Looking for info about RR signals

[mikesmowers]

  Good morning all, I am wanting to start installing some working signals on my HO layout, but know very little about how to go about doing it. My head is so full of questions, like Where do they go, what are the trying to tell the engineer, how to hook them up, and what kind to get? I am modeling in the 1976 range but could  fudge a little one way or another. I have 3 reverse loops so to speak, and several turnouts,  Any help or where to find some info would be great.    Thanks.       Mike

[NeO6874]

I don't know what signal you would specifically need (every RR had/has their own style), but they generally would go to the right of the forward motion of the loco.

Signals are, in essence, traffic lights - if you get the searchlight style (with only one lens) there will be a three-color LED in it (prototype used colored discs attached to a motor between the lens and the light).  So you'll get red, yellow and green (on the mainline).

Red - (most of the time) Full Stop - although  in certain places it will mean Full Stop, then proceed at reduced speed

Yellow - Reduce speed

Green - Full speed ahead

if a signal is "attached" to a switch , be it a dwarf signal in a yard or a main line signal, will (to my understanging) show either red, yellow*, or green to the heel-end, and either green or yellow on the points-end

Points-end:
Green - Points set straight (full speed)

Yellow - points set diverging (reduce speed)

Heel-end:
Red - points set against you (full stop)

Yellow*  - (diverging route) points set for you (reduce speed)

Green - (straight route) points set for you (full speed)

* I may be wrong there

There are also signals that have 2 or 3 searchlights in a single stand... these can get into all kinds of different configurations to mean pretty much the same thing as the single light style, though they can protect maybe 4 or 5 blocks, rather than the 2-3 that a single light can.

This site may help a little more

[John Busby]

Hi mikesmowers

At the most basic.

Red stop Green proceed Yellow proceed with caution the next signal is red.

Which is good enough for most railway models bearing in mind that it is impossible to fully signal a layout not enough space.

I would suggest a simple arrival and departure signal set up for each station with point indicators.

Signals are positioned on the left hand side of the running track and at junctions well  clear of the fouling point

Directing signals at junctions are read top to bottom left to right the top one being the high speed route the the lower one the low speed route.

Naturally if the same height then the speed is the same.

As signaling principals and practices seem to change between railways and nations I would suggest contacting your favorite railway's Signals and Communications office, once they realise you are a model railway person they will probably be quite helpfull

The title escapes me but Klambach do a book on signals for model railways

regards John

[scole100]

"Railroad Signaling" by Brian Solomon is a great reference. It will answer most of those questions currently filling up your head.

[Dave-the-Train]

Where you are in the country and what road or roads you have would be useful to help us give you answers.

I have found the NORAC generic rules a good place to start to broadly understand US operating practice... signals don't mean a thing without fitting into a system of how they are used.

I've had a lot of help from people on this forum, especially Nick (Further name with held so that he doesn't get swamped!   ... at least, not until after we've finished working out my signals ).

If you have more than one road a useful piece of information might be that the usual practice is for the last road to lay track with diamonds or connections affecing the signalling gets landed with provising the signalling, maintaining it and providing the staff to run it... although they may be working the rules of an earlier company through the location so as not to break up the working of the earlier company on site.

This means that at a diamond where on road crosses another you will not (normally) get the signal types or working rules of both roads.  You will usually get the signals of the later road and their staff... but you may get an earlier more dominant road prevailing and passing the bill to the later road.

One thing that will help you is to decide which is your main track... or which are your main tracks... this will apply especially where you have those loops.  It's up to you which road you designate as main ... or you may make one loop main east bound and another main west bound.  These would not normally be seperated by a road but of three parallel loops would be 1&2 or 2&3... NOT 1&3.

A single main could be any of the three roads... but will usually be the one with least connections to other track in it... put another way... connections are usually made into loops where available rather than the main.  This allows higher line speed on the main and means that any/most switching can be done in the clear on the loop while things approach/run by out on the main.

It varies but... what we call "Running Signals" - the ones' controlling trains in their journeys - are usually more prominent and all of one type [of head] whereas signals exiting side tracks are less prominent and may have a different head.  In general you can look at assorted switches from side tracks having switch indicators.  You may or may not want to make these working.

The broadly earlier and heavier Eastern roads like the PRR and B&O tended to both design and make their own signalling equipment and this stands out strongly when you look at any pictures of their lines.  Other roads large and small bought in from the big signal equipment supply comapnies such as Westinghouse - the other names elude me for the moment...  This means that a lot of non-Eastern signal equipment looks very much the same... how it is installed and used might vary though.

There's lots of good models available in Walthers Catalogue.  A lot depends on your budget and how much time/effort you want to put into them.  I like the NJ International and Tomar Industries working signals and my switch indicators are Detail Associates (IIRC)... haven't put any of them together/into use yet.

If you want a broad/generic appearance using broadly NORAC rules and  readily available bits the easy way to start is to decide whether you are going to use "Searchlight" signals with one physical aspect capable of showing two ro three colours OR "vertical aspects" with two or three physical aspects vertically... usually showing one colour each... but, just to confuse things, they may show more.

Both searchlight and vertical can be one head on a post or two and sometimes three vertically.  These are available from the suppliers I've mentioned... all you haven to do is figure out which ones you want!  Good luck!

You might find it easier to stay away from flashing aspects

Don't forget that a signal head has to be placed where the indication it gives will be seen by engineers of approaching trains... and NOT confused.

One thing that complicates what we model is that we shorten distances and increase the sharpness of curves.  We have to make compromises in our signalling to resolve how we adjust our signals to fit to this.  If we are not careful we can bury the layout in too many signals all bunched up together and they can end up pointing almost across the track where we have a very sharp curve.

Hope this helps

PS You can always cheat, go for the best RR and use cab signals... which means hat you don't need much at lineside.

And before anyone starts to say that the PRR or whoever didn't have cab signalling the BEST was CNW... they have to be ... they run on the correct side!

[GC&P]

A couple of good books, though both are out of print, are "All About Signals" by John Armstrong and "How To Operate Your Model Rarilroad" by Bruce Chubb. Chapter nine of Chubb's book deals with signaling and how you can simplify it for a model RR.

Tangentially related, if you're interested in building your own signals (the commercial ones are kinda expensive), I found a source of 3mm LED's last night. "Michael's" stores carry a line of christmas village decorations. The brand name is "Lemax." One of the items is a string of 50 LED's to use as christmas light decorations in your village. The strings come either all clear, or multicolored. The multicolored ones are red, yellow and green - just what's needed for RR colored light signals. Each string also includes a battery holder with on/off switch for two AA cells. The holder will also accept an external 3 volt source. Lemax also makes a "wall wart" type. I didn't buy one.  The price for the light strings is $7.99, although they were on sale (for how long?) at 40% off last night. The UPC code for the clear string is 7 28162 54388 2 and for the multicolored string, 7 28162 54387 5.

[Anonymous]

If you can't find the books above, try to get the December, 2002 Model Railroader article about Understanding Railroad Signals.  It's a very good primer to what can be an extremely complex subject.

There are different types of signals, such as the old semaphores, color-light signals that look like modern traffic signals, and searchlight signals.  Look in the Walthers catalog (or web site).

There are also different types of systems, with protection from the basics to full CTC systems invoving a dispatcher setting routes.

And, of course,  prototype railroads used them all a bit differently.

For modelling, there are, of course, also many options, from very basic to very complex  computer-controlled systems.  Probably the best known is Bruce Chubb's C/MRI (Computer to Model Railroad Interface) system, which I use, with circuit boards designed by him for just that purpose.  There was a 4-part series in the January through April, 2004 issues of MR.

I'd suggest trying to find a club layout in your area -- if it doesn't have a signalling system, I'll bet some of the members do.  Most likely, there are different styles and types, along with various opinions about what's "best".

A couple of web sites:

Bruce Chubb's JLC enterprises: http://www.jlcenterprises.net/index.htm

The C/MRI User Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CMRI_Users/

[dinwitty]

signals are to provide protection, thats the base use. Signal color was to indicate the speed to run.

Basic block signals need only one head. RYG. A switch  at the leading point can have 2 heads.
GR means green above, red below.

GR: straight thru clear 2 blocks ahead,  Diverging path closed (You go straight)
RG: Straight thru closed, Diverging path clear 2 blocks ahead

yellow on either means clear one block ahead ready to stop at next signal.

you most likely wont go further in the signalling,
but signals can go to 3 heads, or have GG indications, YG,GY etc and has to do with advanced block signaling.

Signals on the layout are cool. have fun.

[Anonymous]

Try this link.  It is on the Trains Magazine portion of the site.   http://www.trains.com/trn/default.aspx?c=a&id=191

 

Dave

[nbrodar]

Where you are in the country and what road or roads you have would be useful to help us give you answers.

I have found the NORAC generic rules a good place to start to broadly understand US operating practice... signals don't mean a thing without fitting into a system of how they are used.

I've had a lot of help from people on this forum, especially Nick (Further name with held so that he doesn't get swamped!   ... at least, not until after we've finished working out my signals ).

Gee thanks Dave.

Prototype US signalling is a fairly complex system of over 100 different aspects (what the signal looks like) convaying 18 different indications (what the signal means) that govern the speed at which the train may operate.

Here's a simplistic explanation, using color lights

Block signals are automatically controlled by track circuits, and are permissive (crew may pass any indication the signal displays).  Generally the signals display:

• Clear - green - at least two block ahead are clear
• Approach - yellow - next block is clear, the second block is occupied
• Stop & Proceed - red w/ number plate - next block is occupied. After stopping you may pass signal at Restricted Speed.

Controlled Point signals - dispatcher controlled signals governing movements at Controlled Points - interlockings, moveable bridges, etc.  These signal are always Absolute (capable of displaying a stop and stay indication).  CP signals often have two or more heads to display the extra information needed.  The dispatcher lines the switches and clears the signals, then the interlocking mechanism displays the approiate aspect. (Just a few)

• Clear - green over red - proceed thru normal side of turnout
• Medium Clear - red over green - proceed thru diverging side of turnout at medium speed
• Restricting - red over yellow - proceed at restricted speed.
• Stop - red over red - Stop

Any of the aspects can be further restricted into various Approach indications, due to blocks occupied ahead

Few layouts are large enough to warrent a truely prototypical system.  However you can apply some simplied principals to a layout of any size.

Take my system, for example:

•  Block signals(one head) indicate the condition of the next block and display green (OK to enter block) or red (do not enter block)only.  
• CP Signals (two head) indicate the condition of the next block (top head) - green (OK to enter block) or red (do not enter block) and the position of the turnouts (bottom head) - green (line straight), yellow (lined diverging), or red (lined against).
• A red on either head of a CP signal means Stop.

The type of signal head used is also important - you could often tell a railroad by it's signals:

• PRR - position light
• B&O - color position light
• Reading (and many other northeastern lines) - G head color light (three lamps arranged in a triangle)
• C&O (and other southeastern roads) - D head color light (three lamps in a vertical line)
• SP (and other western roads) - Searchlight (one lamp capable of displaying three colors)

Hope this helps some.

Nick

 

[Dave Vollmer]

The PRR used its own distinctive Position Light signal sytem which was used only on the PRR and the LIRR.  A row of 3 generally amber lights mimicks the position of a semaphore arm.  Three horizontal means Stop, three diagonally means Approach, and three vertical means Clear.

In my photo below you see in the two signals facing you Approach on the left and Absolute Stop on the right.  Absolute Stop was often used at interlockings and meant stop and stay stopped.  This was often indicated on the Pennsy by a pair of horizontal red lights, vs. the row of three horizontal amber lights seen in the distance above the tower facing away from you.  However, the addition of the lower light on that signal also indicates Absolute Stop.  The signal above the steam engine reads clear, but will very shortly drop to Absolute Stop as the train enters the interlocking.

Signals can be pretty complex if you want them to be, but I think the addition of any signals at all, even if they just light up, are an immense improvement over none at all.

[jeffrey-wimberly]

Try this site. I found it extremely helpful in figuring out train signals.

http://www.lundsten.dk/us_signaling/index.html

This site may help you also.

http://www.trainweb.org/signals/usssls_types.htm

And still another site to try.

http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/LDSIGprimer/Signal.html