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Re-motoring a Rivarossi 2-8-8-2 Mallet

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Re-motoring a Rivarossi 2-8-8-2 Mallet
Posted by DuceNovaII on Monday, November 16, 2009 9:50 AM

I'm just getting back into model railroading after about fourty years.  My (now deceased) father and I built a 12' X 16' layout which he tore down before he died (I was busy working and he didn't know how to run the layout so it got in his way). 

I've since built a 9' X 12' layout (which I have since found out is not the ideal setup but that's another issue). 

I tested all of the locomotives which were all in disrepair but ran EXCEPT the Rivarossi 2-8-8-2 Mallet.  The motor brushes were worn out and the motor smells awful.  I'm assuming that the motor is toast.  I found a proceedure at Northwest Short Line that describes remotoring it using their #18337-9 motor and u-joints #488-6.  I have a lathe/milling machine so modifiying the frame is not an issue.

Has anyone done this?  Did you use the NWSL parts or did you find another source that worked better?

Any and all information will be greatly appreciated.

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Posted by reklein on Monday, November 16, 2009 10:11 AM

I did a remotor and universal job a few years back and now can't remember what all i did. I also ground down the flanges. On that one, I simply powered up the loco while spinning a dremel grinder against the drivers. Took my time and it seemed to work OK. The loco worked fairly well after all that but the guy i di the job for had trouble with it. I think though that his trouble was caused by too much handling of the loco.These photos may help. BILL

In Lewiston Idaho,where they filmed Breakheart pass.
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Posted by DuceNovaII on Monday, November 16, 2009 10:40 AM

Thanks for the reply.

 I finally figured out where the "search" funciton was here (right hand side of the screen --  I'm used to having it at the top of the screen on a tool bar).  Found a ton if information (along with the picture you posted of your feet!  LOL!--I do the same thing!).

More information on the loco:  It is a PRR #2197.  Walthers has the part number for the NWSL motor but they're sold out although they list a hobby shop in PA that supposidly has it in stock.

Beyond all of this, I also saw in the search here that someone put a motor like this:  http://www.wholesaletrains.com/Detail.asp?ID=200415453 in there.  This motor is in my GP40's that I have three of and they run smooth, quiet and have plenty of HP.  We have to visit my wife's store in Big Flats and Lantz Hobby is right on the way.  That way I can look at the motor before buying it.

The plan is to build a Erie Lackawanna layout with diesel power.  WHY I'm rebuilding the Mallet is beyond me other than it has sentimental value.  Dad loved seeing the steam engines run.  He was an avid baseball player and hit the longest home run in history.  He hit a ball into a gondola on the O&W and that ball is still traveling to this day!  LOL!

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Posted by Darth Santa Fe on Monday, November 16, 2009 10:58 AM

It appears that NWSL may not be making the 18x33 flat can motor anymore, along with the rest of the Sagamis. My Tiger Valley ALCO RSD-12 diesel is powered by one of them, and I've found it to be no better than a decent motor. It runs smooth enough, but it's kind of noisy, and I had to adjust the brush tension for better running.

It's a little more expensive, but I'd recommend the 18x33mm flat can motor offered by A Line. It's the same size as the NWSL motor (except the shafts, which are 0.4mm smaller), but I've found it to be a much better one. It works at the same speed, draws half the electrical current, runs a bit smoother, and is quieter at all speeds. You'd just have to get 4826 universals from NWSL for the smaller shaft size (Rivarossi's shafts are about 2.1mm, so it may be an easier conversion than with parts for 2.4mm shafts). NWSL's universals are the best around, so I'd stick with them for things like that.

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Posted by Darth Santa Fe on Monday, November 16, 2009 11:05 AM

DuceNovaII
Beyond all of this, I also saw in the search here that someone put a motor like this:  http://www.wholesaletrains.com/Detail.asp?ID=200415453 in there.  This motor is in my GP40's that I have three of and they run smooth, quiet and have plenty of HP.  We have to visit my wife's store in Big Flats and Lantz Hobby is right on the way.  That way I can look at the motor before buying it.

These are the motors currently used in all Athearn Genesis diesels, and they are excellent runners. They would also be a good choice for repowering, but they're also 3-4mm longer than the NWSL and A Line motors. They may still fit, but it's something to keep in mind (they also have a 2mm shaft like the A Line motor). You'd have to pull the flywheels off, because they would make it too long (NWSL makes a tool for pulling wheels, flywheels, etc.).

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Posted by C&O Fan on Monday, November 16, 2009 11:21 AM

If you do a search on Ebay for Rivarossi Parts you should find a dealer named "backshops"

he has some very good replacement motors that are low draw and perfect for DCC conversions

I bought one from him when repowering my F-19 Pacific

Love It

TerryinTexas

See my Web Site Here

http://conewriversubdivision.yolasite.com/

 

 

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Posted by DuceNovaII on Monday, November 16, 2009 12:40 PM

Thanks to all for the information.  This is again confirming that the internet is for something other than porn!  LOL!

I'm going to pull the cab off one of my GP's to see how big the motor is so that I don't back myself into a corner with buying one only to find out it won't fit.

Once this one is done, I have two other steamers that I'd like to upgrade.  One is a 2-8-2 OLD Bachman and the other is a 0-6-0 that I built from a kit.  The 0-6-0 is a puzzlement too as I can't remember what brand it is.  I thought it was a Bowser but they say it isn't one of theirs.

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Posted by SteamFreak on Monday, November 16, 2009 1:23 PM

 I remotored my Y6b with a CD tray motor that I pulled out of an old disk drive, and in combination with a pair of NWSL reduction kits for the upper gearboxes, it has more than enough torque. This is a much less radical (not to mention cheaper) option if you don't want to mill a well for a can motor out of the boiler weight.

  Mine is an earlier version with a ball bearing motor, but it was off-balance enough to be noisy with the reduction kits. Rivarossi motors aren't the greatest, but they're very durable; come to think of it, I've never seen one burn out. It may need nothing more than brushes and a good commutator cleaning. Very often motors that smell like they have burned windings are suffering from nothing more than a buildup of brush dust and oil.

The old Bachmann Consolidation is more of a challenge, since they have that annoying pancake drive. They can perform nicely if well maintained, but the noise will drive you batty. Bowser used to make a replacement frame & drive for the Bachmann 4-8-4's, but I don't think anything was ever offered for the 2-8-0.

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Posted by reklein on Monday, November 16, 2009 2:29 PM

whatever you do don't take the Rivarossi motor apart,There's a dozen or so ballbearings in there that will fall out and noway to put them back. There must be a trick to it as they put em in there when they build the things.

  Also I read a letter somewhere on line by the current owner of NWSL, that Sagami motors are no longer made or at least not made the same way..

In Lewiston Idaho,where they filmed Breakheart pass.
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Posted by SteamFreak on Monday, November 16, 2009 2:50 PM

reklein
whatever you do don't take the Rivarossi motor apart,There's a dozen or so ballbearings in there that will fall out and noway to put them back. There must be a trick to it as they put em in there when they build the things.

That's only true for the older square ball bearing motors, of course, which are instantly recognizable by the hex adjusting screw between the brushes. Also, being open frame, they will lose a majority of their magnetism if the armature is removed from the field. On an Italian Rivarossi forum they actually recommend using lard in the bearing cups to keep the balls in position and away from the magnets during reassembly. Chef Dinner

It's safe to take their round motors apart.

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Posted by Darth Santa Fe on Monday, November 16, 2009 3:02 PM

Reassembling a Rivarossi ball-bearing motor is tedious work, but it can be done. For the upper bearings (6 BBs), I put just a little Vaseline in the BB race, take a tiny, slightly magnetic flat-blade screwdriver, and position each BB in the race with something non-magnetic. The lower bearing (11 or 13 BBs, depending on the motor) is a little easier, using a similar method. And if you lose magnetism, take out the old magnet, cut a little of the plastic frame out, and put a stack of 5 1/2"x1/4"x1/8" neodymium magnets in place of the old one. (scroll down a few posts in this topic to see what I'm talking about).

The Rivarossi can motors are easier to work on, and with a little adjustment they're fantastic runners. Practically new motors can be found on eBay fairly often.

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Posted by Darth Santa Fe on Monday, November 16, 2009 3:15 PM

DuceNovaII
Thanks to all for the information.  This is again confirming that the internet is for something other than porn!  LOL!

I really don't think it was meant for that in the first place.Dead

Once this one is done, I have two other steamers that I'd like to upgrade.  One is a 2-8-2 OLD Bachman and the other is a 0-6-0 that I built from a kit.  The 0-6-0 is a puzzlement too as I can't remember what brand it is.  I thought it was a Bowser but they say it isn't one of theirs.

Bowser used to make a full repower kit for the 2-8-0 (the 2-8-2 is the 2-8-0 with a rear truck). Looking at the old diagram, it may also be possible to fit a small CD drive motor in there. I could be wrong, though.

What does the 0-6-0 look like? There have been quite a few 0-6-0 kits available from manufacturers like MDC and Mantua/Tyco. Bowser's only 0-6-0 was released only a few years ago.

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Posted by reklein on Monday, November 16, 2009 5:28 PM

Genius,pure Genius, The lard in the bearing trick. Only thing is I was unaware they were there at all when I took the motor apart and at least half of them disappeared into that place where all things are invisible.Sad

As for losing the magnetism???? Another magic trick by the manufacturers. Who thinks this stuff up?Dunce

Speaking of invisible things, I dropped a journal spring from a disconnect truck on the floor, smooth concrete, I couldn't see it at all but when I got down on my hands and knees I just happened to put my finger tips right on it. Sometims I have good luck. I try to keep the floor under my bench clean for that very reason.  BILL

In Lewiston Idaho,where they filmed Breakheart pass.
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Posted by DuceNovaII on Monday, November 16, 2009 6:26 PM

 I'll take some pics of all of the steam locos and post them as soon as I get time.

 I don't know about any of you, but building ANYTHING from a kit is the best part of any hobby (RC airplanes, trains, cars, etc.).  

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Posted by SteamFreak on Monday, November 16, 2009 10:33 PM

reklein
Only thing is I was unaware they were there at all when I took the motor apart and at least half of them disappeared into that place where all things are invisible.Sad

No kidding... don't sneeze. Shock Labor must have been cheap in Italy back then.

reklein
As for losing the magnetism???? Another magic trick by the manufacturers. Who thinks this stuff up?Dunce

 The alnico magnets in open frame motors needed a magnetism boost from a big coil once the motor was assembled, but it's lost when the field (magnet, pole pieces, & armature) is disassembled. Ceramic and the new neodymium magnets don't need the extra charge.

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Posted by DuceNovaII on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 1:49 PM

As promised pictures of the 0-6-0 and the 2-8-2.  They are dusty from sitting for YEARS.  The 2-8-2 had to have the cab replaced as dad dropped it somehow and broke it hence no numbes on the cab.

 

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Posted by climaxpwr on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 3:45 PM

We lost Sagami from the Kobi, Japan earthquake.  The factory was destroyed and the family decided to retire instead of rebuilding.  It was a shame, they made a very good can motor.  Mashima and Cannon area also excellent can motors.  My guess is if you clean and put new brushes, 1 carbon and 1 mesh, in that motor, it will run fine.  If its the round metal motor,  they can be taken appart, not the easiest thing to do, but it can be done. The guy on ebay offers a tape recorder drive motor that fits inside the gutted motor case of that round motor.  Also an excellent option to get one running again.   Cheers  Mike

LHS mechanic and geniune train and antique garden tractor nut case! 

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Posted by Darth Santa Fe on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 4:33 PM

DuceNovaII

As promised pictures of the 0-6-0 and the 2-8-2.  They are dusty from sitting for YEARS.  The 2-8-2 had to have the cab replaced as dad dropped it somehow and broke it hence no numbes on the cab.

Ok, those are both Mantua/Tyco steam engines. They can be upgraded very easily using the remotor kits from www.yardbirdtrains.com (D8120 for most, or D8124 if your 2-8-2 has the gearbox design). Or you can put a 1/2" neodymium cube magnet in place of the weaker one in the old motor, like I did in the topic I posted a link to earlier.

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Posted by DuceNovaII on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:29 PM

Gosh, I thought the 2-8-2 was a Bachman but I could be wrong.

 As for the 0-6-0, it was a fun kit and runs well although a little noisy.  It will pull about a dozen + cars on flat track which I find amazing for such a small locomotive.

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Posted by Darth Santa Fe on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 12:07 AM

Here's Bachmann's original 2-8-2: http://www.ho-scaletrains.net/bachmannhoscalelocomotives/id56.html .  It's simply their 2-8-0 with a rear truck slapped on. The only other one they've made in HO is their Spectrum Chinese Mikado in Susquehanna, which looks like this: http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/160-83212 .

Here are a few pages showing the Mantua/Tyco 2-8-2:
http://tycotrain.tripod.com/redboxerasteamengines/id7.html
http://tycotrain.tripod.com/steamengines/id4.html
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r132/tonycook1966/Mantua%2078/78_06_Mantua.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r132/tonycook1966/Mantua%202001/12_2001_Mantua.jpg

It sure had a long life! Mantua made them until they went out of business in 2001. Model Power bought what was left of them, and has continued the Mantua name since.

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Posted by DuceNovaII on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 8:05 AM

You are CORRECT that the 2-8-2 is a Toyco product.  I don't know what got it into my head that it was a Bachman product.  Time does that to us (especially me!  LOL!).

Thank you for all of the links to both of these locomotives.

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Posted by DuceNovaII on Tuesday, December 22, 2009 10:30 PM

It seems like all I've been doing the last few weeks is working on modifying the frame to make the motor fit.  I even went as so far as to make a whole new frame from a piece of billet aluminum that I had laying around.  Bottom line, the motor that I bought from Micro Mark won't fit no matter what position I put it in.  It's just too darned big!

Don't ask me why I didn't buy the #40321 motor from Walthers.  MAJOR brain infarction.  Money is short now that it is Christmas time so it's going to be a couple of months before I can order that one. 

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Posted by Allegheny2-6-6-6 on Tuesday, December 22, 2009 11:02 PM

 I've had it done in the past and for me I just didn't think it was worth the trouble and expense I went trough as the newer Proto H2K stuff is far superior but thats not the subject here if it's worth it to you thats all that matters. I would contact Alliance Locomotives there is a link below. They make the Helix Humper motor which i have repowered many of mine and friends loco's with. I highly recommend them as their pulling monsters. I They don't seem to have a direct application for the old Rivarossi's but I'm sure their tech guys can help you out with that part of it. However the motor is only half your battle the old Rivarossi's had narrow flange drivers which made them horrible runners compared to today's standards. I have both the new Hornby Big Boys and the old AHM/Rivarossi versions and there is no comparison. So along with re-motoring your going to have to consider changing the drivers. Some may say it's not necessary but I have found the old ones do not like to cross switch frogs no where near as well as the new one's I also provided a link to a site with a pretty good how to article on the converting to a newer motor. It may prove helpful.

 Good luck and enjoy....

 

 

 

http://www.alliancelink.com/alp/

 

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/model/remotoringbigboy.shtml
Just my 2 cents worth, I spent the rest on trains. If you choked a Smurf what color would he turn?
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Posted by SteamFreak on Wednesday, December 23, 2009 12:09 AM

 Duce,

 I don't know if you have enough left of the boiler weight to mount a motor in the cab, but this is a shot of the disk drive motor in mine. I replaced couplings with NWSL universals and 2mm shaft, because the old slotted couplings were horrible. Rivarossi replaced them with hex shafts when they switched to the round motor.

 I have a spare boiler weight if you need it.

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Posted by DuceNovaII on Wednesday, December 23, 2009 8:52 AM

Thanks to all for the information,

I could put a motor back in the cab as I haven't cut anything off back there.  I didn't cut the motor mount off just in case the center drive motor quest didn't work out.  I did, however, fill the gearbox holes with epoxy so IF I were to mount the motor in the original location, I'd have to drill and tap the holes out again!  Does anyone know what the thread size is for the original screws?  If not, I'll just put the 4-40 screws (that I have HUNDREDS of from my RC aircraft builds) in place of them.

The ONLY reason I decided to re-motor this locomotive is because it was my father's (I finally nailed it down to the Christmas of 1978--my first at IBM).  He loved to see it chug along with all of the mechanisms flailing away.

I don't remember it jumping the track through turnouts but he operated it more than I did.  TRUST ME, if it were a PITA to operate, he would have said something!

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Posted by SteamFreak on Wednesday, December 23, 2009 11:45 AM

 I don't know the thread size, but I know all their screws are metric. No reason you can't tap it for the 4-40 screws instead.

And you're right, I've never had any problem with the old pizza cutter Rivarossis tracking poorly; in fact it always amazed me how reliably they ran. As long as you don't try running it on anything smaller than 100 code rail, you shouldn't have a problem.

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Posted by 64bugman on Wednesday, November 12, 2014 7:30 PM

hello sir,

 

This is Michael, I have an old Riverossi big boy that my father purchased in the early 70"s. It makes the noise while running, but will run on any radius from 18 to 22. I noticed you have a new style can motor, I was wanting to know were you got the motor so I can upgrade my dads and my engine. I am also wanting to go DCC with this engine. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

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