To DCC or not to DCC

[Anonymous]

I getting ready (or in my neck of the woods - I'm fixin') to build a N scale layout of at least 4'X8' might even go larger. My question is how hard is it to retrofit a layout to DCC if it is not built with it in place. I'd like to buld my layout and get it the way I like it etc etc. But I don't know if I should build DCC into it now or later, later being when I have more funds to invest in the cost of the DCC equipment. I've been out of trains for a number of years and I'm just getting back into it as so many of us do. And man how things have changed since the early 70's. Any ideas, any input, anything? Thanks in advance for your help!

Dave

[Jacktal]

Retrofitting a DC powered layout is quite simple as DCC requires far less wiring complexity.Wires installed for DC will carry AC just the same and some of them will even become useless with DCC.

My first suggestion is for you to visit Loy's Toys website and/or DCC manufacturer's sites and take some time to study the basics of DCC,you'll discover how simple it is compared to block control in both installation and operation.My opinion is that alone justifies the added costs.

Even more,if you're planning on eventual expansion,the costs of all the hardware(switches,relays,etc) that you will need for block control in DC will get pretty close or even exceed the costs of a basic DCC system on the long run,and this without the fun of DCC.Is it worthed the savings?Up to you to decide.

[dehusman]

The only concern is the wiring size. Use way larger wire for the buss wires with DCC since you can get more power draw. The feeders from the buss to the rail can be the same size.

[JLLentner]

I hesitate to offer a comment since I don't have an actual layout, but I would recommend DCC. Once a year, I setup an oval of track on my family room floor and operate my collection of equipment for about a month. Prior to DCC, I could only operate one diesel at a time and could NOT run MU consists of any manufacturers diesels. With DCC, I can easily operate two diesels/consists simultaneously. The ability to make up multi-unit consists, add a helper, have "cornfield meets", and the fantastic speed control, in my opinion, increases the "play value" of model railroading more than anything else w/the exception of NMRA standards.

If the local modular railroad club ever converts to DCC, I will re-join. I dropped out because "parading" trains around under the control of one operator wasn't my idea of fun.

[Anonymous]

Hook up your dcc unit, throw all your blocks to be the same. Run train.

[tomwatkins]

I'd definitly recommend DCC, if possible right from the start. Converting from block control to DCC isn't hard, but DCC is ,to me at any rate, a much better way to run trains regardless of the size of the layout. Buss and feeder wire size does make a difference in performance, but it does in block control too. I'd strongly recommend checking out Loy's Toys' web site. It has lots of good information about DCC and specifically Digitrax. He's also an excellent supplier. I've been dealing with him for my DCC needs for years.

[Anonymous]

The cost of dc versus dcc isn't as great as you imagine. First you have to buy a power pack, or two if you want to run more than one train in dc. Then you have to buy all the selectors and controllers, etc and the book to teach you how, in dc.

You will hear me say this over and over again, but the worst dcc is better than the best dc. The worst dcc is a unit called the MRC2000 and you can probably pick one up used for around $50 off of the internet (ebay) or from a train show. The MRC2000 has three throttles on it. Then you will need some decoders for each engine run, and a cheap power source for the MRC2000. You will get hundreds of hours of running enjoyment on a 4 by 8 layout.

I won't go into the wiring except to say dcc will simplify it for you and you won't need all those selectors and controllers, etc. Your wiring will be done in about a fifth of the time.

[ndbprr]

Now for the rest of the story! DCC is a topic that people are very passionate about. Quite frankly I don't buy the arguement that a 4' x8' railroad will be a wash between DCC and block control. At most you could operate 3-4 trains on a 4'x8'. True with DCC you could cover the tracks with engines and run them all at once but then it wouldn't really be railroading would it? Assume 4 trains and 16 blocks. You can get by with 2 power packs for now and upgrade later. For now even the cheapo ones will do that come with a set. Yes you could go upscale with an MRC but for a first time lets go cheap. Figure $5.00 per block max. and you are less than $150.00 even if you go higher quality and get some used power packs off E bay. Figure $400.00 for DCC for a system you won't outgrow. I see many on E bay that are the cheaper starter sets but none of the higher end ones. That tells me something about satisfaction. Now add about $20.00 per engine for a decoder (more than $100 if you want sound) and the price adds up much higher and quicker than straight old dc blocks. I agree completely with wire it for DCC some day but put the money into better quality rolling stock and scenic elements first and don't forget to leave a way to expand that 4'x8' into something bigger some day. That's the way I'd go but as all the other posts suggest it's just an opinion!

[conford]

DCC is the way to go. Running the layout is easier because you don't have to worry about electrical blocks. If you are building a new layout, build for DCC at the start, although conversion is not difficult, as already pointed out. Wiring the layout is easier because all the feeders are connected to the same bus (set of wires). Yes, converting locomotives is a bother, but some come pre-wired, and some are easier to convert than others. The payoff comes when you run your trains, since all you have to do to change locomotives is punch up its number and away you go.

DCC is Fun!
Find out more at groups.yahoo.com/groups/DCCforFun

[Anonymous]

DCC is the only way to go.I have built 3 layouts in my time and just converted my latest to dcc it was a breese.A few engines were tight but it was worth it.Will never go back to dc.Loys toys is a good place to try.Good luck RjM

[Anonymous]

I'm getting the feeling that DCC is the way to go, I've been reading the Loy's Toys website that so many of you have mentioned and I thank all of you for your valuable input and advice.
Let me fill in a couple of blanks on what I'll be working with ... about 3 yrs ago I went to a auction, you know the 'get a number and stand in the cold and wind' type. And this box lot of "toy trains" came up and no one was bidding. So I made a insulting low bid to start things off and SOLD! I have over 25 engines, 100+ rolling stock, dozens of unbuilt structures, and what looks like miles of track. Since there was a relocation in the works this mass of trains sat motionless and forgotten. With the move complete, and the realization that we have to much stuff I decided I'd sell them. So out of all the stuff there was no power pack, so I ran out and picked up a Tech4 350 power pack set up a little circle on my desk to test the engines. Well, as I watched these little trains chug in a endless circle I was taken back to watching my first Lionel as a child do the same thing. Needless to say the thought of selling vanished and the vision of a layout begun, now a year later the space and a little time is there to tackle this idea. So the 4X8 layout, is still on paper is being designed and re-designed and re-designed again. Clearly a 4X8 will not be large enough to handle that many trains, thus the plan to expand after I get most of my mistakes out of the way. Hopefully most of the mistakes, I'm sure there will be many.
So from what I've read of DCC and the your comments, it would be much easier to expand a DCC layout and control large numbers of trains as I understand it. Not that I plan on having that many trains running at once, I believe it would look a little cramped. I know, I still have a great deal of reading and learning to do. It's been nearly 30 years since I've been in the hobby and it's great to see so many in to it and willing to help those of us either returning after a long break, or those new for the first time. It has changed a great deal and I have a lot of catching up to do. I look forward to more of the advice from those of you current in the hobbie. Thanks again!

Dave

[Jacktal]

In your reply,I can see that you haven't yet made up your mind on your layout plan.It is still on paper,and I believe that's where it should be until you have a definite idea of exactly what you want.My dream layout plan isn't even on paper yet as I am still picturing it in my mind.But I have built what I call my test layout,not meant to be realistic nor fully scenicked,but it does allow me to run my locos and a few cars occasionally to calm my urge to have running trains.It also permits me to try different things and yes...make mistakes...and correct them.This is one route I suggest,attempting the big thing right away may(and probably will) put your dream layout in jeopardy.Simply put,build yourself a simple layout and do run trains when it is your mood to do so,and work on it when...you know....

This way you will learn what you can and can't do at little expense,and it will also allow you to discover what points you like and those you don't thus creating in your mind a much better image of your dream layout.You will be more familiar with track laying,electricity,soldering,scenery,etc.Don't forget,DCC is still a great way to run trains,no matter the size of the layout.

I've purchased Model Railroader's publication "48 Top Notch Track plans" which I suggest to you.It's great reading and well worthed the investment.For more ideas on track planning,DCC,scenery,etc,I also suggest these websites:
-Gateway NMRA
-DCC MB
-Layout design primer
-Atlas model railroad(They do have interesting track plans in both HO and N,and they also have a free layout design software for download).

[Anonymous]

I have a "base" track setup on an office table and I highly agree that the more mistakes and error found up front the less to deal with later. Thus not shooting yourself in the foot and killing the urge to succeed. I have a couple of the books you (Jacktal) listed and the free program from Atlas, but being a industrail engineer (The covered in grease type, not the pen-pocket protector type. LOL) most of my life the one thing I learned, no matter what the program and the opinions is, you don't and won't know if it will work until you build it. So I agree that the current proto-type will help greatly in solving any problems.

[Anonymous]

Sirs,

I may offer an position that DCC may be the way to go in the future. I have seen throttles in the last 30 years or so. Blocks to run trains etc. But DCC appears to be maturing to the point that engines are being sold with DCC controlled uncouplers.

Someday I will have a complete layout and one of the main issues is that the yard lead will be away from the main. Collisions between trains under DCC is now a real possibility.

If I am not mistaken you may need to protect reverse loops and wyes with gaps to prevent electrical shorts.

Good Luck

Lee

[Anonymous]

It's the year 2003, not having DCC is like not having a computer.

[Anonymous]

In the year 2003 not having DCC is like not having a computer in 1985, many folks did, but many folks didn't. I am about to make a "rough" generalization with all the dangers that implies. I have found on average that those less than 10 years in the hobby are more willing to embrace DCC than those who have been in the hobby for a long time. Now I know there are lots of guys in the hobby for 25 years plus who have DCC, but on average the long term guy has his layout built and doesn't want the additional expense of DCC.

The new guy in the hobby wants to copy what the "masters" do, and what they see in the mags is that many are using DCC. Also they read the DCC section of MR and other mags editorials about DCC so they want to emulate what "others" are doing. The new guy into the hobby is also more open to new ideas. For example, one of my friends insists that "zip" texturing is still the best method for colour scenery - the old timers know exactly what I am talking about, the newer guy is saying what is "zip" texturing. We tend to use various "washes" now when we colour our scenery versus the zip method of mixing coloured powder paints with plaster and spraying the results with water.

When reading threads, also be wary of the dc guy who has never run DCC but being an expert on it. In an Atlas forum thread that had the usual back and forth banter about DCC (actually it was about LL products not coming DCC ready), it soon became apparent the dc guys being experts didn't know the difference between a decoder "ready" engine and a decoder equipped engine, thinking both terms meant the same thing.

Two people I know still run their layouts with batteries, which is where the hobby was many many moons ago. Can you imagine if there had been internet model railroad forums then - we would have the battery guys versus the power pack guys. The power pack guys would be the new "punks" in town, and the old guard would be upset that these young uns were trying to pu***his new technology on newbies, when everyone knew that battery technology was just fine.

[Anonymous]

OH the passion of which is best, or at least which is right! I understand Rick's point fully. The last time I had a REAL trainset set up it was power packs and that was it. DCC would have been the US Capitol said but some one with the stutter (No offence to any one with one.) So what to do, what to do? I think I need to see a layout set up with DCC and see it run, however there are not groups or other hobbiest near me that I know of. If you know of a group or a hobbiest near Paduach KY let me know. I don't live there, but it's the closest town any one would have heard of in these parts. Thanks for all the views and advice. I look forward to reading more.

Dave
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