hon30critter ATLANTIC CENTRAL So yes, I am looking to add a few more sidings/industries, but the desire is to limit their impact on the mainline. Hi Sheldon, Thanks for explaining your operations. I now have a much better understanding of what the primary operations will consist of. I hadn't recognised the potential for switching large cuts of cars from train to train, especially where passenger trains are concerned. Quite frankly, I don't recall studying such a large layout before so I apologise for my lack of understanding. My criticisms were naive. I should have known better! Your operations will be impressive and they will be of a size that most modelers can only dream of. Cheers!! Dave
ATLANTIC CENTRAL So yes, I am looking to add a few more sidings/industries, but the desire is to limit their impact on the mainline.
Hi Sheldon,
Thanks for explaining your operations. I now have a much better understanding of what the primary operations will consist of. I hadn't recognised the potential for switching large cuts of cars from train to train, especially where passenger trains are concerned. Quite frankly, I don't recall studying such a large layout before so I apologise for my lack of understanding. My criticisms were naive. I should have known better! Your operations will be impressive and they will be of a size that most modelers can only dream of.
Cheers!!
Dave
Dave,
Not naive at all, it was a great question, and one I wrestled with while designing the layout.
I resisted the temptation to try and include too much and worked hard to get a correct balance.
And the number of industries is limited as a result.
Two other things I should share here. My previous layout, built on almost the exact same theme, attempted to depict a much larger distance between east and west, including a waterfront industry scene and a coal mine.
As you can see, at this moment the new layout does not include either. I am considering the coal mine.
There is separate idea to built a totally separate waterfront industrial switching layout, not sure if that is going to work out or not.
One other operational note. You may have noticed the cutoffs to the staging in the area behind the yard on the east end and at the interlocking on the west end of the yard.
These have two purposes. They turn the mainline into four dedicated display loops, and during operating sessions they act as the interchange connections with the B&O and C&O. So both freight and passenger trains will come and go from there as well, adding to the yard activity and switching.
And I will add a few more industries, I just want to do it very carefully.
Thanks for the interest and your insightful comments.
Sheldon
Hey Sheldon -
I have a question regarding staging/storage and how you will implement the idea into your typical operations . . .
I see four distinct staging yards, from about 20 to 25 feet long with about 6 to 10 tracks each (plus the large open freight yard and several smaller industry yards). Three are double ended and one is stub ended. Do you have names or designations for these yards? It would be easier for me to relate the written narrative and discussion to the spatial track plan if we could call out the 'Western Maryland' staging or the 'Commonwealth Motors' staging (and see where they are) instead of vaguely referring to ' . . . the yard that runs along the bottom right wall and up the side', or something. Just a suggestion.
Also, am I right to assume that the stub end yard that runs up and along the rightmost wall will serve as a fiddle yard in addition to staging and/or storage?
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
ROBERT PETRICK Hey Sheldon - I have a question regarding staging/storage and how you will implement the idea into your typical operations . . . I see four distinct staging yards, from about 20 to 25 feet long with about 6 to 10 tracks each (plus the large open freight yard and several smaller industry yards). Three are double ended and one is stub ended. Do you have names or designations for these yards? It would be easier for me to relate the written narrative and discussion to the spatial track plan if we could call out the 'Western Maryland' staging or the 'Commonwealth Motors' staging (and see where they are) instead of vaguely referring to ' . . . the yard that runs along the bottom right wall and up the side', or something. Just a suggestion. Also, am I right to assume that the stub end yard that runs up and along the rightmost wall will serve as a fiddle yard in addition to staging and/or storage? Robert
Yes, lots of things NEED names and agreed the staging yards are at the top of this list.
I am working on names now. They were a low priority when it was just me......
The stub end yard does present the opportunity to be a fiddle yard. In fact that area of the basement will be the workshop.
I only see "fiddle yard work" as something that happens "before an operating session" to stage trains based on train orders and timetables. But again yes, it will be partly out in the open near my workbench.
The three double ended six track yards will generally only hold four trains, two in each direction so as not to block the continuous mainline route.
Trains in the stub end yard will be staged facing out at the beginning of a session, after trains pull out, terminating trains can pull in, and will be turned after the session by backing them around the wye.
More later, I will be in touch. Thanks again for everything.
Do you normally run coal drags on your layout? You've mention that typical trains are 30 or 35 cars, but I don't recall any specific description or makeup.
Yes, there will be east bound loads and west bound empties, on both the WM and the ACR.
I am now considering a plan to put the coal mine on the WESTERN MARYLAND line, and I have all the places named. I will be in touch soon.
The plan is very impressive. At first look, it reminds me a lot of Tony Koester's Allegheny Midland, which was an impressive layout.
There's not much help that I can offer.
- Douglas
Doughless The plan is very impressive. At first look, it reminds me a lot of Tony Koester's Allegheny Midland, which was an impressive layout. There's not much help that I can offer.
Douglas, thank you for those very kind words.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Yes, there will be east bound loads and west bound empties, on both the WM and the ACR. I am now considering a plan to put the coal mine on the WESTERN MARYLAND line, and I have all the places named. I will be in touch soon. Sheldon
Okay, good.
The reason I ask is because I know you are working on the idea of adding a coal mine and/or a coal-fired power plant.
Do you plan to run the coal trains into the mine proper? or onto the power plant site? entirely or partially? If so, what sort of loading/unloading facilities do you have in mind? Can you find enough space to accommodate either or both?
ROBERT PETRICK ATLANTIC CENTRAL Yes, there will be east bound loads and west bound empties, on both the WM and the ACR. I am now considering a plan to put the coal mine on the WESTERN MARYLAND line, and I have all the places named. I will be in touch soon. Sheldon Okay, good. The reason I ask is because I know you are working on the idea of adding a coal mine and/or a coal-fired power plant. Do you plan to run the coal trains into the mine proper? or onto the power plant site? entirely or partially? If so, what sort of loading/unloading facilities do you have in mind? Can you find enough space to accommodate either or both? Robert
I am thinking that most of the coal traffic will still be run thru bridge traffic to/from locations off stage. But cars could be switched from the mine, and brought to the main yard via interchange, for movement to off stage destinations.
My latest idea for the mine would be small, and would only generate 15-20 loads per "move". The mine would have three tipple tracks each about 3' long and a passing siding maybe 12' long.
From the early days, well into 1950's, and beyond, Western Maryland and West Virginia were full of small mines. Often vertical shaft mines sometimes tapping mineral rights under other properties. These can be modeled in in just a few square feet with small processing plant/loading tipples.
Often the whole "mining town" was built right there, walking distance from the plant/tipple.
I think the power plant idea is off the table. As you said before, even small ones are huge.
More later,
With some help from several people who contacted me directly, I have settled on a plan for the coal mine. revised drawings to follow.
Also I have named all the places.......
And added control panel locations......
Now I am working on refining the list of staged trains, and reviewing available structures on hand in an effort to target what additional industries I might add.
Here are the changes adding the coal mine, and naming all the places.
A note about the place names and the layout theme.
The layout does not try in any way to fit into the actual geography of the Mid Atlantic. Its only goal is to be "representitive" of the region.
The place names all have regional and personal significance, and a few relate roughly (very roughly) to the geography of the layout.
But it is all just fiction, there is NO attempt to fit the ATLANTIC CENTRAL into the geography or relationships of actual places or actual trackage of the B&O, C&O or WM.
Your thoughts are welcomed.
This post is a test of my photo hosting:
Your Photobucket works for the moment.
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe place names all have regional and personal significance
No argument with that, but given that halfway you and Randy Rinker are some Amish towns with very interesting names, you could have gone in that direction.
Better yet, imagine if, in the transition era, those towns were named by Amish who were 'woke' in 2020 style. I like the idea so much I am going to do it. There will be a Genderville and Woketown. My grandmother was born in Frugality PA, which no longer exists, we can rename that Intersectionality.
I have more ideas on the subject, but I don't wish to go on extended moderation again, so I leave it up to the audience to come up with their own woke towns.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Henry,
The photobucket test was to see if the picture would still post after first posting it from my general "bucket", then moving it to an album.
Seems it does work, so I can clean up my Photobucket page into better organized albums without any pictures getting "lost".
As for the names, I'll stick to something a little more wife and grandchild friendly.....
Sheldon, Thanks for posting your track plan. I really like the design of the staging in the Cumberland Peninsula section. You are getting a lot bang for your buck with the curved staging and having the 3 tracks loop under and back to “H”. It is an excellent use of the space you allocated. I also like the the use of spiral tunnels to get additional mainline length.
Mark
Alton Junction
tnd.rail Sheldon, Thanks for posting your track plan. I really like the design of the staging in the Cumberland Peninsula section. You are getting a lot bang for your buck with the curved staging and having the 3 tracks loop under and back to “H”. It is an excellent use of the space you allocated. I also like the the use of spiral tunnels to get additional mainline length. Mark
Thank you, glad you found it interesting. One of the very first bigger layouts I was exposed to used sidings located on a reverse loop for some of its staging.
People think staging is some new thing, that layout, and my first layout, which also had hidden staging sidings, were built in the 60's.
So, I have made some very small revisions to the track plan, not sure if it is worth posting a different version.
More importantly I have been analyzing the track plan for operational flaws and conformance with my original set of "givens and druthers".
How close did I get.
I was easily able to keep all mainline curves at or above 36" radius, with most of them being more in the 40" range and above.
Two staging tracks did end up with 32" and 34" radius, being used for freight trains this will not be an issue in any way.
I was able to get the desired number of staged trains - just barely, and I had to make some of the under layout staging more complex than originally desired.
I have made a list of desired trains/motive power assignments and selected possible staging tracks for their operations.
I am still working on adding a few additional industries, but have been able to add a complete separate industrial area also removed from the mainline like the two original primary industrial areas.
Still working to add just a few more industries without too many needing to be serviced from the mainline. The current industry count is 14.
With a few minor adjustments I was able to increase the capacity of the piggyback yard to about 50 cars.
Still have lots of wide open scenery to figure out, construction of the first section will begin as soon as my bathroom home improvement project wraps up. I completed most of the plumbing replacement for the whole house last weekend.
Still working on the ceiling/lighting plan.
More later.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Still working on the ceiling/lighting plan.
Rich
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL Still working on the ceiling/lighting plan. Anxious to learn what you choose to do with the ceiling/lighting plan. Rich
Anxious to learn what you choose to do with the ceiling/lighting plan.
I'm leaning toward the low clearance ceiling tile grid and flat panel 2x2 or 2x4 LED's. But to do that I need to do a ceiling tile layout and decide where to put the fixtures in advance. Which is ok, but I still have some concerns about light distribution. I may have to do some tests first.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI have made some very small revisions to the track plan
ATLANTIC CENTRALMore importantly I have been analyzing the track plan for operational flaws and conformance with my original set of "givens and druthers".
Following the development of your track plan has been very interesting, particularly because I've been going through the same process with my own layout. I'm pretty happy with the basic track plan but I'm still finding ways to improve it.
The lighting discussion has been interesting too. I'm in a little different situation as far as lighting goes because my layout will be free standing, but I still plan on having dedicated lighting over the layout. What form that will take has yet to be decided.
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
OK, time for an update.
Actual layout construction is getting close. Two things needed to happen before the layout could get underway, both are nearly done.
One, we had one last rental property to rehab and sell. We had some "delays" in getting the tenant out..... It should go on the market next week after two months of part time rehab work in between other customer projects.
Two, we are remodeling our "family" bathroom, which has been waiting 5 weeks for a custom made cultured marble shower pan, surround and vanity top. That was picked up last week, and installation has begun. Now that the rental property is complete and about to be on the market, the bathroom here can be moved to the top of the list and should only a take a few weeks to complete.
The wife has been busy selling or giving away unwanted items previously stored in part of the layout space. More than 60% of the basement is now empty waiting for benchwork.
Lumber prices expected to drop soon.....
On another note, a recent layout article in "another" publication clearly illustrates my original discussion at the beginning of this thread - size vs complexity.
This magnificent layout, when compared to my planned layout, clearly shows the difference between size and complexity.
http://dpcw.borail.net/
David Park has created a layout that is actually very close to my theme and concept, set in the same geographic region, modeling two of the same railroads I model. David does not have the freelance component, but models the the B&O and WM in area I am very familiar with, not all that far from my home.
And while my layout does not try to depict actual locations and David does, both layouts are effectively set in the same "location".
So here is the thing, his layout space is actually slightly smaller than mine. But by taking a completely different approach to scenery and trackage, his layout is dramaticly more complex, and contains dramaticly more track and turnouts than my new layout will involve.
This is not a bad thing, David has built a great layout. He even shares my interest in being able to run "display" trains. But it does require different compromises and different/more resources
How did he make his layout so much more complex in less space?
David also clearly has a team of friends who have helped him. While I could recruit several fellow modelers to help me, and may do so at some point. I am more comfortable with the layout being mostly my own work.
Found the article and his web site very interesting, maybe even got a few ideas, but happy to be building the simple version in the bigger space........
ATLANTIC CENTRALLumber prices expected to drop soon.....
Boy-oh-boy do I hope you are right.
Thanks for the update.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Lumber prices expected to drop soon..... Boy-oh-boy do I hope you are right. Thanks for the update. -Kevin
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Lumber prices expected to drop soon.....
ATLANTIC CENTRAL OK, time for an update. Actual layout construction is getting close. Two things needed to happen before the layout could get underway, both are nearly done. One, we had one last rental property to rehab and sell. We had some "delays" in getting the tenant out..... It should go on the market next week after two months of part time rehab work in between other customer projects. Two, we are remodeling our "family" bathroom, which has been waiting 5 weeks for a custom made cultured marble shower pan, surround and vanity top. That was picked up last week, and installation has begun. Now that the rental property is complete and about to be on the market, the bathroom here can be moved to the top of the list and should only a take a few weeks to complete. The wife has been busy selling or giving away unwanted items previously stored in part of the layout space. More than 60% of the basement is now empty waiting for benchwork. Lumber prices expected to drop soon..... On another note, a recent layout article in "another" publication clearly illustrates my original discussion at the beginning of this thread - size vs complexity. This magnificent layout, when compared to my planned layout, clearly shows the difference between size and complexity. http://dpcw.borail.net/ David Park has created a layout that is actually very close to my theme and concept, set in the same geographic region, modeling two of the same railroads I model. David does not have the freelance component, but models the the B&O and WM in area I am very familiar with, not all that far from my home. And while my layout does not try to depict actual locations and David does, both layouts are effectively set in the same "location". So here is the thing, his layout space is actually slightly smaller than mine. But by taking a completely different approach to scenery and trackage, his layout is dramaticly more complex, and contains dramaticly more track and turnouts than my new layout will involve. This is not a bad thing, David has built a great layout. He even shares my interest in being able to run "display" trains. But it does require different compromises and different/more resources How did he make his layout so much more complex in less space? smaller aisles shallow around the walls benchwork with "backdrop" scenery even more hidden trackage and staging than me dramaticly less modeling of things not "near the tracks" a willingness to have smaller yards/shorter trains? David also clearly has a team of friends who have helped him. While I could recruit several fellow modelers to help me, and may do so at some point. I am more comfortable with the layout being mostly my own work. Found the article and his web site very interesting, maybe even got a few ideas, but happy to be building the simple version in the bigger space........ Sheldon
Just wanted to add an enthusiastic vote that it I am really looking forward to seeing posts on the progress of your layout as well. Sounds like you are just about ready to start.
Hope you have the time to share your snags as well as your successes. I find posts of how people who overcame unforeseen obstacles really illuminating and helpful.
Good luck!
UPDATE:
As actual layout construction inches closer to a start date, I have settled on a ceiling and lighting solution.
Since I can easily relocate nearly everything that is below the floor joists in the layout area, I am going to use a grid system that attaches directly to the joists, like CeilingConnex or CeilingLink. Both seem to be less expensive, better and easier to use than CeilingMAX.
https://ceilingconnex.com/collections/ceiling-grid
https://www.ceilinglink.com/index.html
For lighting I have settled on 6" round recessed LED ultra thin down lights like these:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08QSHW9WP/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A61CMNCK0JTGW&psc=1
Calculations suggest about 28 lights over aisles and about 62 lights over the layout. Some tests will be in order to determine the best spacing for effective coverage.
These lights are color adjustable and dimmable and are not much thicker than the ceiling tiles. Each light does have a power supply pack that will tuck up between the joists.
We have been using these lights extensively in peoples homes for the last several years and they are very nice and easy to install. And now the prices have come down considerably.
The low power consumption will mean easy wiring with just one or two circuits. And the simple install will allow them to be carefully postioned as needed.
We used similar lights for our dining room/kitchen and we are very happy with them!
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Calculations suggest about 28 lights over aisles and about 62 lights over the layout. Some tests will be in order to determine the best spacing for effective coverage. These lights are color adjustable and dimmable and are not much thicker than the ceiling tiles. Each light does have a power supply pack that will tuck up between the joists.
Before I built my new layout, I took down 12-48" fluorescent fixtures which lit my old layout. I then installed 53 traditional recessed "can" light fixtures across my 34' x 60' basement ceiling. 28 of those cans are installed above my L-shaped layout space covering a 25' x 42' portion of the basement. That number of cans is sufficient to light the layout without any shadows.
My lighting consists of BR30-shaped LED floodlights. The brightness is 650 lumens, 65 watts, with energy consumption of 7 watts. The lighting appearance is 3000K soft white.
Just thought I would mention those specs for comparative purposes.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL Calculations suggest about 28 lights over aisles and about 62 lights over the layout. Some tests will be in order to determine the best spacing for effective coverage. These lights are color adjustable and dimmable and are not much thicker than the ceiling tiles. Each light does have a power supply pack that will tuck up between the joists. Wow, 90 light fixtures! Before I built my new layout, I took down 12-48" fluorescent fixtures which lit my old layout. I then installed 53 traditional recessed "can" light fixtures across my 34' x 60' basement ceiling. 28 cans are installed above my L-shaped layout space covering a 25' x 42' portion of the basement. That number of cans is sufficient to light the layout without any shadows. My lighting consists of BR30-shaped LED floodlights. The brightness is 650 lumens, 65 watts, with energy consumption of 7 watts. The lighting appearance is 3000K soft white. Just thought I would mention those specs for comparative purposes. Rich
Wow, 90 light fixtures!
Before I built my new layout, I took down 12-48" fluorescent fixtures which lit my old layout. I then installed 53 traditional recessed "can" light fixtures across my 34' x 60' basement ceiling. 28 cans are installed above my L-shaped layout space covering a 25' x 42' portion of the basement. That number of cans is sufficient to light the layout without any shadows.
Yes, some testing may reveal that I don't need that many, but I based the preliminary fixture layout on what we do for kitchen counters.
Rather than light the whole room with an evenly spaced grid, I plan to have the aisles on a separate circuit/switch and be able to control them separate from the the lights over the layout.
More later, got to run,