Okay, here's a model railroad thought.
I am very, highly, EXTREMELY skeptical about the possibility of routinely running mile long HO scale trains reliably. The reasons have mostly to do with the fact that physics don't scale, and the forces acting on real coal trains are so very different from the forces acting on a model.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Honestly, I think Kevin's gotten to the crux of it. Let's say our energetic entrepreneur found Aladdin's lamp, and got his display.
Nobody, and I do mean NOBODY, is going to stay interested in something that huge. At some point, a mine is a mine, who cares if it's coal, iron ore, copper, or Spam. A factory is a factory. Et cetera.
People may come once, just to see the elephant. They aren't going to return to see an almost identical elephant.
A few years ago, my brother went to "House on the Rock." About a third of the way through, he was bored, footsore, and claustrophobic.
For that matter, at the Louvre there is an entire gallery of Renaissance life size Crucifixion paintings. Any one of them is a masterpiece, and the style contrasts are amazing.
And after you've looked at about six or eight, you're done. And there are hundreds.
There is a reason theme parks and museums and et cetera are the size they are.
If our artist/actor/script writer/house builder/musician is really interested in making this happen, he should be looking in the trade journals and web sites of the theme park industry, not here.
And the fact that he couldn't figure out he needed Photoshop or a CAD program makes me very very dubious.
NorthBrit How about seeing everything 1-1 scale. David
How about seeing everything 1-1 scale.
David
You mean like having to put up with looking at scenes like this instead of being put inside a germ-filled indoor environment for hours on end full of obese sweaty smelly people pushing strollers containing screaming children?
You may be on to something.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
To the world you are someone. To someone you are the world
I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought
SeeYou190 Jared, The AWESOMELY FUN Disney Springs Complex is only about 100 acres. It is easy to spend a whole day just wandering about the place and taking in all the sites, restaurants, and the Star Wars Store. I would consider this to be the absolute maximum size for any attraction that would be visited in a day. -Kevin
Jared,
The AWESOMELY FUN Disney Springs Complex is only about 100 acres. It is easy to spend a whole day just wandering about the place and taking in all the sites, restaurants, and the Star Wars Store.
I would consider this to be the absolute maximum size for any attraction that would be visited in a day.
-Kevin
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrainWe could replicate the entire U.S. railroad system in TTT scale,
A compromise might be NNN or what used to be called 'Agnew' scale, about half the size and hence a quarter the footprint of TTT. That's a valuable potential saving for the combined offshore casino/cruise resort/Sea Org combined facility anchored tax-free in international waters. In fact I suspect you could easily get both United States and Taiwanese support to establish large model railroads on permanent anchorage in various locations in the South China Sea area.
SeeYou190 With the number of small structures Jared's project would need, he would need to hire a company to create a system of plastic modular building components, brick, wood, and masonry, that can be assembled in hundreds of different ways. These would need to be assembled and painted at the factory, probably in China, and shipped to the US. I think he would need at least 10,000 of these, maybe 100,000. At minimum, the hobby will get a new line of modular building components! Jared could sell these in the museum gift shop. That alone would be worth a trip to Orlando. -Kevin
With the number of small structures Jared's project would need, he would need to hire a company to create a system of plastic modular building components, brick, wood, and masonry, that can be assembled in hundreds of different ways. These would need to be assembled and painted at the factory, probably in China, and shipped to the US. I think he would need at least 10,000 of these, maybe 100,000.
At minimum, the hobby will get a new line of modular building components!
Jared could sell these in the museum gift shop. That alone would be worth a trip to Orlando.
Living the dream.
Overmod, you disappoint me. Like Kevin, you are thinking small. But thinking small gives me an entirely new approach to this project. We could replicate the entire U.S. railroad system in TTT scale, 1:1440. Each visitor would be provided with a mega-magnifier Optivisor for easy viewing. I am loving this more and more.
richhotrainI propose to replicate the entire lower 48 states in HO scale. That way, every piece of track in the Continental U.S. will be covered.
Personally I think you need to consider building this in μ scale instead of tired old expensive and bulky legacy HO, with all its compatibility and wiring and dust-collection issues. Calculated great-circle ultralineamentum for your project is ~2802mi which in μ will fit handily into a 15' space, leaving you some coastal shipping and Canadian/Mexican interchange to expand the potential pool of interested viewers.
Note that in the pandemic, and of course should expedient social control be perpetuated or re-imposed, the strictly-virtual viewing access associated with μ is far less of a drawback -- and of course streaming recording and subsequent viral reposting to social media is facilitated by it. Sure, there are limits to how many independent scan-gantry heads are installed, but with the money you save just on real-estate taxes and commissions you can pay for a considerable amount of both equipment and bandwidth!
Best of all, it becomes possible to co-locate complete versions of the national rail presence in different eras, or even in alternate-history worlds like Turtledove's or Harrison's, in a footprint no larger than that to be picked up for a song from going-bankrupt millennial lifestyle chains in shopping malls. Leaving plenty of room for the gift shop, refreshment facilities, and fully-equipped nanofab facilities.
Well, now you are thinking like a visionary. Let me ask you this, Kevin. Could we build this project out in the Gulf itself? Kinda like a super giant oil drilling rig platform. I mean, just look at what China has accomplished, building huge islands for bases in the South China Sea.
richhotrainThat's the problem with you, Kevin, and quite frankly it surprises me. You apparently are not the visionary that I thought you were.
Back when I first joined this forum there was a thread that suggested building a small railroad tie-for-tie just like the prototype in every way.
I responded with information on what it would take to model just the diminutive local SEMINOLE GULF in Fort Myers. The size of just that small system would be staggering.
I pointed out that the hundreds upon hundreds of buildings that would be within 18 inches of the track as it plundered through East Fort Myers would be an insurmountable hurdle to cross.
Just the Raymond Building Supply facility and spur (1 track) would be larger than almost any home layout if modeled to scale in full.
The mile-long lift bridge across the Caloosahachee River, and the Interstate 75 bridge parallel to it would be a project few could complete in a lifetime.
A lot of forum members told me to stop poo-pooing the idea. I guess I have never been much of a visionary.
SeeYou190 richhotrain Quit thinking small, Kevin. All of our structures will be built on hurricane proof stilts. Well, we cannot build on the Everglades National Park, Okeechobee water basin or Intercoastal Waterway watershed, Sugar Cane Fields, Orange Groves, Winter Salads Fields, Ocala National Forest, Seminole or Miccosukee Tribal Lands, or the Babcock Wildlife Management Area. I just do not see how it will fit. -Kevin
richhotrain Quit thinking small, Kevin. All of our structures will be built on hurricane proof stilts.
Well, we cannot build on the Everglades National Park, Okeechobee water basin or Intercoastal Waterway watershed, Sugar Cane Fields, Orange Groves, Winter Salads Fields, Ocala National Forest, Seminole or Miccosukee Tribal Lands, or the Babcock Wildlife Management Area.
I just do not see how it will fit.
Besides, if environmental concerns become an insurmountable obstacle, we can always relocate the project to Mississippi. Plenty of usable land there.
richhotrainQuit thinking small, Kevin. All of our structures will be built on hurricane proof stilts.
SeeYou190 richhotrain Now we need to find the space. We would need 43,610 square miles to complete our HO scale project. The state of Florida is just under 66,000 square miles, so we got the space. When do we start? Not enough of that 66,000 square miles in Florida is buildable. You need to find a place with less protected land and fewer swamps.
richhotrain Now we need to find the space. We would need 43,610 square miles to complete our HO scale project. The state of Florida is just under 66,000 square miles, so we got the space. When do we start?
Not enough of that 66,000 square miles in Florida is buildable. You need to find a place with less protected land and fewer swamps.
Lemme see, now.
Jared asks ONE desperate question in his original post.
And, when I give him an answer, he ignores it.
"All hat, no cattle"
I think it is indeed safe to ignore him, and to continue other, more interesting and fruitful discussions.
Ed
richhotrainNow we need to find the space. We would need 43,610 square miles to complete our HO scale project. The state of Florida is just under 66,000 square miles, so we got the space. When do we start?
Jared the Artist First, when I started I wanted whatever I came up with to be at least twice the size of MW (I suppose it's my competitive nature). So off the top of my head I decieded I would fill a 300' x 600' room. I had all of this criteria that I needed to cover and fit in that space and the longer I worked on it the harder it was to make everything fit. Especially when I wanted to run mile long trains which are 60' long in Ho scale not counting power.
First, when I started I wanted whatever I came up with to be at least twice the size of MW (I suppose it's my competitive nature). So off the top of my head I decieded I would fill a 300' x 600' room. I had all of this criteria that I needed to cover and fit in that space and the longer I worked on it the harder it was to make everything fit. Especially when I wanted to run mile long trains which are 60' long in Ho scale not counting power.
I propose to replicate the entire lower 48 states in HO scale. That way, every piece of track in the Continental U.S. will be covered.
Let's look at some stats. The United States is an area of 3,794,100 square miles. That translates into 20,032,848,00 square feet. That further translates into 230,262,621 HO scale square feet.
Now, McCormick Place in downtown Chicago is 2,600,000 square feet, the largest exhibition facility in the world, comprised of 4 separate buildings. So, to get our needed 230 million HO scale square feet, we only need 100 McCormick Places, 400 separate buildings. So, for you skeptics out there, this could be done.
Now we need to find the space. We would need 43,610 square miles to complete our HO scale project. The state of Florida is just under 66,000 square miles, so we got the space. When do we start?
We've been ignoring something important: the vertical scale.
First, how much of the visual angle of field does he intend to capture for given scenes? In areas such as the Rockies or Cascades, or even in "Big Sky Country"this may be significant. That will be complicated by defining where the 'audience's' point(s) of view for looking at the scene would be, and what the 'scenery' around audience access would have to be to preserve the illusion of 'real scale' that is the author's limit on selective compression.
Second -- if this reproduces the true scale of North American railroading, it has to re-create the cumulative effect of scale grades, as well. That in turn implies that either large portions of the "layout" will be at higher elevation -- meaningfully higher elevation even with large vertical scale -- and at some point that's going to involve mezzanine construction in a larger, hurricane-proof in Orlando, building shell. That reduces the required 'land footprint' in any given phase of the project he starts building, but also opens up at least the possibility of alternative uses of space not actually occupied by the "experience". Or co-locating parts of the 'envelope' below or above other attractions to secure the advantage of large effective "floor area" without actually needing to own, or at least secure irrevocable right or title to, the full area of land required for final buildout.
This is similar in principle to railroad-museum construction, where a first principle is 'own your land outright' and a second, like unto the first, is 'own where you intend to grow'. Many organizations, having achieved the first, find themselves crippled either by neighbors' issues or by having nowhere to expand.
The construction method used for Wal-Marts offers both the necessary clear spans and the capability of free ceiling height to begin a version of this project with a 'reasonable' number of representative vignettes. If they are modular, he could move them if he wants to keep some similarity to American geography in how the 'site' will be navigated. But personally I don't think that is fully necessary; his idea is to recreate the visual scope of the country, not duplicate it at 1:87 (or portions at 1:160 or smaller).
Even typical large-grocery-store construction gives adequate space for mezzanines, so I don't see providing an envelope with a 'folded' footprint as showstopping in itself. With care some of the construction would have alternative uses were the attraction to 'fold' or become reduced in scope for some reason.
The other complicating factor is going to be insurance, both for the premises/operation and for what is supposed to be a potentially very large increase in the incidence and perhaps severity of bad weather (if the effects of 'global climate change' develop as many expect). Here the underwriters' perception, not any absolute form of common sense, would be the thing of importance, and ease and speed of reconstruction after potential damage or impairment, and some of the types of required insurance probably including some kind of business-interruption insurance, will become considerations.
kasskaboose I agree with Mobileman44 that there's not much to contribute here. Whether the OP is actually interested in a layout our merely wasting time (his and everyone else's) remains unclear. I wish the OP luck with whatever path he picks. Moderators: This thread has continued far too long without any sensible direction and I humbly request it gets closed.
I agree with Mobileman44 that there's not much to contribute here. Whether the OP is actually interested in a layout our merely wasting time (his and everyone else's) remains unclear. I wish the OP luck with whatever path he picks.
Moderators: This thread has continued far too long without any sensible direction and I humbly request it gets closed.
Second the motion.
Andy
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Milwaukee native modeling the Milwaukee Road in 1950's Milwaukee.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/196857529@N03/
There is so much that the Chicago borne "blunt and sarcastic and logical" side of my personality would love to contribute to this thread.
But, out of respect for the Forum and my ticker, I think it best to just watch and marvel from the sidelines - for surely some will happily take my place.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Jared the ArtistSo what I came up with is each city would be it's own building (unless someone can tell me how to cover a few square miles with a single roof).
So you really are talking about multiple square miles?
LegoLand Florida is less than 1/4 square mile.
Sea World Orlando and Splendid China are/was each less than 1/2 square mile.
The entire Universal Orlando Resort is less than one square mile.
Heck, Wet-N-Wild Orlando was only about 1/20 of a square mile, and that would have been enough space for an unimaginably large model railroad!
I do not have your vision, and I am not an artist. However, I do not see how any visitor could stay interested in a display that large.
In the space of Wet-N-Wild you could have built a G scale layout with the immenseness of the prototype... now that would really be something.
My background is that I'm an artist foremost. I spent 10 years in Hollywood acting and writing spec scripts so I'm familiar with developing a proposal and pitching to executives. I also do photography and I'm a musician (my weakest artistic expression). Besides that I've spent around 5 years in the construction industry framing large customs homes and in some cases help seeing the project through from design to completion. But my greatest gift is my creativity and ability to envision concepts and ideas that most don't (or won't). Hence why I started this project.
So you're right, I have some experience but I'm certainly not an expert in the fields many of you have mentioned are necessary. But wasn't it Henry Ford who said something like "I don't have the answers, but I'll find somone who does."
I'm the visionary. Once the vision is on paper I'll definately be putting a team together to move this forward as I obviously can't do it myself.
I remember visiting MW (Miniatur Wunderland) and loving it. But at the same time felt a bit frustrated as it was like they tried to cram too much into such a small area — everything needed more space (with maybe the exception of the airport) but there simply wasn't room for it. Nevertheless I'd go back and tour it again in a heartbeat.
It was there that I thought "I can come up with a better way to design and show you Las Vegas, or the Grand Canyon or any destination for that matter modeled in a way that would do it justice and be entertaining to the viewer — no disrespect to MW.
I modeled HO and N scale when I was a kid but I'm sure what I did was childs play compared to what you fellows here work on. I always wanted to create something huge and elaborate but of course lack of funds at a young age stopped that in a heartbeat.
Then covid shut down everything I did and wallah! I've got the time!
Now I guess I need to break that 3000+ hours down that I've spent so far.
First, when I started I wanted whatever I came up with to be at least twice the size of MW (I suppose it's my competitive nature). So off the top of my head I decieded I would fill a 300' x 600' room. I had all of this criteria that I needed to cover and fit in that space and the longer I worked on it the harder it was to make everything fit. Especially when I wanted to run mile long trains which are 60' long in Ho scale not counting power. So I finally said f*** it! and removed all limitations and just started drawing what I wanted.
Second, I wanted it to be real, modern and function like a real railroad as best it could from all aspects. So for example I wanted to run live coal loads. Ok, so I need a coal mine... *many hours on google search and google maps*
Black Thunder! It's huge, has massive walking draglines which would be fun to see modeled and actually operating and can do the volume I want. Done.
Now where is this coal going to go? *many hours of google searching and viewing on google maps* A generating plant...
WA Parish! Same reasons.
What about export? ... *more research*
Lamberts Point! Largest in the US, can handle the volume I want and is connected to the rest of Norfolk which I wanted to include because of the container port and Navy ship building. Done!
Oh wait! How will the trains get from Black Thunder to Lamberts Point? (I know the coal mines in the Virginia's and Kentucky are what actually serve Lamberts Point but bear with me).
Many, many, many more hours of research. I got it! Down UP's triple main in Nebraska, thru Santa Fe Junction in Kansas City, along the Missouri river and across the Mac Arthur bridge in St. Louis, thru the Willow Valley in Indiana, then across the C&O bridge in Cincy, stop at CSX's Russell yard to change power, then thru the New River Gorge having the highway bridge tower 10' above you, pass the cute train station in White Sulphur Springs, then interchange with NS in Lynchburg and on into Norfolk. And that's just ONE route.
Oh wait a minute! Coal is used to make steel... now I need some loads to head to a coking plant... *more research*
I think you get the picture by now... I wanted to cover every aspect of each industry served by rail. Coal mine --> Coke plant --> Steel mill --> Foundry --> Fabricator. But also the iron ore from Minnesota/Wisconsin and the limestone from Michigan. All of those locations needed scenic routes to their destination.
So as you can see how the hours added up when I'm litteraly following every major rail line from mine to mill searching for the most scenic spots that I can cut out and model.
Why? So many reasons.
A big one: WHY NOT? If it can be done AND provide and entertaining and engaging aspect, then I'll find a way where the money and time won't be an issue.
Also, I want to have an educational aspect to the park that would entice school groups to come. A more fun alternative to seeing how steel (or any product) is made and put to use, from raw materials to finished product. All the factories will have open roofs so you can see the layout and process that goes on on the inside.
Anyway, now that I have all of these locations there is no way this could ever possibly fit into a 300x600' building. So what I came up with is each city would be it's own building (unless someone can tell me how to cover a few square miles with a single roof). Then these large "hallways", for lack of a better word, will connect the cities with the scenic points like New River Gorge in WV.
Once I realized how big this was going to be I knew I had to expand the idea of just "ho scale trains across North America" and actually turn it into a Theme Park.
The Ho scale trains are on the inside, then outside will be a 1:8 scale network like I mentioned earlier to connect everything together and get you from one end of the park to the other.
The interior will be built in phases: two cities and a scenic passage at a time. ex. Portland to Spokane connected by the Columbia River gorge and Joso bridge over the Snake river, or Pittsburgh to Harrisburg, passing through Braddock, Johnstown, Horseshoe Curve and Altoona.
Once the first section is complete then we'd charge admission just like MW and slowly increase price as more and more is added, inside and outside.
Outside will also feature planes, trains, automobiles and ship exhibits (life-size and modeled) so there is more to the park than just an ho scale system on the inside and 1:8 scale system on the outside.
The park would never really become complete as there would always be something added or updated as technology changes. That's job security for the builders and new features/destinations to entice travelers to visit again.
Is the 3000 hours starting to make sense now? If not, then maybe I'm just an incredibly slow researcher lol...
Was this the place to ask a design question? Looking at it now, no. But I got the answers I needed and it started an interesting conversation and created an outlet for me to turn all of my thoughts and ideas into words. Many of the Entreprenuers I follow all preach "grind in silence". So I did for over a year until I felt it was time to open the door.
I apologize for the novel and if I still haven't answered your question/s, I'll try again next time. Third glass of wine is hitting me.
Thanks again for the comments (I still read them all) and your time in reading this. Always appreciated.
Jared
Track fiddler Ed I just had to stop in this thread and say Hello. Unless I'm missing things I don't feel like I've seen you post here in years. Good to hear from ya and I'm glad your well. Don't be a stranger and stop in more often P.S. Did you get any of that code 83 Platinum Rail yet? TF
I just had to stop in this thread and say Hello. Unless I'm missing things I don't feel like I've seen you post here in years. Good to hear from ya and I'm glad your well. Don't be a stranger and stop in more often
P.S. Did you get any of that code 83 Platinum Rail yet?
TF
Yes, TF, it's been awhile. It appears things have changed here, so I thought I'd come back. And I will indeed be around and about, assuming they stay that way. Thanks for saying hello.
Ah, the platinum rail. I'm planning on saving up for a nice big order, so I can get the quantity discount. The savings will, of course, be enormous.
7j43k Thank you, Douglas, for clearly explaining your position. Ed
Thank you, Douglas, for clearly explaining your position.
I don't really have a position on the matter.
This thread has taken on some strange vibes to it. Sort of a policing of the discussion when most of the material that was purposely included in the original post, and now repeated, seems like things that shouldn't be discussed.
A read it but don't talk about it vibe.
- Douglas
7j43k Doughless The way I read it is like me asking a model train forum how to build dove tail joints to assemble my benchwork. The fact that I'm using the dove tail benchwork for model trains and explain in three paragraphs the reason I'm doing it doesn't really make it a model train forum question. JMO. I think a more specific forum about digital reproductions and presentations would be a better resource for Jared. I have worked with Photoshop for over 13 years, both professionally and personally. From my knowledge and use of it, I felt justified in telling Jared that Photoshop would do the job for him. You think he should go elsewhere, and, in doing so, ignore my suggestion. One could then wonder if I made a mistake by offering it, just three posts back. Ed
Doughless The way I read it is like me asking a model train forum how to build dove tail joints to assemble my benchwork. The fact that I'm using the dove tail benchwork for model trains and explain in three paragraphs the reason I'm doing it doesn't really make it a model train forum question. JMO. I think a more specific forum about digital reproductions and presentations would be a better resource for Jared.
The way I read it is like me asking a model train forum how to build dove tail joints to assemble my benchwork. The fact that I'm using the dove tail benchwork for model trains and explain in three paragraphs the reason I'm doing it doesn't really make it a model train forum question. JMO.
I think a more specific forum about digital reproductions and presentations would be a better resource for Jared.
I have worked with Photoshop for over 13 years, both professionally and personally. From my knowledge and use of it, I felt justified in telling Jared that Photoshop would do the job for him.
You think he should go elsewhere, and, in doing so, ignore my suggestion. One could then wonder if I made a mistake by offering it, just three posts back.
Not at all. As I said, there are probably no more than 5% on the forum who could help. You could very well be one of the 5%. And maybe my number is too low. Well done.
I was responding to the notion that Jared seems fixed on discussing about 10% of the word count, and only about 10%, of his original post, where he seemed to repeat the other 90% a few posts above to apparently make a point.
I think its okay to discuss anything a person puts in a post. If they don't want to participate in that part of the discussion, that's okay too. And too bad if others do.