FORUM CLINIC: 12 years using DCC - SIGNIFICANT NEW INFO!

[Anonymous]

Joe,

I have Easy DCC as well and find that replacing the batteries in the wireless throttles is a hassle. Are there any tricks?...Those clips are pretty stiff and I always have the feeling I am going to break something.... My theory is that they should be designed like most cordless phones/toothbrushes etc...with a rechargeable battery hardwired in and a recharging base station to store the throttles in when not in use...

I am following this thread with great interest because we have the same system and I am in the process of making all of the usual mistakes building the layout...Maybe you can help me avoid a few of them with regards to DCC installation.

Guy

[selector]

I am using EZ Track, and their powered turnouts. They are wired into a second, spdt-isolated DC transformer that I use only for turnouts. So, inorder to run my transition era lines, I have to 'throw' them manually, but remotely. I like that arrangement because it is more intensive and involved.

[jrbernier]

The only wireless issue I have ever run ito is the low battery one. I have never seen 'out of range' issues(layout is 20' by 25' in a large 'L' shape). As I mentioned, I keep the DCC power active and my Digitrax throttles do not drain the batteries as long as they are plugged in. This also makes keeping track of them easy! Of course, I only have 4 wireless throttles to keep track of....

Jim Bernier

[jfugate]

Guy:

To answer your EasyDCC wireless throttles question, here's something Wayne Roderick has done to make changing batteries easier on his throttles. This is a post totally lifted from the EasyDCC Yahoo list (which I suggest EasyDCC user's join, if you haven't done so already).

BTW, each of the DCC systems has a Yahoo list for it ... I recommend you join the list for the system you have or are thinking of purchasing. Registering is free, and you will learn tons from other users of your system this way.

QUOTE:
At 12:08 PM 7/29/02 -0700, Mike Davison wrote:
>
>Can rechargable AAA batteries be used in the wireless thottles? If so, any
>recommendations for type/brand?

Mike, when we looked at the battery costs for our club operation, we came up
with this:

Nicads have only 1/2 the energy storage, hence frequent removal to recharge.
Initial expense, including a charger is high. If the cabs could be dropped into
a charger, much like most two-way radios, then we'd pursue this one.

The wireless throttles use four AAAs in a series/parallel arrangement apparently
to fit the case. The working voltage is 3-Volts. Very tidy.
Sure gets HOT when some goofball reverses one of 'em

AAs have about twice the energy that AAAs have but cost about the same.
Two AAs about equal the energy capacity of four AAAs. If you reverse one or
both AAs, no harm done.

The cabs tend to fall on their face if left upright, so you lay them down and
lose 'em until a train comes along and wacks it.

The solution:

Cemented a double AA case on the back, flush with the bottom and tack soldered
its wires to the appropriate AAA clips inside. No touche the pc :-)

Batteries cost half as much, easier to replace and the cab stands upright
tending to eliminate the statement "where did I lay the #@$#$ thing"

Same batteries that we been buying in bulk for the old Aristo-radio

Wayne (We LOVE our EZ-DCC) in Idaho

Wayne Roderick P.E. (EE) (ret) (NMRA life-1721)
CEO, Teton Short Line, Pocatello Idaho, USA
http://www.ida.net/users/tetonsl/railroad

[jfugate]

TOPIC THIS POST: Setting up the programming track
For certain decoder programming operations, programming the decoder with a special programming track is recommended. DCC command stations have a programming track output that is to be wired to a section of track to be used as a "programming track", also known as "service mode" programming. Once you have set up your loco, the handier way to make programming tweaks is to do "programming on the main" or "ops mode" programming. More on this later.

I recommend you find a location in an engine servicing area of a yard that has a track near the front edge of the layout and designate that as your programming track. If you have the programming track connected to the layout, you'll minimize the need to handle your locomotives and you can use this track in regular operations too.

However, you need wire the programming track appropriately to avoid problems. If a loco happens to bridge the gap between the programming track rails and the regular layout rails, you can fry decoders or blow the programming circuitry in your command station.

Here's how to wire a programming track properly so it's safe to have it connected to the rest of the layout.


THE SAFE WAY TO WIRE THE PROGRAMMING TRACK

(click to see a larger image)

The secret to wiring the programming track safely into the rest of the layout is to include a "switched" dead track section between the programming track and the rest of the layout. Cut gaps in both rails as shown in the diagram to create these three track sections. If your programming track is stub-ended rather than a through track as shown here, you can get away with a single dead section only at the end that connects to the rest of the layout.

This diagram shows how you can do this with a 4 pole double throw toggle switch. If you throw the toggle one direction (RUN I call it), all the track sections are connected to the layout power bus and can be used as normal. If you throw the toggle the other direction (PROGRAM I call it), the track sections on each side of the programming track go dead, and the middle section gets connected to the programming track leads out of your command station.

You should make each of these track sections 1.5 times the length of your longest locomotive. For modern diesels in HO, that's about 16" or so -- for modern steam locos in HO, that's about 26" per section.

If you do happen to leave the toggle thrown to PROGRAM and someone tries to run a loco onto this track from the layout, when the loco gets to the dead track section, it will immediately stop and no harm will be done.

If someone tries to assign a throttle to a locomotive sitting on the programming track when it's thrown to PROGRAM, nothing will move and again, no harm done.

You don't want to bridge the gaps from the programming track to the dead section with a loco. I have marked the ends of the programming track section on my layout with some old worn ties so it's easy to center a loco in the programming section before I switch from RUN to PROGRAM.


A CLEVER PROGRAMMING TRACK WIRING ALTERNATIVE

(click to see a larger image)

Gerry Hopkins, MMR, recommends this variation on the basic circuit above. If you swap the track power and dead section feeds around, you can wire in an LED with a 1K resistor so that when you throw the 4PDT toggle to program, it will light up the LED.

This LED can be in a signal on the layout, mounted between the rails, or on the panel next to the RUN/PROGRAM toggle.

Here's a link to Gerry's web site where he talks about this alternative: http://www.nmra.org.au/Hints/Program%20Track/Program%20Track.html


This will get you set up with a safe programming track that's connected to your layout and won't harm decoders or your command station, and when you're in run mode, you can run locos on it just like the rest of your layout trackage.

But there's more to making the best use of your programming track -- we'll cover more hints and tips on setting up and using the programming track in the next post.

TOPIC NEXT POST: More programming track tips

[simon1966]

Excellent post Joe, modifications are in order! My programming track is not protected like this, and I had never really considered the consequence of not protecting it. So off to find me a 4PDT switch!!

[hminky]

This may sound stupid. But why all the trouble for a programming track? Just have a siding with a dead section before the programming track and pu***he loco onto the track and push it off. Most newer decoders only need programming the address on a programming track the rest is done on the Po mode.
Just a thought
Harold

[jfugate]

Harold:

First, the programming track is the only place you can *read back* CV settings, which at times is very valuable when you are tuning and troubleshooting things. Having a programming track where you *don't have to handle your locos* in any way preserves their detail. I don't know how many times I've busted some detail off a loco from handling it -- and believe me, I'm careful. It just can't be avoided when you handle a loco -- even just to push it into a programming track as you suggest.

By wiring the programming track this way, it can also be a regular part of your layout trackage and you can use it normally when not programming something.

Finally, this is not that much trouble. You can find 4PDT toggles at most any electronics supply store as well as online. Here's a 4PDT slide switch you can get online for 35 cents! ( http://www.alltronics.com/switches.htm - scroll down a ways) A toggle switch is nicer and will cost more, but the slide switch will certainly do the job.

I cut the gaps and wired this up on my layout in less than an hour. And it's darn convenient! The worst that's ever happened is someone asks why nothing will run on my turntable lead (which is where I have my programming track). Just flip the toggle back to RUN and things run just fine!

[MisterBeasley]

Joe - you mentioned using 12-guage STRANDED wire for your track power bus. At these voltages and currents, will there be any difference in using SOLID wire instead? 12-guage solid wire is standard home 120 volt circuit wire, so it's sold in great big rolls at great big home-supply stores, which reduces the great big prices considerably.

[jfugate]

MB:

No electrical difference between stranded and solid wire of the same guage. I like stranded wire because it's a bit easier to work with than solid, and small guage solid wire tends to break if you stress a joint somewhere too much.

Larger guage solid wire is harder to maneuver around because of the excess stiffness, but breakage isn't really a problem like it is with the small stuff. If you can get a good deal on 12 guage solid, I'd say go for it.

[:D]

[rrinker]

Either will work. But I know for a fact Home Depot has great big spools of #12 STRANDED in stock, because that's where I got mine. 500ft sppols of each color. That was the best deal - the 500' spool was less than 2x the price of the 100' spool, and I KNOW I'll need it, if not immediately, eventually.
Home Depot also has the good Ideal wire strippers that can work both at the end of a wire and in the middle. This is simply the best tool for doing wiring - easily strips the end of my #20 feeder drops, and then peels back the insulation on my #12 bus wire. I solder all my connections, I just do not trust crimp-on connections. At my terminal strips, I used the crimp-on spade lugs. I crimp them on the #12, but then I ALSO solder them.

--Randy

[jfugate]

Randy:

You don't happen to have a brand or model number on those wire strippers do you? They sound dandy.

I have an adjustable set of wire strippers I use for the really small stuff like the #30 wire used with decoders. They work great and they weren't all that expensive. Got them at Radio Shack.

BTW, I'll be discussing wiring tips and tricks later on in this FORUM CLINIC ...

[rrinker]

It's the Ideal Stripmaster, I believe it's 45-092, does wire sizes from 10 to 22. It has blue cushion handles. I don't know if Home Depot hasthem, but repalcement blades are available for these, too - so it's a lifetime tool.
I don't know if you have one, but the Ideal Telemaster is the best tool for crimping RJ connectors to make cab and throttle bus cabling. Like the Stripmaster, it isn't cheap - but it's a solid METAL tool, far beyond the typical cheap plastic crimpers.I've reached the point where the frustration and wasted time from using cheap tools or 'making do' with a similar tool just isn't worth it.

--Randy

[rexhea]

Just a suggestion about buying wire: If you have a friend with a contractor's license, get him to buy it for you at Home Depot or Lowes. Contractor's price is almost half. Also, the good thing about 12 gauge solid is the ability to form it around the layout neatly and not have the droop of the stranded.

REX [;)]

[Bob Hayes]

Joe,
Newark sells the Ideal Stripmaster 45-097, 16-26 ga, for $39.00. Ideal also makes a stripper, the 45-092, 10-22 ga for the same price. Seems to me I've seen them at Fry's for less, and maybe Radio Shack, too.

On your track plan, published in the Feb. 1997 MR, where is your programming track?
Bob Hayes

[jfugate]

Bob:

My programming track is in the middle of my turntable lead in Roseburg on the upper level.

Right here on my current track plan:

(click to see a larger image)

Scroll the large image to the right and you'll see where my programming track is.

[jwr_1986]

Radioshack sells a stripper that does what you describe, is of all metal construction, and has a cutter and some common crimps built in. It is $16, they also sell a tool for the RJ connectors that is all metal with the crimping part on a pivot so it strikes the contacts evenly and it is just under $40. As for the wire don't be afraid to try a real supply house (Not Home Depot or Lowe's). They tend to deal in larger and cheaper quantities and unlike the people from lowe's and HD they actually know what they are doing and can offer advice. Hope this helps.

Jesse

[n2mopac]

Going backwards a bit to the first topic, I have a question. I have purchase but not yet installed MRC's Prodicy Advance system. Can the throttle bus be "T"ed or split on this system? Also, the command station has room for multiple throttle connections. Can I plug separate throttle busses into these separate ports to go differend directions? Thanks for your input.

Ron

[jfugate]

I don't actually own nor have I used a Prodigy Advance DCC system, but I have read the downloadable manuals and can make several observations from having read the manuals. In some cases the manuals are absolutely silent on certain topics like a layout throttle bus, so I have to make an educated guess.

From what I read in the MRC manuals for the Prodigy Advance system, it is not meant to be a system with larger layout capabilities (we'll call this "scaling upward" here). MRC's DCC offerings tend to be for smaller layouts and include many places where they cut some corners so they can deliver a cheaper package. That's neither good nor bad, just a different philosophy.

As a result, MRC's DCC offerings have lots of annoying little limitations that crop up if you try to scale the system much beyond a bedroom sized layout (anything over about 200 square feet).

For example, the 4 throttle bus sockets in the command station have a priority and only allow one throttle per socket, so you *cannot* extend these sockets into a throttle bus to allow multiple throttles to be plugged in to that one command station socket.

Whoever plugs a single throttle into the first socket wins, then whoever is plugged into the second socket with a throttle trumps sockets 3 and 4. As a result, socket 4 is at the end of the pecking order and loses to all the other throttles. So you are limited to 4 tethered throttles max with Prodigy Advance.

This is unlike the more robust DCC systems out there (Digitrax, Lenz, NCE, EasyDCC) where all throttles are equal on a throttle bus and the bus allows a much larger number than 4 throttles to be plugged into it at a time.

Also, MRC doesn't even discuss throttle bus wiring in their manuals, although they do sell a 12 foot throttle socket extender. Again this furthers the notion their system design philosophy is *small* layout -- the max being a bedroom of say, 12 x 15 feet. Probably the majority of home layouts are in this size range, so their design and marketing philosophy makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately, MRC does not spell that out in their literature or manuals. You kind of have to read between the lines to discover this.

But if you have any "model RR empire aspirations" at all and you want to get a single system you can grow into as your layout grows, don't go MRC. You'll have to replace your DCC system once your layout gets much beyond 200 square feet in size.

Again, this is best I can tell from reading the manuals. If the system will expand to support an empire, it's odd that MRC doesn't address how to upscale their system at all in their manuals.

[jfugate]

TOPIC THIS POST: More programming tips
Okay, you know where you want to put the programming track on your layout, and you know how to wire it in so you won't do any harm to your command station or your decoders.

What other things are helpful to know regarding decoder programming?


PROGRAMMING ON THE MAIN
Although having a programming track is essential for a few things like setting the intial decoder address, or reading back decoder settings, programming on the main, or “Ops Mode” programming as it's officially called is the preferred way to program loco decoders.

Ops mode programming allows you to literally “program on the fly” -- even while a loco is in motion – anywhere on the layout! This can be especially handy for things like speed curve adjustments and speed matching, but it also allows you to change almost any setting in an instant, anywhere, any time.

Originally, there was no Ops Mode programming, only programming a decoder on the programming track. This meant having a stationary command station made lots of sense, like EasyDCC does.

However, with Ops Mode programming, you can program virtually anything anywhere, so systems with handheld and portable command station programming capability makes lots of sense too (Digitrax, Lenz, and NCE).

In my case, I have not found a huge need to program decoders during an op session, so Ops Mode programming during an op session has not been a strong need of mine. I have found, however, that with all the decoder settings these days, programming decoders is far easier using a lap top PC and software like DecoderPro.


DECODER PRO
DecoderPro is free, open source software that is part of the JMRI (Java Model Railroad Interface) initiative. In the last decade, open source software initiatives have been appearing ever more frequently. Interested parties pool their efforts and build computer software applications that meet a certain common need, and the group shares the results with the general public at no cost, and invites other software developers to join in to add still more new features.

In the business world, the hope is supplementary items like training and support will be useful enough people will pay for it, and that's how the open source effort gets funded. In the hobby arena like Model Railroading, the idea is more to help each other better enjoy the hobby, and open source software like DecoderPro is almost a hobby within itself.

At any rate, DecoderPro is a very nice piece of software with lots of people contributing to it all the time so it's constantly growing and improving. It's already a very useful application for programming decoders and you can run it on Windows, the Mac, and Linux – thanks to the fact it's written in Java.

We'll take an entire post or two in the future to discuss installing and using DecoderPro in detail, but for now, if you want to learn more, browse on over to: http://jmri.sourceforge.net/apps/DecoderPro/index.html


Using DecoderPro to program a speed table. (click to enlarge)


THE POWER PAX
Some modern decoders, especially sound decoders, are getting a reputation of sometimes being “unprogrammable” on a programming track. Sure you can do programming on the main with Ops Mode, but I like being able to read back decoder configuration variable (CV) settings, and for that, you need to be on the programming track. And to set the initial decoder address, you have to use the programming track (aka "serivce mode programming").

To read back CV settings, the command station has to play a game of “20 questions” with the decoder, looking for a “yes” or “no” answer. To signal a yes, the decoder will “spin” the motor for a fraction of a second and the command station will pick up the increased current draw as a yes.

Some decoders, like the latest crop of sound decoders, are current hungry and won't program properly on the programming track. This was not anticiapted by the initial designers of the DCC systems so you can end up with some decoders being virtually unprogrammable on the programming track. In effect, the evolution of high-tech decoders has outpaced the ability of most systems to program them!



Enter the Power Pax, a new programming track add-on that boosts programming track power, allowing you to do what's called “blast mode programming”. Blast mode programming sends an initial burst of power (200 ma, still within the NMRA specifications for service mode programming thus avoiding decoder burnout) to the programming track for current hungry decoders to absorb, then sends the programming signal for the decoder.

I have added a Power Pax to my programming track leads and find all my decoder programming woes are gone. I have yet to find a decoder I can't program with the Power Pax hooked into my system.

For more on the Power Pax, see: http://www.tonystrains.com/technews/powerpax.htm

(NOTE: Newer systems are just now appearing that do "blast mode" programming, and don't need the PowerPax. If you have a Digitrax Zephyr or the newest version EasyDCC system, they already do blast mode, so you do not need the Power Pax.)


Next post, let's discuss some dos and don'ts regarding how to wire your layout for DCC.

TOPIC NEXT POST: DCC Wiring tips

[simon1966]

Joe, I wanted to throw in another tip that may save some folks some grief programming with the program track. Lenz decoders (also found in the first Atlas non sound DCC and I beleive the Bachmann DCC offerings) do not put enough load on the programming track and are often not recognized by the DCC system. On the Zephyr, this is indicated by a dnd error message. A 1K resistor accross the track solves the problem. Since the 1K resistor is not needed for other brands of decoder you can either build it into the program track switch circuit, or make a simple rig with a 1K resistor and a pair of aligator clips. I have used this solution and it works like a charm.

[jfugate]

Thanks, Simon ... great tip!

[jfugate]

How we doing so far ... are we covering things you find useful? Any questions on what we've covered so far?

[knewsom]

Joe,

I have the Prodigy Advanced system, and it says in the manual that it will support up to 99 cabs. On the PA there are 3 ports for plugging in throttles on the command station and one that is for factory use only. You can purchase the extension plates to expand and it says that the command station can support up to 6 throttles. After those 6 you will need to buy a special powered extension plate (available through MRC only of course) for every additional 5 throttles.

It does not have a lot of detail in the PA manual, but it appears that you can create a throttle bus by splitting the ethernet type connectors. I have two throttles for my layout and I am in the process of setting up the throttle bus. I am awaiting the y-harness for the extension plates that I ordered. When I get them I will test to make sure that you can run multiple throttles from one of the ports on the command station.

I should also add that the MRC manual says that the base unit can only communicate with one throttle at a time. So for optimum performance you should set the last cab# so that it will not try to communicate with throttles above that id. In addition there is a switch on the command station to limit the # of throttle cabs to #1-#8 to increase performance as well. I don't know if other systems work the same as this but I just wanted to give some more detail on the Prodigy Advanced.

Thanks,
Kevin

PS. I am really enjoying this thread.

[jfugate]

Kevin:

Thanks for the insight on the Prodigy Advance system. Keep us posted as to how your throttle bus experiences go. I'm sure many of us would like to know how far you can press this system, given its attractive price.

[jwar]

Joe
Im sure glad I'm holding off for a bit before getting a DCC system. Again both you and Rinker have saved me a few $$$$, in my quest for a system. Both in not purchasing a type of decoder and the Power Pax. Your topic is helping us out here more then you know, Thanks again...John

[simon1966]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

How we doing so far ... are we covering things you find useful? Any questions on what we've covered so far?

OOh, I don't know Joe....1500 odd views, 55 posts almost 4 pages, and you have only posted 4 clinic topics. I don't think anyone is very interested[:D]

[selector]

Yeah, it's a shame, really. Looked so promising, too. [;)]

[n2mopac]

QUOTE: Originally posted by knewsom

Joe,

I have the Prodigy Advanced system, and it says in the manual that it will support up to 99 cabs. On the PA there are 3 ports for plugging in throttles on the command station and one that is for factory use only. You can purchase the extension plates to expand and it says that the command station can support up to 6 throttles. After those 6 you will need to buy a special powered extension plate (available through MRC only of course) for every additional 5 throttles.

It does not have a lot of detail in the PA manual, but it appears that you can create a throttle bus by splitting the ethernet type connectors. I have two throttles for my layout and I am in the process of setting up the throttle bus. I am awaiting the y-harness for the extension plates that I ordered. When I get them I will test to make sure that you can run multiple throttles from one of the ports on the command station.

I should also add that the MRC manual says that the base unit can only communicate with one throttle at a time. So for optimum performance you should set the last cab# so that it will not try to communicate with throttles above that id. In addition there is a switch on the command station to limit the # of throttle cabs to #1-#8 to increase performance as well. I don't know if other systems work the same as this but I just wanted to give some more detail on the Prodigy Advanced.

Thanks,
Kevin

PS. I am really enjoying this thread.

Thanks Kevin and Joe for your Prodigy Advance insight. Kevin, I look forward to hearing about your progress as it will certainly help me as I set up my Prodigy Advance over the next few months. I purchased the PA bacause, while I knew it still had its limitations, I believed it was much more full featured than MRC's past DCC endeavors and that it would suit the needs on my new layout for some time.

I am building a 17' X 17' around the walls with a penninsula, total mail line just under 100', total track with yards and sidings approx. 300'. I will be running 2 throttles to start with and may expand to a max of 4--there just isn't room for more operators than that in this layout. My aspirations beyound this layout are certainly years down the line, and I figure there will be many "next best products" on the market by then, so upgrading beyond my present layout size and 4 cabs was not a concern to me. I would, however, like to install dual ports in 4 locations on the layout--a total of 8 ports to support a max of 4 throttles. Anyway, if any of this helps you understand my situation, any insight is welcome and helpful as I would like to install this thing right the first time and not have to do is multiple times. Thanks all.

Ron

[rexhea]

Go Joe!
Hmmmm! That sounds like a good name for hand soap.

Joe, you are doing great with complete and easy to understand explanations.

REX [^]