I worked on the control panel for the turntable and roundhouse tracks. I want to be able to control track power to each track around the turntable/roundhouse because when you have many sound equipped locomotives it's nice to be able to cut the track power to avoid a cacophony of locomotive idling sounds and power consumption.I used my photo printer to print the control panel on lustre paper for the turntable/roundhouse track. Each track coming off the turntable (except for the 3 main inbound/outbound tracks (1-3)) have toggle switches to control track power. There are 17 tracks total (4 garden tracks (4-7), 12 roundhouse tracks (8-19), and 1 service building track(20)).After installing the 17 toggle switches and Walthers turntable control unit.Wiring the 17 track power switches. Because of the relatively long "feeder" runs, I used 18ga wire to run from the track power bus to the toggle switches and then 18ga back to the red track power feeder bus bars.Finishing up the basic build of the Vector Cut "Country Radio Station" kit. I have created it as KREW - The Wrecking Krew - Pirate Radio.Rear view - you can see the City Classics Venetian blinds installed in the windows.
Modeling an HO gauge freelance version of the Union Pacific Oregon Short Line and the Utah Railway around 1957 in a world where Pirates from the Great Salt Lake founded Ogden, UT.
- Photo album of layout construction -
ATLANTIC CENTRAL rrebell Not everything in silicon valley is expencive, but housing can be. Still deals like the one I got, year before last. Bought a large manufactured home close to everything with a yard in a park with a very low ground rent (they have rent control where i moved and mobile home park zoning so it is not like most other places where the owner of the land can do something else) did this because when I crunched the numbers it was much cheaper and I wanted alot of dry powder for the next downturn and it was a new home with copper plumbing, new high end appliances (except stove, weird). Guess I got it because the last owner got in a cash crunch as they moved to Texas (another tech area) and the place was not moving being on the high end. Some of my neighbors are here for the same reason of keeping powder dry. Oh and since ity will be asked, I paid $265,000 and accross the street homes sell for $1,000,000 plus and HOA fees for a house, townhouse are around $800,000. Nothing against manufactured housing, but I have two questions, how much land, how many sq ft of house? Size drives prices here more than location, bigger cost more..... Our new place has 2600 sq ft of finished living space 1400 sq ft of unfinished basement, attached two car garage, 2.3 acres. I will be building an additional garage, likely 1,000 sq ft. The big 1901 Queen Anne has 4,000 sq ft finished, 900 sq ft covered porch, 450 sq ft rear deck w/gazebo and hot tub, 1500 sq ft unfinished basement, 2000 sq ft garage/out building, 20 x 50 concrete pool on just one acre. Sheldon
rrebell Not everything in silicon valley is expencive, but housing can be. Still deals like the one I got, year before last. Bought a large manufactured home close to everything with a yard in a park with a very low ground rent (they have rent control where i moved and mobile home park zoning so it is not like most other places where the owner of the land can do something else) did this because when I crunched the numbers it was much cheaper and I wanted alot of dry powder for the next downturn and it was a new home with copper plumbing, new high end appliances (except stove, weird). Guess I got it because the last owner got in a cash crunch as they moved to Texas (another tech area) and the place was not moving being on the high end. Some of my neighbors are here for the same reason of keeping powder dry. Oh and since ity will be asked, I paid $265,000 and accross the street homes sell for $1,000,000 plus and HOA fees for a house, townhouse are around $800,000.
Not everything in silicon valley is expencive, but housing can be. Still deals like the one I got, year before last. Bought a large manufactured home close to everything with a yard in a park with a very low ground rent (they have rent control where i moved and mobile home park zoning so it is not like most other places where the owner of the land can do something else) did this because when I crunched the numbers it was much cheaper and I wanted alot of dry powder for the next downturn and it was a new home with copper plumbing, new high end appliances (except stove, weird). Guess I got it because the last owner got in a cash crunch as they moved to Texas (another tech area) and the place was not moving being on the high end. Some of my neighbors are here for the same reason of keeping powder dry. Oh and since ity will be asked, I paid $265,000 and accross the street homes sell for $1,000,000 plus and HOA fees for a house, townhouse are around $800,000.
Nothing against manufactured housing, but I have two questions, how much land, how many sq ft of house?
Size drives prices here more than location, bigger cost more.....
Our new place has 2600 sq ft of finished living space 1400 sq ft of unfinished basement, attached two car garage, 2.3 acres. I will be building an additional garage, likely 1,000 sq ft.
The big 1901 Queen Anne has 4,000 sq ft finished, 900 sq ft covered porch, 450 sq ft rear deck w/gazebo and hot tub, 1500 sq ft unfinished basement, 2000 sq ft garage/out building, 20 x 50 concrete pool on just one acre.
Sheldon
Onewolf rrebell ATLANTIC CENTRAL rrebell Out in california, you get tax increased imediatly on final inspection, 1% of permit added and compounded yearly. At least out here you know within reason what your property taxes are each year, not like when I was in Baltimore and they just up and doubled it one year because neighorhood improved, thats a maybe on neghborhood improved as my property was on the edge but my address was bulked into zip. Again, that no longer happens here. Reassement increases are phased in and limited to about 12% increase for owner occupied homes no matter what your neighbors house sells for. If we were really smart as a society we would replace the value based property tax with the ideas of Henry George - but that's a topic for a different forum..... But seriously, you folks in California are in your own world, I just bought a really nice 2,200 sq ft house on 2.5 acres for $375,000 - in the bay area what would that cost? and what would the taxes be? My taxes are $3,000. Maybe that's why I can aford a basement full of trains? Sheldon $3,750 plus any local taxes and can only go up 2% per year but no one gets more than 1%. One more derail.... You forgot Sheldon's question about what his property would cost in the Bay area? My $500K property near Orlando would cost $4-$5 million to reproduce near Silicon Valley. I've looked. I stayed in Florida. :)
rrebell ATLANTIC CENTRAL rrebell Out in california, you get tax increased imediatly on final inspection, 1% of permit added and compounded yearly. At least out here you know within reason what your property taxes are each year, not like when I was in Baltimore and they just up and doubled it one year because neighorhood improved, thats a maybe on neghborhood improved as my property was on the edge but my address was bulked into zip. Again, that no longer happens here. Reassement increases are phased in and limited to about 12% increase for owner occupied homes no matter what your neighbors house sells for. If we were really smart as a society we would replace the value based property tax with the ideas of Henry George - but that's a topic for a different forum..... But seriously, you folks in California are in your own world, I just bought a really nice 2,200 sq ft house on 2.5 acres for $375,000 - in the bay area what would that cost? and what would the taxes be? My taxes are $3,000. Maybe that's why I can aford a basement full of trains? Sheldon $3,750 plus any local taxes and can only go up 2% per year but no one gets more than 1%.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL rrebell Out in california, you get tax increased imediatly on final inspection, 1% of permit added and compounded yearly. At least out here you know within reason what your property taxes are each year, not like when I was in Baltimore and they just up and doubled it one year because neighorhood improved, thats a maybe on neghborhood improved as my property was on the edge but my address was bulked into zip. Again, that no longer happens here. Reassement increases are phased in and limited to about 12% increase for owner occupied homes no matter what your neighbors house sells for. If we were really smart as a society we would replace the value based property tax with the ideas of Henry George - but that's a topic for a different forum..... But seriously, you folks in California are in your own world, I just bought a really nice 2,200 sq ft house on 2.5 acres for $375,000 - in the bay area what would that cost? and what would the taxes be? My taxes are $3,000. Maybe that's why I can aford a basement full of trains? Sheldon
rrebell Out in california, you get tax increased imediatly on final inspection, 1% of permit added and compounded yearly. At least out here you know within reason what your property taxes are each year, not like when I was in Baltimore and they just up and doubled it one year because neighorhood improved, thats a maybe on neghborhood improved as my property was on the edge but my address was bulked into zip.
Out in california, you get tax increased imediatly on final inspection, 1% of permit added and compounded yearly. At least out here you know within reason what your property taxes are each year, not like when I was in Baltimore and they just up and doubled it one year because neighorhood improved, thats a maybe on neghborhood improved as my property was on the edge but my address was bulked into zip.
Again, that no longer happens here. Reassement increases are phased in and limited to about 12% increase for owner occupied homes no matter what your neighbors house sells for.
If we were really smart as a society we would replace the value based property tax with the ideas of Henry George - but that's a topic for a different forum.....
But seriously, you folks in California are in your own world, I just bought a really nice 2,200 sq ft house on 2.5 acres for $375,000 - in the bay area what would that cost? and what would the taxes be? My taxes are $3,000.
Maybe that's why I can aford a basement full of trains?
$3,750 plus any local taxes and can only go up 2% per year but no one gets more than 1%.
One more derail....
You forgot Sheldon's question about what his property would cost in the Bay area? My $500K property near Orlando would cost $4-$5 million to reproduce near Silicon Valley. I've looked. I stayed in Florida. :)
Yes, so my $375,000 spot here in Maryland would likely be over 3.5 million, with property taxes of $35,000.
Or, the $750,000 1901 Queen Anne we just moved out of and will be selling soon would be worth what? 7 or 8 million? With $75,000 in taxes? Our taxes on that property are only $4,000. It seems unlikely that wages/income for everyone in the bay area or Southern CA are equally inflated.
So I will happily stay here where my money buys a lot more. The cost of living here is not the cheapest, but far from the highest.
We only paid $167,000 for the Queen Anne in 1995, invested about $300,000 in restoring it, had a blast living there, time now to cash out and have different adventure. That property is debt free, as is our new spot.
Yes, if I could have found some very fine tan sand it would have been more better.
rrebell Now back to the subject in hand. Noticed white sand used, is that common for where this layout is located, out here it is more tan colored.
Now back to the subject in hand. Noticed white sand used, is that common for where this layout is located, out here it is more tan colored.
riogrande5761 Nice poster "smooth as silk" oh la la! Pretty racy for the times back then eh?
OnewolfThe longer commute to work has also cut down some on my layout time
Welcome to my world. Between my long commute, house renovations and now doing most of the basement finishing myself (and wife helping) I have no layout time for the past year +.
Great to see your progress back in full swing. Nice poster "smooth as silk" oh la la! Pretty racy for the times back then eh?
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Onewolf, you have done an amazing amount of work since you posted previously! I have to admit that when I first saw the sheer size of your layout I was concerned about how long it would take to populate the many scenes. I needn't have worried. You are a prolific and excellent modeller!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Nice ! Very nice! I used the same "sand" technique for a unit train of raw frac sand. I can remove the stryrofoam "sand blocks" from the hopper cars, for running empties.
Excellent work!
Mike.
My You Tube
I'm glad you're finally back. Something was missing...
Michael
The Breitenbach - Rosenheim Railroad V3
I resumed work on the layout in late December after taking a break as I "came up to speed" in my new job that started in July. It was a major change after working 30+ years in the commercial Enterprise software arena to move to the DOD simulation/modeling world with completely new tech stacks. The longer commute to work has also cut down some on my layout time (and website updating time).
So with that said, here's some of the progress I've made since the last update....
Working on positioning the Walthers Machine Shop and Railroad Shops (cardboard cutout) near the turntable After building and placing the Walthers 'Railroad Shops' building.Testing placement of the Walthers Coal Tower and dump houseAfter installing detailed parts and basic weathering.Position of coal tower and cinder/ash hoist relative to turntable/roundhouse.Delivering coal for the coal towerBasic structures for sand drying house and sand bin completedFiguring out how to make the sand pile....Covered foam with white latex caulkTwo coats of latex flat paintHeavy coat of latex paint and immediately pour sand onto wet paint....After dryingOn the layout (with the Tichy water tower as well)Starting the Walthers "Car Shop" kitAfter spray painting the walls, brush painting the window sills and steel beams above doors. The right wall has been mortared using Roberts Brick Mortar.After installing the windows, doors, and weathering.Placed on layoutWorking on the Walthers Ash/Cinder Pit/Hoist kitI pulled up one of the existing track leads into the turntable to install the ash/cinder pit and then cut out the 1/2" homasote and 5/8" plywood base to install the pit.Starting to work on the Walthers Ice House and Platform (2)I have started building the Vector Cut "Country Radio Station" kit. My radio station is going to be "KREW - The Wrecking Crew - Pirate Radio".
Some of the reasons I like modeling the Union Pacific:Installing track for the lower end service terminal of the designated helper district for the climb from the middle level to the upper level
house like that in my old neighborhood, say $2,400,000.00. New neighborhood $850,000.00. Taxes are 1% plus local stuff.
riogrande5761 Doughless Here in suburbia, where I think Jim also resides, you have to get a permit to convert studded unfinished space into finished drywall space, as the local government assumes it will now be living space. In my old suburban locale, once you decided to convert the basement to living space, you HAD to install an outlet a minimum of every 12 linear feet of finished wall as to prevent the use of extension cords everywhere. Yes, an inspection is required prior to drywall to make sure the work is done up to professional sandards, but the homeowner can do it themselves if they have the skill/knowledge. Getting the permit also allows real estate sales agents to officially increase the square footage of the house, whereas its generally illegal to include unpermitted space in the listing's square footage. It generally goes by tax records. Of course, the permit allows the government to know you've just increased the square footage, increased the value, which provides a reason to increase your real estate taxes. So there's that angle. And around my particular area of yuppyville, quite a few people skip the permit process and finish their basements themselves to avoid the increase in assessed value a permit would reveal. Doughless is spot on in everything he said. I guess I could try doing it all under the table but I risk problems later if I did and buyers walking away. By getting a permit and having passed the inspection, future buyers have a least some modicum of confidence that the basement framing (done by the previous owner), plumbing, electrical, mechanical, fire safety, etc is completed to some level of standard and been inspected and approved. My wife and I house hunted in a range areas in Maryland and we're very disappointed with what we saw and did not like it at all. I've lived all over the country (TX, MA, IN, S.CA, N.CA, upstate NY, VA etc) and have some means of comparison. The apparent lack of controls in Maryland mentioned here help to explain what Ive observed and likely a lower standard of code enforcement means less confidence in what you buy. When you buy a house, could be dodgy work done on it. Obviously there is no 100% guarantee anywhere but if MD is that slack, not good.
Doughless Here in suburbia, where I think Jim also resides, you have to get a permit to convert studded unfinished space into finished drywall space, as the local government assumes it will now be living space. In my old suburban locale, once you decided to convert the basement to living space, you HAD to install an outlet a minimum of every 12 linear feet of finished wall as to prevent the use of extension cords everywhere. Yes, an inspection is required prior to drywall to make sure the work is done up to professional sandards, but the homeowner can do it themselves if they have the skill/knowledge. Getting the permit also allows real estate sales agents to officially increase the square footage of the house, whereas its generally illegal to include unpermitted space in the listing's square footage. It generally goes by tax records. Of course, the permit allows the government to know you've just increased the square footage, increased the value, which provides a reason to increase your real estate taxes. So there's that angle. And around my particular area of yuppyville, quite a few people skip the permit process and finish their basements themselves to avoid the increase in assessed value a permit would reveal.
Yes, an inspection is required prior to drywall to make sure the work is done up to professional sandards, but the homeowner can do it themselves if they have the skill/knowledge.
Getting the permit also allows real estate sales agents to officially increase the square footage of the house, whereas its generally illegal to include unpermitted space in the listing's square footage. It generally goes by tax records.
Of course, the permit allows the government to know you've just increased the square footage, increased the value, which provides a reason to increase your real estate taxes. So there's that angle. And around my particular area of yuppyville, quite a few people skip the permit process and finish their basements themselves to avoid the increase in assessed value a permit would reveal.
Doughless is spot on in everything he said. I guess I could try doing it all under the table but I risk problems later if I did and buyers walking away. By getting a permit and having passed the inspection, future buyers have a least some modicum of confidence that the basement framing (done by the previous owner), plumbing, electrical, mechanical, fire safety, etc is completed to some level of standard and been inspected and approved.
My wife and I house hunted in a range areas in Maryland and we're very disappointed with what we saw and did not like it at all. I've lived all over the country (TX, MA, IN, S.CA, N.CA, upstate NY, VA etc) and have some means of comparison.
The apparent lack of controls in Maryland mentioned here help to explain what Ive observed and likely a lower standard of code enforcement means less confidence in what you buy. When you buy a house, could be dodgy work done on it. Obviously there is no 100% guarantee anywhere but if MD is that slack, not good.
I understand, and in many ways I agree. My wife and I just bought our new to us retirement home after a long, careful search. We saw a lot of junk - old and new......
The home we selected was built in 1964, added on to in the late 1970's.
In my opinion it is way better constructed than most homes build in the last 30 years - with or without possible sub-standard "side work" remodeling.
As a construction professional who specializes in older/historic properties, and who has very high personal standards of quality, I have little use for cheap modern materials like vinyl siding and hollow cardboard doors - I have a low tollerance for cheap shoddy work, inspected or not, and I have little respect for government regulations/enforcement not based in common sense.
Sure, lots of shoddy work gets done without permits, and lots of shoddy work gets done with them........
Property taxes here are based on appraisals that are only reviewed every three years, and increases are limited by law on owner occupied properties. So permits for construction work have only a minimal effect on your taxes.
Repairs and minor upgrades are not considered "increases" in property value, and as explained before, repairs do not generally require permits - even fairly major ones.
Our county, and many others in Maryland, are just beginning to keep the kind of records, and provide access to those records, that would provide the protection you are suggesting.
So that really is a non existant situation here. The county can tell me when my well was drilled or when my septic system was repaired, that's about it. Any details about the original construction of this house, or it's 1970's add ons, is not to be found in any government office - so no Real Estate agent is going to get in trouble for something that cannot be proven either way.
And, I would say that where we live, there are still way more houses over 50 years old than ones less than 50 years old - the world was different 50 or 100 years ago......remember, the house we are leaving just a few miles away was built in 1901.......
All that being said, you think its bad here? Go to rural PA, or WV - some areas you can still build a house with just a septic and electrical permit...........
PS - disclaimer - for the record, I am not the sort of person who would ever choose to live in some neatly manicured, carefully regulated, busy body HOA, carefully planned, cookie cutter sub-division - and my perspective on this topic is colored accordingly.......
I lived in maryland and everything is county by county, just as out here in SF bay area. Citys have their own rules that sometimes have nothing to do with the national, not as likely in smaller venues. I was there when Romex first came into common use. This part of thread got me to look up stuff, never knew that there was asbestos in some old wiring and that knob and tube was still allowed in NY untill 1975. As to hyjacking thread, onewolf himself said he is only starting to get back to the layout, look at this part of thread as good information till he starts posting regular again.
DoughlessHere in suburbia, where I think Jim also resides, you have to get a permit to convert studded unfinished space into finished drywall space, as the local government assumes it will now be living space. In my old suburban locale, once you decided to convert the basement to living space, you HAD to install an outlet a minimum of every 12 linear feet of finished wall as to prevent the use of extension cords everywhere. Yes, an inspection is required prior to drywall to make sure the work is done up to professional sandards, but the homeowner can do it themselves if they have the skill/knowledge. Getting the permit also allows real estate sales agents to officially increase the square footage of the house, whereas its generally illegal to include unpermitted space in the listing's square footage. It generally goes by tax records. Of course, the permit allows the government to know you've just increased the square footage, increased the value, which provides a reason to increase your real estate taxes. So there's that angle. And around my particular area of yuppyville, quite a few people skip the permit process and finish their basements themselves to avoid the increase in assessed value a permit would reveal.
7j43k ATLANTIC CENTRAL Why was a service conduit that shallow? Not allowed here, in or out of conduit. Who said it was shallow? It was a commercial storefront. The guys were earthquaking the building, and they were "doin' stuff" to the foundation. My recollection was that the pipe was about 4-5' below the floor/sidewalk. The lad was working in a fairly deep hole, to be that far down. It's of interest that he didn't notice anything until he'd killed at least half the building. But when you're in a hole with a jack hammer, I guess you might be missing some subtle hints of trouble. Here (SF Bay Area), all above-ground service conductors must be in rigid conduit (steel or aluminum). It's been that way since about when knob-and-tube stopped. Thus I've never seen SE used. PVC can be used underground, but you have to use a wide sweep in rigid steel to come up. They require such big pipe for underground service that no one would want to do the whole run in steel. Ed
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Why was a service conduit that shallow? Not allowed here, in or out of conduit.
Why was a service conduit that shallow? Not allowed here, in or out of conduit.
Who said it was shallow?
It was a commercial storefront. The guys were earthquaking the building, and they were "doin' stuff" to the foundation. My recollection was that the pipe was about 4-5' below the floor/sidewalk. The lad was working in a fairly deep hole, to be that far down. It's of interest that he didn't notice anything until he'd killed at least half the building. But when you're in a hole with a jack hammer, I guess you might be missing some subtle hints of trouble.
Here (SF Bay Area), all above-ground service conductors must be in rigid conduit (steel or aluminum). It's been that way since about when knob-and-tube stopped. Thus I've never seen SE used.
PVC can be used underground, but you have to use a wide sweep in rigid steel to come up. They require such big pipe for underground service that no one would want to do the whole run in steel.
Ed
OK, we put commercial services in city streets in concrete duct banks here. I've wired buildings in downtown Baltimore, steel mills, pumping stations, factories, etc.
But earthquakes and wildfires are not much of a threat here, but snow and ice is. So I'm very happy my main disconnect is indoors. And natural gas powers my standby generator - big enough to run the whole house.
We are worlds apart...........
ROBERT PETRICK Onewolf has a teriffic layout going on and a teriffic online chronicle to document the work. All this stuff about conduit and breaker boxes and pinheaded local inspectors and whatnot is very beguiling, but I'd hate to see this thread devolve into a thread about home improvement. Robert
Onewolf has a teriffic layout going on and a teriffic online chronicle to document the work. All this stuff about conduit and breaker boxes and pinheaded local inspectors and whatnot is very beguiling, but I'd hate to see this thread devolve into a thread about home improvement.
Robert
Robert, Onewolf himself has commented on this, who are you to be his thread police?
It's called conversation, and it will get back to his layout soon enough.
I too am starting a new layout, and have already started a thread about my design process and goals which I believe you have commented on.
Trust me, I will, and have already, let that conversation go where it likes. I will steer it back to my progress when the time is right.
And I'm sure Onewolf is a big boy who can steer this thread, and I will respect any wishes he expresses.
I agree with you, Robert. Let the electrical experts argue about this somewhere else.
I can't wait until Mr. Onewolf startes his scenery!
LINK to SNSR Blog
7j43k I prefer to install main disconnects (in single family buildings) on the outside. One reason is for the fire department, which can be stymied by the concept of pulling a meter out (which does, admittedly, leave two energized meter jaws exposed during a rather frantic time). The other is that the serving utility in this area will require rigid steel conduit up to the main breaker, wherever it is. Their view seems to be that the conductors are much more dangerous before the main breaker than after it. As an example, I repaired a job where one of the lads ran a jack hammer bit through the underground service conduit. Since there was no real circuit breaker, the fault was cleared by vaporizing some rather large copper wire and the bit. Ed
I prefer to install main disconnects (in single family buildings) on the outside.
One reason is for the fire department, which can be stymied by the concept of pulling a meter out (which does, admittedly, leave two energized meter jaws exposed during a rather frantic time).
The other is that the serving utility in this area will require rigid steel conduit up to the main breaker, wherever it is. Their view seems to be that the conductors are much more dangerous before the main breaker than after it.
As an example, I repaired a job where one of the lads ran a jack hammer bit through the underground service conduit. Since there was no real circuit breaker, the fault was cleared by vaporizing some rather large copper wire and the bit.
Well none of that is the case on residential structures here in the Mid Atlantic. The utility here has a different view.
Indoor main breaker load centers are the prefered method. Underground services are fed with direct burial cable, protected in PVC between grade and the meter can.
SE cable from meter can into structure to panel, no conduit required.
Many older homes still overhead fed, SE cable down the house from weatherhead, into meter, then into structure. They do prefer minimum SE cable inside on the unfused side. We still have lots of overhead distribution.
My father was, and my son is a fire fighter. They seldom pull meters here........they call the utility, they cut the wires at the pole or pull the transformer tap on underground feeds.
Winter weather is a major factor in making outdoor main breakers undesirable here........and in many cases unsafe as it could prevent access in bad weather.
Agreed, I don't begin to understand the location choices in this case?
OnewolfThe main power feed cutoff/breaker box was failed because the main breaker handle was 6'7.5" above the ground and the building code limit was 6'7".
2017 (and earlier) NEC: 404.8 (A)
"Location. All switches and circuit breakers used as switches shall be located so that they may be operated from a readily accessible place. They shall be installed such that the center of the grip of the operating handle of the switch or circuit breaker, when in its highest position, is not more than 2.0 m (6 ft 7 in.) above the floor or working platform."
I am inclined to think that the original height, when the roadway was 8" higher, was still too high. It would have been legal, but I would never had installed one at that height UNLESS there was an incredible pressing need.