the Baldwin 2-10-0's between 1926 and 1930 for the Edmonton, Dunvegan&British Columbia and its successor Northern Alberta Railways (see page 351 of George H. Drury's Guide to North American Steam Locomotives by Kalmbach)
[:)]

[M636C]

Isambard,

One of the very first batches of "Russian Decapods" was built by the Canadian Locomotive Company in Kingston, and these were basically standard Canadian locomotives built to the same specification as the later "Russian looking" units. All of these were delivered, and they were reported in "The Locomotive" magazine for 1916. These were known as class "Yek" (appeared as Ek on the cab side) the k standing for "Kanada". The first units built were Yef (f for Philadelphia) and Yes (s for Schenectady) and these weren't "Russian looking" either.

Some of these may have been completed with tyres set at standard gauge for trial in Canada before shipment, unless Kingston laid some broad gauge track for them.

A lot of these locomotives were shipped via China, as the "White" forces still held Siberia and the East, the "Reds" being on top in the West.

I think all the later units were built in the USA, and ended up with the USRA if not shipped to Russia. Using a canadian port may have just been to avoid wartime congestion in the USA ports.

Peter

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

Isambard,

One of the very first batches of "Russian Decapods" was built by the Canadian Locomotive Company in Kingston, and these were basically standard Canadian locomotives built to the same specification as the later "Russian looking" units. All of these were delivered, and they were reported in "The Locomotive" magazine for 1916. These were known as class "Yek" (appeared as Ek on the cab side) the k standing for "Kanada". The first units built were Yef (f for Philadelphia) and Yes (s for Schenectady) and these weren't "Russian looking" either.

Some of these may have been completed with tyres set at standard gauge for trial in Canada before shipment, unless Kingston laid some broad gauge track for them.

A lot of these locomotives were shipped via China, as the "White" forces still held Siberia and the East, the "Reds" being on top in the West.

I think all the later units were built in the USA, and ended up with the USRA if not shipped to Russia. Using a canadian port may have just been to avoid wartime congestion in the USA ports.

Peter

Thanks for that fascinating bit of history. I'm interested in reading more. Where on earth does one find "The Locomotive" magazine for 1916?
Presumably any CLC locos shipped via China would have been shipped out of Vancouver? Wouldn't Vladivostok have also been a port of entry, being held by the Whites until late in the war?
The truly Russian-looking Decapod shown on page 61 of Linn Wescott's "Steam Locomotives" is numbered E H 541, the H (or a Russian K?) being superscripted with a small diamond data plate (?) below it.

[M636C]

"The Locomotive" was an Engli***rade journal and was widely read in railway mechanical design offices for the first half of last century. There would have been sets (they offered a binding service, or possibly issued a bound copy of the year's issues to libraries. The CN and CP libraries would have had copies, and probably donated their collection to major public libraries in Toronto and Montreal. I'd start there!

The Canadian locomotives were part of the first batch of 400 locomotives and were numbered 351 to 400. These locomotives were indeed all shipped via Vladivostok. The locomotives shipped via China were initially for use on the "Chinese Eastern Railway" which acted as part of the "Trans Siberian Railway" but ran through China with headquarters at Harbin. This extended as far south as Changchun, about half way to Harbin from Dalien, and was 5' gauge. So it was a relatively short haul over the standard gauge to Changchun where the locomotives were assembled. It may have been spreading the assembly work that caused this alternative delivery route.

By the way, I realise I repeated an error in my posting about the the classes.

If "F" = "Philadelphia"
and "S" = "Schenecatady"
then "K" = "Kingston"

I bet the person who originated "K = Kanada" didn't know that CLC was at Kingston!

Checking out the builder's photo of the "Ek", the boiler sat lower, as did the running boards and the cab had a single side window set to the rear. They still had the "Russian" outside handrails, but had a standard US/Canadian smokebox front with a small smokebox door dogged shut.

I think the Russian "H" is the English "L" and all the later WW I locos were class "Ye l".

Peter

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

"The Locomotive" was an Engli***rade journal and was widely read in railway mechanical design offices for the first half of last century. There would have been sets (they offered a binding service, or possibly issued a bound copy of the year's issues to libraries. The CN and CP libraries would have had copies, and probably donated their collection to major public libraries in Toronto and Montreal. I'd start there!

The Canadian locomotives were part of the first batch of 400 locomotives and were numbered 351 to 400. These locomotives were indeed all shipped via Vladivostok. The locomotives shipped via China were initially for use on the "Chinese Eastern Railway" which acted as part of the "Trans Siberian Railway" but ran through China with headquarters at Harbin. This extended as far south as Changchun, about half way to Harbin from Dalien, and was 5' gauge. So it was a relatively short haul over the standard gauge to Changchun where the locomotives were assembled. It may have been spreading the assembly work that caused this alternative delivery route.

By the way, I realise I repeated an error in my posting about the the classes.

If "F" = "Philadelphia"
and "S" = "Schenecatady"
then "K" = "Kingston"

I bet the person who originated "K = Kanada" didn't know that CLC was at Kingston!

Checking out the builder's photo of the "Ek", the boiler sat lower, as did the running boards and the cab had a single side window set to the rear. They still had the "Russian" outside handrails, but had a standard US/Canadian smokebox front with a small smokebox door dogged shut.

I think the Russian "H" is the English "L" and all the later WW I locos were class "Ye l".

Peter

Thank you Peter. I must try to find copies of "The Locomotive".
In the meantime three "Russians" haul trains on the Grizzly Northern, making Canadian history.
[:)]

[Anonymous]

Railroad model craftsman did an article about the reading rr 2-10-0 (DEC2002) according to the article 800 engines were delivered with 200 left in the us after 1918. 6 are left in the US with the Illinois railway museum being the only operational one.The eastern part of Russia was held by the US, Britain, Canada and Japan with the hope that the czech legion fighting it's way across Russia would help turn the tide against the reds. Canada also had troops fighting along side the US ,Britain and other forces around murmansk(?). My books about the allied intervention are in storage so i'm going from memory. Hope this helps

[M636C]

One thing I hadn't understood until nkalbrr made his post was a statement in an English source that 168 of the Decapods were in Japan when the default in payment occurred. Presumably they were being "staged" there (5' gauge locomotives wouldn't much use in Japan which was all 3'6" at that time), and it was the Japanese Army and Navy were shipping the locomotives up the Japanese owned South Manchurian Railway to Changchun for use in their campaign. If the Japanese were involved in the campaign, they may have preferred to use Japanese controlled shipping and ports for this and other military equipment. These locomotives must have been returned to the USA to form part of the 200 units distributed by the USRA. These were all US built locomotives.

I live not far from the Australian War Memorial (a large museum) which a few years ago had a display of photographs and relics from Australian troops that had been stationed in Murmansk. You really don't hear much about that period now.

Peter

[tatans]

These locos were called R-3 by the C.P.R. and used in main line service in the mountains of B.C. they were replaced by T class "Selkirks" they went to Golden, Revelstoke and Notch Hill, some went to yard duties on the prairies, including Winnipeg, all remained in service except one until the 1950's. Their engine numbers were 5756-5790. Angus shops built 35 additional locos from 1917 to 1919

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans

These locos were called R-3 by the C.P.R. and used in main line service in the mountains of B.C. they were replaced by T class "Selkirks" they went to Golden, Revelstoke and Notch Hill, some went to yard duties on the prairies, including Winnipeg, all remained in service except one until the 1950's. Their engine numbers were 5756-5790. Angus shops built 35 additional locos from 1917 to 1919

I'm not sure now whether we're talking about "Russian" Decapods when referring to CLC built engines shipped to Russia. The "Russian" Decapods as built by Baldwin and Alco typically weighed in at about 210,000 lbs (engine only, in working order), had 24 by 28 in. cylinders, 160 lbs boiler pressure, 52 in. dia. drivers, and had a T.E. of about 42,180 lbs.

The CP's R-3's per Lavallée weighed 401,000 to 458,000 lbs (engine and tender, working order), had 24 by 32 in. cylinders, 200 lbs boiler pressure and 58 in. dia. drivers. Certainly seem heavier than the "Russians", although I don't know how much to deduct for the R-3's tender, fuel and water.

So were the CLC built Decapods shipped to Russia similar to the CPR's R-3's, or otherwise?

Referring to the earlier dialogue I've found that the truly Russian engine, No. E 541, was built by Baldwin in 1917 (George H. Drury, Kalmbach)
[?]

[Anonymous]

m636c, do you recall what Australian unit were involved. History is a passion of mine and the allied interention is a topic that is generally not talked about. I have a few books about Russia during that time period and those that ruled the rail lines ruled. The Czech legion rode the rails from the far west to the far east and they fought the whole way, The allies hoped to keep the legion involved in russia because of the amount of troops involved and if they were repatriated they would have reinforced the western front, also they tried to keep the Czar's troops fighting for the same reason. The White Russian's in the far east treated the population just as bad as the Czar and the Red's did. The U.S., British and Commomwealth forces kept order but from what I have read the Japanese forces turned a blind eye, they may have been thinking of the future?. Also have you ever visited the memorial at Kanchaburi Thailand?

[Anonymous]

Yes it is my understanding that the CPR and the CNR here in Canada had the Russion 2-10-0 .AS a small boy with my Father who was as engineer with the CNR I Had rode in several Steam engines and do remember the Decapad.
I can not confirm the St Johns story as the place is in New Foundland , but there were some engines held in the Port of Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada. This all happened prior to the First World War, as it was the Russian Revoluton that stopped the sale

[tatans]

Isambard: I think you are right @''Russian" ------- From Omer Lavallee "Collectors Item #25 he writes: Decapod Type 2-10-0. class R-3 #'s5756-90, C.P.Angus shops,1917-1919, cylinders:24''x32'', dr.wheels 58'', pressure 200 lbs., weight eng.& tender(working order) 401,000-458,000lbs, it looks like we are talking about 2 different groups of locomotives.