Overmod Bayfield Transfer Railway I am very, highly, EXTREMELY skeptical about the possibility of routinely running mile long HO scale trains reliably. There is nothing like doing to cure errant skepticism... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wevbi_zEmxc
Bayfield Transfer Railway I am very, highly, EXTREMELY skeptical about the possibility of routinely running mile long HO scale trains reliably.
There is nothing like doing to cure errant skepticism...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wevbi_zEmxc
Which has exactly zero to do with what I said.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
What I would REALLY like to see is the business plan that Miniatur Wunderland used to secure funding.
SeeYou190Walt Disney had one of the ultimate experiences, Alien Encounter, and Universal had the Back To The Future ride. Both of these had wait times of 4 hours plus because they were so good, but both have been replaced by even better rides now.
4 hours plus......Do folks actually wait in line for that long???
At a $116/day...and I spend 12 hrs @ WDW ...I would be paying them ~$39 just to wait for that one ride. That's just waaaay beyond my comprehension of fun.
Drop me off at Okefenokee Swamp or one of the freshwater springs with a canoe.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Bayfield Transfer RailwayFor that matter, at the Louvre there is an entire gallery of Renaissance life size Crucifixion paintings. Any one of them is a masterpiece, and the style contrasts are amazing. And after you've looked at about six or eight, you're done. And there are hundreds.
Well, that just about nails it for me.
Bayfield Transfer Railway What I would REALLY like to see is the business plan that Miniatur Wunderland used to secure funding.
Besides the 2M from the bank, I wonder how much of their own money was involved. If they'd run a disco for 8 years, they had to have turned a profit.Also, I had to laugh about the comments about the business plan. Here in the US it's "write a 500 page business plan, but you will live or die on your 1 page executive summary with three to five bullet points."
I'm a bit confused. I see the sarcasim but it's like something went missing. I did some rough calculations and the total distance that I plan on modeling from the most eastern point to the most western point is 3.6 miles. And from the southern most point being port of LA up to the northern most point of Prince Rupert would take 2.36 miles. So everything I've talked about modeling would easily fit in that area and take up just a tiny fraction of that space.
And that is the "if we can do everything" map which would take a minimum of 20 years to build? My point is I wanted the whole thing mapped out so if by the luck of God someone with basically unlimited resources with an insane passion for model trains said "Hey, I'll fund everything", we'd have the space and plan to do so from the get-go. Look at Disneyland now. They're maxed out. For them to expand further they'd have to start buying out neighboring factories.
I design and hope for the best but will of course plan for the worse.
For those who don't believe running 60' trains is possible (well of course not on 36in. curves), YouTube search "James Risner" and see what he's been able to do. 60' trains are chump change for him.
I get it though — my vision seems crazy stupid to most of you. And rightfully so as nothing of this magnitude has ever been done before. But what people say when they wanted to build the palms in Dubai?
"People are better off just seeing these locations in person. Why model them?" ... How many road trips would you have to take in order to visit the greatest scenic points throughout the USA and Canada? And the few hundreds of downtowns — large and small? And at what cost?
You've all had those conversations where you talk about visiting ___ and seeing ___ but rarely ever do because of time and distance. I'm a die hard traveler and at 33 I've already visited 33 countries so far, and yet, there is still so much more that I haven't seen but because of time, money and distance (and now covid -_-) it's so difficult to do so. What I liked about MW was that it gave me a taste of many locations, but I left wanting more so much more.
I'm simply designing that "more". You don't have the time and money to take 20-30 road trips across the country? Fine. Take one and see it all.
I need more wine...
Jared
How interesting. Eight pages and we haven't moved an inch.
One would have thought Jared would be seeking 'backers, finance and real estate' by now and worry about the minor details later.
I would love Jared to succeed, but will it?
To attract customers there needs to be an element of fun in the scheme. I do not see it.
It is also interesting that Jared has visited 33 countries and wants more.
I have visited 68 countries and seen many historical sites. Funny how I have vivid memories;
Sitting at a table outside a cafe in Crete and talking to a Canadian, Australian, a man from California and a young Greek lad.
Having a glass of sherry in a rural Spanish Taverna.
Walking down the High Street in Inverness middle of Winter. Walking past the riverside, the castle high on the left. Droplets of snow on the River Ness glinting like diamonds. Further along a path follows up river. A wooden bridge over a small stream. A small waterfall to the left within touching distance. It is icy cold as I touch the water. With my fingers I 'flick some water at you'.
Being in Panama City looking out at the vast Pacific Ocean. Dots of ships waiting to transit Panama Canal
Somehow Jared I feel you could not replicate that, but that is what I want.
Others want other things that will not (unfortunately) be at your 'Wonderland'.
I shall carry on doing my road trips and see things 1-1 Scale. It is much more fun.
David
To the world you are someone. To someone you are the world
I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought
Jared the Artist My point is I wanted the whole thing mapped out so if by the luck of God someone with basically unlimited resources with an insane passion for model trains said "Hey, I'll fund everything", we'd have the space and plan to do so from the get-go.
My point is I wanted the whole thing mapped out so if by the luck of God someone with basically unlimited resources with an insane passion for model trains said "Hey, I'll fund everything", we'd have the space and plan to do so from the get-go.
Rich
Alton Junction
Edited and changed previous post:
I still see a fundamental problem with the concept of charging somebody a fee for seeing ACCURATE 1:87 models of railroad scenes.
I think only model railroaders would really be interested in what's being offered here...accuracy of railroads and their ROWs.
1:87 model of the Golden Gate bridge, the Empire State Building, stuff like that, with trains included, would be interesting to a greater pool of the paying public.
Other model railroad displays, I think, are catered more to the whimsical. Designing cool scenes. Exaggerated land forms. Scenes that may be too physically challenging for real railroads to build and operate.
Maybe I'm wrong about that.
- Douglas
tstage4 hours plus......Do folks actually wait in line for that long?
Yes. My daughter and her fiance waited over 6 hours to ride the Millenium Falcon when it opened in Disney.
Alien Encounter was a masterpiece well worth the wait time when I saw it. It was one of the first attractions to use holographic technology, and it scared the living daylights out of all the children and most adults. It was brilliant.
I feel bad for the Disney employee that had to clean up all the messes from when the alien drooled on you from behind and then placed its hand on your shoulder.
I saw it before all the warning signs went up, and all the surprises were revealed, which made it even better. It was also the first attraction I saw that used sound effects so effectively.
It was worth 1/4 of the day and the full price of admission.
Alien Encounter replaced the aging Mission To Mars, it has now been replaced with Buzz Lightyear's 3D Alien Shooting Gallery, which is also worth a long wait and one of the most fun things you can do with your kids.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Bayfield Transfer RailwayWhich has exactly zero to do with what I said.
Jared the ArtistI did some rough calculations and the total distance that I plan on modeling from the most eastern point to the most western point is 3.6 miles. And from the southern most point being port of LA up to the northern most point of Prince Rupert would take 2.36 miles.
So, you are honestly talking about building an attraction that is 6.5 square miles? That is 5,440 acres.
You will need to buy at least 8 square miles of property to make this work, and you can forget about that anywhere in central Florida. You will need to start buying Orange Groves in the Southern part of the state.
The Walt Disney Magic Kingdom in Orlando, which opened in 1971 and is now part of The Walt Disney World Resort, is only 107 acres. It requires effort for most people to walk it in a day. Doing a "lap" around the park is quite a hike.
That 107 acres includes Space Moutain, Main Street USA, The Hall of the Presidents, The Haunted Mansion, Big Thunder Mountain Railroad, Splash Mountain, etc, etc, etc...
Sure, the entire property is 40 square miles, but even now Reedy Creek is still mostly undeveloped.
The size of your ambition makes it "unvisitable" by anyone looking to see an attraction. It is just too big, and will not be enjoyable.
I llike your idea, but I think you need to do a lot more research into what makes a popular attraction, and scale it down, tremendously, from there.
In my opinion, anything larger than a Super-Wal-Mart would not be achievable.
SeeYou190 The Walt Disney Magic Kingdom . . . Doing a "lap" around the park is quite a hike.
The Walt Disney Magic Kingdom . . . Doing a "lap" around the park is quite a hike.
And Walt addressed that issue very nicely by including a 3-foot gauge steam locomotive and train . . . always the first ride I go on to get a good look-see of what's what.
LINK to SNSR Blog
ROBERT PETRICKAnd Walt addressed that issue very nicely by including a 3-foot gauge steam locomotive and train.
Walt Disney World and Busch Gardens both feature live steam trains around the parks, and are wonderful rides.
The sounds of the train whistles add something to both parks. Nothing sounds like a real steam whistle.
I love them both.
Doughless Maybe I'm wrong about that.
No, you're not. No one, and I mean literally zero humans, is going to spend tme and money to look at hundreds and hundreds of feet of nothing. There's vast tracts of empty, boring nothing that is going to consume enormous construction costs for people to hurry by as fast as they can. It is one thing to see, say, the Hell Gate Bridge in full size and see how it dwarfs YOU even as it is a small model of what it really is. It is another to see endless rural nothings.
SeeYou190 tstage 4 hours plus......Do folks actually wait in line for that long? Yes. My daughter and her fiance waited over 6 hours to ride the Millenium Falcon when it opened in Disney. Alien Encounter was a masterpiece well worth the wait time when I saw it. It was one of the first attractions to use holographic technology, and it scared the living daylights out of all the children and most adults. It was brilliant. I feel bad for the Disney employee that had to clean up all the messes from when the alien drooled on you from behind and then placed its hand on your shoulder. I saw it before all the warning signs went up, and all the surprises were revealed, which made it even better. It was also the first attraction I saw that used sound effects so effectively. It was worth 1/4 of the day and the full price of admission. Alien Encounter replaced the aging Mission To Mars, it has now been replaced with Buzz Lightyear's 3D Alien Shooting Gallery, which is also worth a long wait and one of the most fun things you can do with your kids. -Kevin
tstage 4 hours plus......Do folks actually wait in line for that long?
Thanks for the explanation, Kevin. Yep, that pretty much confirms that WDW is still not a place I would enjoy spending my time or my money. But...I'm glad others can enjoy it and do.
Tom
No doubt DW and Epcot do everything top notch from my numorous visits.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Imagine running realistic operations and interchanging cars coast to coast on such a huge railroad!
"No one realizes how beautiful it is to travel until he comes home and rests his head on his old, familiar pillow." -Lin Yutang
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richhotrainThink of it in simpler terms. Let's say that the area in question is 87 square miles (8.7 miles x 10.0 miles, for example). In HO scale that would be 1 square mile (87 divided by 87).
?
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Six square miles? Sounds like you need a train for the visitors .
I like the "Walmart" size idea. And to attract the people in, you will need to show some really nice models to get the Awe. By definition, that will require a lot of effort.
So good luck with that.
Simon
deleted
a scale linear mile is 5280 / 87 = ~61ft
how many square ft in a square mi 27,878,400(5280^2).
how many square ft in a HO scale square mile ~3683 (~61^2)
what do you get if you divide square mi by square scale mi?
87*87 is 7569
maybe Jared is a billionare ... or knows one. let him dream
I can't believe that, more than a fifth of the way through the 21st Century, there are august and skilled model railroaders who don't understand scaling laws.
Area is 2D; volume 3D. Apply a couple of recent 'arguments' to the scale size, or proportional weight, of a given piece of rolling stock. See if the results make sense in your experience of modeling. Govern the discussion here, such as it is, accordingly...
OvermodI can't believe that, more than a fifth of the way through the 21st Century, there are august and skilled model railroaders who don't understand scaling laws.
2D ir 3D scaling isn't something most of us need to be concerned with to build a beautiful model or layout.
We just buy 1:87 (or 1:160, or other) models, and have fun!
snjroy I like the "Walmart" size idea.
I like the "Walmart" size idea.
You touch on a very important topic that could actually make this project work.
Walmart is sitting on hundreds of properties all over the country that would be ideal for this venture; well, not exactly this venture as imagined and described, but a scaled down (sorry, couldn't resist) version that could actually be constructed and still meet the criteria of dwarfing Miniatur Wunderland.
There are many (former) Walmarts that have been closed when a Super Center Walmart was constructed down the road, and many Super Centers that were abandoned to make way for Super Duper Centers. Well-constructed buildings certified for human occupancy of between 100,000 square feet up to about 200,000 square feet. Full utilities and services; adequate parking; zoning and development tax issues resolved; highway access on all fronts; high ceilings, wide open spans, plenty of ingress and egress doors (safety), fire supression and alert systems, and plenty of loading docks.
Walmart would never sell or lease these properties to any of their competitors in a million years, so they sit empty and abandoned while blight springs up and grows throughout the entire neighborhood. And here's where the city (or other taxing authority) steps in with an interest. In general, they don't like blighted neighborhoods and abandoned buildings that serve as magnets for skateboarders and grafitti artists to hang out with the winos and druggies. So, there might be grants, tax-abatements, and other incentives for some enlightened developer to come in and pick up the slack.
A good idea that I've been reluctant to mention because I didn't want to do work for the OP without getting paid or without a MOU or contract in place.
Carry on.
ROBERT PETRICKA good idea that I've been reluctant to mention because I didn't want to do work for the OP without getting paid or without a MOU or contract in place
Very good point. There have been some good ideas here, and on the other foot, avoidance of bad ideas. All free.
Almost time for OP to pay up. Or the ideas should shut down.
Since he is proposing a business venture, some of the discussion might cross forum rules.
ROBERT PETRICKThey sit empty and abandoned while blight springs up and grows throughout the entire neighborhood.
One old Wal-Mart down here was converted to a car museum, and another became a school.
Most of them are just ruining the area where they rot away.
All of the old K-Marts down here have been successfully repurposed. One of these became a school also.
The Lee County School Board administration is located in a repurposed abandon mall. Now that I think about it, I am seeing a pattern here.
ROBERT PETRICK snjroy I like the "Walmart" size idea. You touch on a very important topic that could actually make this project work. Walmart is sitting on hundreds of properties all over the country that would be ideal for this venture; well, not exactly this venture as imagined and described, but a scaled down (sorry, couldn't resist) version that could actually be constructed and still meet the criteria of dwarfing Miniatur Wunderland. There are many (former) Walmarts that have been closed when a Super Center Walmart was constructed down the road, and many Super Centers that were abandoned to make way for Super Duper Centers. Well-constructed buildings certified for human occupancy of between 100,000 square feet up to about 200,000 square feet. Full utilities and services; adequate parking; zoning and development tax issues resolved; highway access on all fronts; high ceilings, wide open spans, plenty of ingress and egress doors (safety), fire supression and alert systems, and plenty of loading docks. Walmart would never sell or lease these properties to any of their competitors in a million years, so they sit empty and abandoned while blight springs up and grows throughout the entire neighborhood. And here's where the city (or other taxing authority) steps in with an interest. In general, they don't like blighted neighborhoods and abandoned buildings that serve as magnets for skateboarders and grafitti artists to hang out with the winos and druggies. So, there might be grants, tax-abatements, and other incentives for some enlightened developer to come in and pick up the slack. A good idea that I've been reluctant to mention because I didn't want to do work for the OP without getting paid or without a MOU or contract in place. Carry on.
This is interesting. There is not one abandoned Walmart that I know of in this region?
There are malls with empty anchor department stores, but Walmart has never just moved down the street to build the bigger store here.
And the one time I know of when it was considered, The county would not even consider the idea without a plan for the old store.......
And we are littered with Walmarts, I can leave my house and make a one hour loop and hit 4 or 5 easy. Give me 20 more minutes and I can hit 3 more and be back home.
Yes, as soon as I get a check for my design retainer, and you get one for the drafting, you and I will get started on this.
Sheldon
I popped in to see what the commotion was about, I started reading and started laughing. I mean really laughing! Quite literally rolling on the floor. From a stupendously large layout, to HOA's and it just kept getting better. A Walmart full of trains!? I'm still wheezing at that one! Cool idea nonetheless. Can't hurt to dream! Crazy the stuff that comes up on cs.trains.com!
P.S. I'd love to have our artist friend show us some of his work, model railroading related or otherwise. Yet, I have this nagging feeling that there is going to be a YouTube troll video regarding this thread shortly. An eternal pessimist, I know, I know. Don't hate too much please. Im in such a good mood!
JJF
Prototypically modeling the Great Northern in Minnesota with just a hint of freelancing.
Yesterday is History.
Tomorrow is a Mystery.
But today is a Gift, that is why it is called the Present.