DMUinCT,
Here are my thoughts on the scale Atlantic and Pacific. Northwoods may have some additional thoughts on the subject.
The biggest problem is diecast swell which results in all sorts of odd warping. I would recommend taking a ruler with you when looking at one of these engines. You will have to check it from the top and the bottom and both sides looking for bowing either up or down or from side to side. The reason for the ruler is that the warp in any one of those directions can be subtle but if it is there you can forget about running the engine. To a lesser extent you will have to do the same thing if the tender is the diecast version. I would never buy either one without actually examining it in person.
Northwoods,
As a long time Lionel collector, heavy into Pre-War, I often looked at the beauty of 1930s Flyer. One locomotive I have looked at, and might buy someday, is the#431, it has charm. In looking in my AF 1939 & 1940 catalogs, the 434 and #436 would also fall into the same group (that would fit into a Lionel Collection). I always liked the Pre-war Flyer tinplate cars.
What should I look for, what, if any, are the problems with the above locomotives.
I do most of my shopping at TCA-York.
Don U. TCA 73-5735
The Steel Mogul
Following up on part of mersenne6's post. The Steel Mogul was apparently a popular selling set. It appears in the catalogs that I have from 1930 to 1934(the latest catalog that I have at this point). It varies each year, including the engine, type of trucks, color of frame, and types of identifying plates or decals.
This is the catalog entry from 1930
I will try to post the other catalog illustrations later.
I have the components for the Steel Mogul, but not all from the same year. I keep this group together because the trucks all match and the cars and tender all have brass plates.
Northwoods Flyer
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
Hello All!
Mersenne6- You're very welcome & like I said before, this is an excellent & informative thread & I do hope it keeps on growing also.
Jim A- I'll have to get together with Bruce Webster & find a Red Corvair for you! Maybe he'll sell me one out of the Trunk of his Car! "Hey Rocky, watch me pull a Corvair out of my Hat."! Take Care.
That's true Keith. I was thinking about O gauge and I should have stated that in the text. Thanks for the correction.
More great stuff since the last time I peeked in. I agree with Keith in that this is one of the best threads on the forum.
Jim
Keith, you owe me a RED Corvair!!!!!
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
Hello Guys!
I have no Prewar or Postwar Flyer. However, I think that this is one of the best threads on the forum & sure does make for some very informative reading. And, I enjoy the photos also. Keep it up. P.S. Here is a correction for one of the above posts. Lionel came out with Three Rail Electric Trains in 1906(Standard Gauge) In 1915, they came out with Three Rail O Gauge Electric Trains. The post I'm referring to implied that Lionel started making Three Rail Electric Trains in 1915, which is inaccurate. 1906 is the first year they did this. Take Care all.
Electrifying Steam III
The #3195 and the 3195X came in a number of different sets both cataloged and uncataloged. By 1931, across the U.S. and the world things were getting very serious financially. The impact on Flyer is obvious if one looks at the 1930 and the 1931 catalog and also examines the 1931 train set composition list (a listing provided to salesmen and retail outlets. The use of cuts from the 1930 catalog, the text in the compositions list with its repeated requests for the reader to refer to illustrations in the 1930 catalogs, the price reductions across the line, the modification of the existing line to cover every possible economic niche, all paint a picture of a toy company fighting the depression.
The text of the compositions list essentially states Flyer will "build to suit" - in other words, if you as a retailer want some modification to the sets that you think will sell more Flyer will make the necessary changes. I think the number and variety of uncataloged sets from the 1930-31 period is probably due to this operating philosophy. The set below is one of those uncataloged sets. In addition to pulling a consist different from any of the catalog sets the engine itself has a simulated Stephenson valve gear which differs from the production versions illustrated in the earlier post.
3198
This engine was genuinely new for 1930. Like #3195 this engine went through a number of changes. The earliest version had a boiler front with a centered headlight and a small cast platform for a bell.
This soon changed to a boiler front with no cast pedestal for the bell and this, in turn, was followed by a boiler front decorated with a the sheet metal visor with a bracket for the bell.
Since it was the top of the line steam engine it came with the top of the line freight and passenger cars. It came with either a 4 wheel or an eight wheel tender.
The freight set, The Steel Mogul
Note that the bell is missing from the top of the visor bracket. This is not a case of a part falling off. The enamel is unbroken and the curve to what should be a flat surface is obviously intentional. What we have here is another case of if-it-isn't-ready-to-go-bolt-it-on-and-ship-it-anyway.
Sometime in 1931 American Flyer dropped the #3198 casting as shown above and substituted a stripped down version of #3190. This engine had an 0-4-0 wheel arrangement, a #3199 8 wheel tender, and was rubber stamped #3198 on the underside of the cowcatcher casting.
Underside Detail
The shed that was used on the Suburban Station and the Watchman's Tower appeared on several other trackside accessories as well.
The 236 Crossing Set was cataloged from 1933-1935. It is a combination of the 214 Watchman's Tower which is lighted, 2021 Crossing Gate, and the 206 Danger Signal with a light added to it. The tower also has a bell that is rung manually. The base is only 4" wide so it sits nicely between two tracks.
The second accessory is the 235 Water Tank Set cataloged from 1933-1935. I posted pictures of this accessory earlier in the thread but I will post the pictures here again. There is a light in the lithographed shed and in the top of the water tank.
Electrifying Steam II
In 1922 American Flyer listed, only as a footnote in the catalog, another electric steam engine. The footnote is below the listing for set #1100 - "Set #1101 like #1100 except has electrically powered steam locomotive.
This engine has the cast iron body of the clockwork #13.
As mentioned previously, Flyer stopped producing electrified steam in 1924. According to the Greenberg guide Flyers decision to re-introduce electrified steam in 1930 may have been driven by the competition - Lionel's 1930 lineup.
Flyer's 1930 offerings were #3195, #3197, and #3198. Of the three, only #3198 was a really new casting. The others were modifications of the old #16 clockwork casting.
3195, 3197
#3195 and #3197 were the same engine except #3197 had a manual reverse. The reverse unit is mounted in the cab and the lever which controls it protrudes from the back of the cab. Both of these engines can be found either with brass plates etched with "3195" or "3197" on both sides of the cab or with brass plates etched with the words "American Flyer Lines" or with a mix, one side with the numbers and the other with the American Flyer label. In SOME instances when the brass plates are not the numbered plates the identification number may be found rubber stamped on the underside of the engine cab. The edge trim on the engines is either gold or reddish orange.
The earliest versions of 3195 and 3197 came without the visor for the headlight. The sheet metal visor/bell combination is easily removed and the engines are often found with the visor missing. Genuine early versions of these engines will NOT have a small tapped hole in the boiler front which is for the screw that holds the visor to the boiler front.
The tender for these engines was, typically, #3196. The tender comes either weighted with a cast iron coal pile, or unweighted with a sheet metal insert embossed to look like coal. Sometimes there is a dummy backup light tabbed to the top of the sheet metal coal pile. The tender has brass handrails and either blue green or orange paint trim around the tender collar. The tender sides can either be plain, plain with paint filled slots for tabbing a name plate, or it can have brass nameplates etched with "American Flyer" attached to the tender sides. In addition to these three basic variations I have found tenders with brass plates etched with the names "Hancock", "Madison", "Academy",or "Champion".
The first three are the nameplates for the Presidential Special standard gauge cars. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there are tenders with "West Point" (the other car in the Presidential Special consist) plates as well. I wouldn't recommend paying any kind of a premium for a tender with these plates because reproduction plates are available and it is a very simple matter to change them.
#3195 with "American Flyer Lines" brass plates under cab window (the plate "3195" is on the other side) and "American Flyer" plates on tender - engine has reddish orange trim, tender has a blue green collar trim.
#3195 with "3195" plates under cab window, gold paint trim and a tender with "Hancock" plates.
#3197 with "3197" plates. Note the small metal lever for manual reverse control.
3195X
This engine is the second modification of the #16 casting. The Greenberg book indicates this engine is the later version of #3195. I agree 3195X came later (1931 vs. 1930) but rather than just being a later version of #3195 I think it is possible 3195X was intended to give the appearance of a different engine. I say this because an examination of the catalog cuts for 1931 shows an engine with predominately 3195X features (set #1309 Red Bird) and on the next page an engine which is illustrated as being headed by the original 3195 (set 1319 Iron Horse). I've seen both of these sets new-in-the-box with original 1931 paperwork and purchase tickets and the engines were as noted.
#3195X with plain tender. Tender has paint filled slots for tabs for the nameplates. Compare the #3195X profile to that of #3197 above. 3195X came with "American Flyer Lines" plates under the cab windows.
The number "3195X was typically rubber stamped under the bottom part of the cab.
The pictures below provide a visual comparison of the similarities and differences of the two castings. Particularly from the front, the two engines are visually very different.
Side by side comparison of the other sides of 3195 (left) and 3195X (right)
Front end detail - similarities and differences
3185
It should also be noted there is a #3185 which is either a very plain and very stripped #3195 or a #3195X. Those examples I've seen come with either a plain tender with no brass or paint trim or a standard #3196 tender as illustrated below.
The stripped #3195 engine has no brass buttons on the steam chest and a brass "3185" plate under the cab window.
I have also seen the stripped #3195 engine with no paint trim, no visor or bell, and no brass highlights (handrails and the brass buttons on the steam chests) the only adornment being the brass "3185" plates under the cab windows.
By contrast, the #3195X engines with the #3185 plates appear to be nothing more than a #3195X with a different number plate such as the engine pictured below.
Watchman's Tower
Flyer cataloged the 92 Watchman's tower from 1928 until 1933. The number was changed to 214 in 1934 and was cataloged until 1938.
Here are several examples:
This is the version that appears in the catalog illustrations
This is a similar tower, but I think it is a marriage of the shack and a pole for another accessory. It was a part of the items I inherited from the family collection.
Another version that I believe is from the earlier years of listing.
This last version appears in the 1938 catalog as the 214 and is lighted. The bell is actually manually operated, the wiring is for the bulb inside the shack. You have to disassemble the building to change or tighten the bulb.
These same lithographed buildings were used on several other accessories including the suburban station posted previously. I will post them as I find them.
Electrifying Steam
Electricity finally came to O gauge American Flyer rails in 1918. Ives had gone the third rail route in 1910 and Lionel had followed with O gauge in 1915. The first Flyer electrically powered steam locomotives used the shell of the large #15 clockwork engine. This style of engine lasted through 1924. From 1924 to 1930 electrified steam disappeared from Flyer rails and all of their electric trains were pulled by electric outline locomotives.
According to the Greenberg guide the choice of an electrically powered steam outline engine was a good business move because there was less competition. Lionel didn't offer one and because of World War I none of the German firms who had been providing steam outline electric trains were exporting trains to the U.S. As for price- the difference between the clockwork and the electric steam engines was substantial. The 1922 catalog indicates that, for the engine only, the clockwork #15 was $2.25 whereas the electric version (without headlight) was $4.00. The steam engine with a working headlight was $4.50.
Greenberg indicates there is some doubt concerning the actual catalog number for these first engines. The guide indicates the engine without the headlight is #1094 and the engine with a working "headlight" is #1216.
The treatment of the working headlight is definitely unique to American Flyer. The headlight was referred to as a "protected headlight" ...and it certainly was. They took the clockwork boiler casting and left the cast iron representation of a headlight mounted on the top of the boiler. Then they hollowed out the boiler front and installed a stamped steel reflector and a bulb that occupied the entire boiler front area.
The engines came in a number of different sets which varied in terms of number and types of cars. The #1216 below heads up a 4 car passenger set. This set was new in the box when I saw it and it has a feature that may be deliberate or it may just have been the result of the desires of the individual who purchased it.
If you look at the picture of the box cover of this set
you will notice that the baggage car in the consist has a different color. In the late 19th century it was common for the real railroads to paint some of their head end express baggage cars in colors that contrasted with the rest of the train. In the case of the box art the different color is used to frame part of the American Flyer ad but I can't help but wonder if the different color of the baggage car in the consist above is an attempt, either on the part of Flyer or on the part of the original purchaser, to recreate, in toy train form, a passenger consist that resembled trains that had been running some 20 to 30 years earlier.
The set below, with 4 wheeled passenger cars, is headed by #1094.
Suburban Station
Flyer cataloged two different Suburban stations. The #93 was cataloged from 1928-1931. The #234 was cataloged from 1933-1938.
From descriptions that I have read I believe that this is the #93. It is unlighted.
A version with a red roof and this lithography appeared as one of the variations of the #234
The following are different variations of the #234
NorthWoods Flyer
The first American Flyer trains were manufactured by Edmonds-Metzel Mfr. Co. in Chicago in 1907. The first engine and tender combination looks like the bottom engine in the picture of the dual train set. The engine in the set picture is the second version of that engine. The first version has 4 thin boiler bands instead of the two broad ones, it has a handrail along the boiler, the overhang of the back of the cab roof is shorter and the connecting rods are a two piece hinged affair instead of the single piece metal stamping. It was manufactured in its first form from 1907-1910. The second version was made from 1911-1914, and the third, which looks like the second except it has the addition of three rows of rivets around the boiler. The first cars were 4 1/2 inch, 3 window passenger cars with the lettering "Pullman" above the windows and the lettering "Chicago" below them. The windows were either punched or unpunched. Unfortunately, I don't have pictures of these cars.
"No childhood should be without a train!"
Dual train sets - clockwork
Updated July 2021
Over the years the various toy train manufacturers offered high end sets which included more than one train. One of the earliest entries in this category was Flyer's set M20. I don't know the first year that Flyer offered the set but this catalog cut is from 1914 and indicates the set sold for $7.00 that year.
Catalog cut from 1916
The set consisted of a passenger train and a freight train. The engines and cars changed over the years the set was offered. In addition to the two trains the set has a very interesting track plan. It consists of an inner and an outer loop connected by two manually operated crossovers or "Double Track Switches" as the catalog termed them. The inner and outer loops had curved track of different radii. The curved track of the inner loop makes a complete circle in six segments whereas the outer loop curves need 8 for a complete circle. Included in the track is an "automatic brake section" which, according to the catalog "can be used with interesting results where our large locomotive is part of the equipment."
The Set
...and the trains
In the time since I made this post (2008) I have learned a few things. First - the gondola is too late with respect to manufacture to have been original with this set. The acutal gondola should be brown with just car numbers for identification - no other lithography.
Second - The two engines in this set happen to be the two lesser engines featured in the sequential Flyer ads at the beginning of this post. Based on the catalog cuts one of the engines should have been an early version of #15. I suppose someone could have substituted one or the other of the engines in this set for a missing #15 or this could be a case of an error during set assembly. Either way I don't have an answer.
So, in the interests of accuracy I will state all of the cars save the gondola are correct for this set as is all of the track. Both engines are correct for the set but based on the ads they shouldn't be in the same set together.
Ok, not too informational but I had a train day with the nephew and broke out my Flyer stuff. it ran great and was received with excitement. so much for realism being important with kids! here are a few photos:
thanx for the great post it has been wonderful!
Scott
Wide Gauge Tank Cars
Flyer first cataloged the 4010 tank car for their Wide Gauge line in 1928. They appeared in the catalog until the Wide Gauge line was discontinued in 1936. Greenberg lists a total of 9 variations during those years including the presence or abscence of ladders, the color and number of bands holding the tank to the frame, and the variety of brass plates attached to the tank. I only have one example of the Wide Gauge tank car. There is one difficult to find variation and that is a car with a dark blue tank, the same color as the bands on my tank car.
A few detail pictures:
I posted pictures of my 6 1/2 and 9 1/2 inch cars earlier.
Here are some pictures for comparison.
It has been interesting to see how Flyer used similar colors, and shapes in both the Wide Gauge and Narrow Gauge (O gauge) lines. They did the same thing later under Gilbert ownership when they developed an HO line. The cars were just smaller versions of the S gauge trains.
9 1/2 inch litho freight cars - the rest of the story
The first of the 9 1/2 cars was the flat car with lumber which was cataloged by itself in 1924. The lumber load consists of separate pieces of varnished lumber resting on a felt pad and held in place with a series of clamps across the top. The intact car is difficult to find but, probably because it isn't particularly eye catching, it doesn't command the price of the other cars in the series.
Since I made this post way back when I have found a couple of other variations of the lumber car. These two variations do not have a felt pad and the hold downs for the lumber are much more substantial. In addition the lumber is cut to two lengths - one is the full length of the car (below) and the other is the same length as the lumber illustrated above.
The lithoed tank car is just the long version of the 6 1/2 tank car shown previously with a few additional identification markings.
6 1/2" tank car
9 1/2" tank car
The boxcars (actually 3 boxcars and a reefer) are
B&O
Great Northern
Nickel Plate
and the American Refrigerator Transit Co. reefer
The first time I saw the ART I thought it was a rather odd looking car, particularly with the serial number sitting on the left side all by itself and from time to time I would look at this picture and wonder what possessed American Flyer to come up with that particular litho treatment.
A toy that is going to stand in for a representation of the real thing must have some attributes of the real thing if it is to be successful. It turns out that of the four 9 1/2 inch boxcars/reefers the ART is a VERY close representation of the actual car.
The ART reefer below is one of the series of Atlas O gauge wood side reefers based on the very thorough research/documentation of the late Bob Wagner. As you can see Flyer put the car serial number in large numbers on the left hand side because that is the way it was done on the real thing.
3207
Gondolas, Sand Cars and Coal Cars
Flyer used several terms to refer to their gondola cars over the years. They used the term "coal car" in some of their earliest catalogs. Through the years they used the terms "gondola" and "sand car" interchangeably. mersenne6 has posted pictures of the lithographed versions of the 9 1/2" sand cars. Flyer produced enameled versions of the 9 1/2 inch cars from 1928 to 1938. A few of the variations are pictured here. All of them are numbered 3207.
This is the earliest version that I have. It is has two brass plates on each side, one reading "American Flyer Lines", and the other "3207". Notice that the steps at the ends of the car are long, and are actually spot welded to the frame. These trucks are known as type VII
The next version has two "American Flyer Lines" decals per side and the steps are a part of the frame of the car. This is sometimes refered to as the new style of frame. The trucks are known as Type VIII.
This verison is from 1938. It also has two "American Flyer Lines" decals per side. The style of truck is known as XII. The trucks and the sheet metal knuckle coupler known as the "Curly Q" coupler are the identifying marks for production from this year.
Here are the versions that I have, illustrating the difference in trucks, and the variations in colors of green that were used.
The vast majority of the 3207s are some shade of green. There is an orange variation that is very difficult to find. I have heard of other variations as well including a grey variation, but I have not seen them. One of the things that I have noticed is that it is difficult to find one of these cars in really excellent condition. I think it is because it has so much play value, hauling around stones, and building blocks or Tinker Toys, or scrap metal, or Erector set parts, and other items. It really is the work horse of the freight cars. When I have sand cars running on display they always carry candy.
If there are other examples available to see please post them.
I aggree, the handcar is fun to watch. I have a reversing hand car on the back of the layout that goes back and forth and when I set up our layout at shows, the hand car is a crowd pleaser. The reversing 742 is on the left.
Sturgeon-PhishNorthwoods Flyer I have really enjoyed looking at the prewar AF, and looking forward to the "rest of the story". I will have a few pics to contribute, especially if I can get my @##$% ( oohhh my!) camera working. Here is a teaser Jim
I have really enjoyed looking at the prewar AF, and looking forward to the "rest of the story". I will have a few pics to contribute, especially if I can get my @##$% ( oohhh my!) camera working. Here is a teaser
Jim,
The Miner's Work Train set (No. 5300), as you already know, was cataloged by Flyer in 1953 and 1954 and didn't change at all between the two years. It really is a fun little set. The handcar all by itself is a lot of fun to watch. Those two guys pumping like crazy to fly around the track always makes me smile. On the ocassions that I have run the hand car at shows or times I have displayed the trains for local historical societies it has always been a real crowd pleaser. I usually run it in front of a steamer and the kids just love watching the engine overtaking the handcar. It reminds me of some old movie with Abbott and Costello.
Here are some pictures of the page from the 1953 catalog
Nice tease so far. Keep those pictures coming.
9 1/2 inch litho gondolas
The big 9 1/2 inch litho gondolas of the American Flyer lineup were first offered in the 1925 catalog. They were sold separately and they were also included in two sets - one in 1925 and one in 1926. Their last year for sale was 1927. In 1928 they, along with the rest of the lithoed 9 1/2 series, were replaced with enameled cars with brass plates. Unlike the enameled series, Flyer never made a matching 9 1/2 inch litho caboose. It was indeed a case of "the little red- 6 1/2 inch - caboose behind (the large lithoed car) train."
The four gondolas were
Pennsylvania
Union Pacific
New York Central
and IC
Of the group, the rose colored IC is my favorite.
I'm glad a number of you are enjoying this thread that Northwoods started. I also hope you are saving the text and pictures in this thread to you own computers for future reference.
Northwoods Flyer wrote: I'll keep posting as long as folks continue to be interested and want to participate. I have plenty of items to go in PreWar, and then we can start in S gauge. Nothwoods Flyer
I'll keep posting as long as folks continue to be interested and want to participate. I have plenty of items to go in PreWar, and then we can start in S gauge.
Nothwoods Flyer
I have really enjoyed looking at the prewar AF, and looking forward to the "rest of the story". I will have a few pics to contribute, especially if I can get my @##$% camera working. Here is a teaser
Thank you for all the kind comments about the thread. I started it because I enjoy American Flyer trains, and I look for any opportunity to read about them or see examples. In my opinion part of the enjoyment of collecting anything is to be able to share the collection, the information about the items, and the stories of how I aquired them. Besides, I consider it a form of therapy. I'm glad that others are enjoying it too, and I appreciate all of the contributions and questions that folks are posting. I have come to appeciate that everyone has their own approach to collecting and standards that that they go by. Its nice to know that others are out there pursuing their collection. mersenne6 has been a valuable help in providing pictures of items that I have only read about. One day I think I want to own his picture collection.
Jack,
As far as restorations, I have resisted adding any of them to my collection, although there are a few items that have had roofs restored. Repainting is much easier to do on the enameled items than on some of the others. Rust is a devestating factor and while I have a few basket cases, I usually have them only for parts. I would qualify most of my collection as operator quality or a bit better. As others have said, they are toys and had a very important part to play in the life of a child at some time. I like to think that my collection is preserving a part of history, and I am only a steward of them for right now.
A day when I can play with trains or engage in my hobby, or communicate with others who share the interest is a very good day.
Sorry, I have no idea what I posted here originally.
Cosmetic restoration? Do you mean repaints? No, no repaints. Everything I've photographed has been original condition. In the case of litho - repainting would be a real challenge. I understand there are a handful of people who will do such work and for something extremely rare I suppose it might be worthwhile but the only work of that type I've ever seen was on a single piece of Marklin litho from the pre WWI period and the asking price for the finished piece was more than my annual train budget for the next 4 years. The fact is that it takes a lot of abuse to really chew up litho. The enamel on the roof and base will scratch/peel/flake long before the litho will go.
As a strictly postwar guy who reads this thread regularly, one thing that strikes me is that there is very little (or any?) cosmetic restoration among all the prewar AF pictures. No?
Jack
IF IT WON'T COME LOOSE BY TAPPING ON IT, DON'T TRY TO FORCE IT. USE A BIGGER HAMMER.
Jumijo wrote:Boy, I am really enjoying this thread!...
Boy, I am really enjoying this thread!...
This is probably the best prewar thread we've ever had over here.
- Clint
Boy, I am really enjoying this thread! I hope to pick up some pre war AF this year. A steamer to start off.
Mike,
I realize the wheels are a single piece. I was just describing how one of my friends got around the problem. When he blackened the brass wheel centers they were a visually perfect match for the originals. He felt that if he made the entire wheel out of brass the wear on the softer brass would have probably worn them out in fairly short order. As for others wanting the wheels - you bet. The problem is that there aren't nearly as many of us desiring these wheels as their there are those desiring the Lionel counterparts.
Years ago there was a supplier of prewar Flyer parts who did make high pressure diecast wheels for some of the Flyer engines (but not this one). I purchased the wheels I needed as did others but our purchases weren't even close to being sufficient. It was my understanding that he didn't even break even on his expenses.
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