Who cares if it doesn't reflect current operations? Those old photos are cool! Sometimes I think the folks over at "Trains" take this stuff WAY too seriously!
Thanks for posting them David!
My photo of the 65th St. 3rd Ave. main workshop and car house is from a very scratched negative. I did not think the defects would show up as clearly as they have, so I've gone to work on it, with some improvement. May be able to do more, but it does take time. Here is a progress report.
Nice clean-up job! Remember the old saying, "The best is the enemy of the good?"
Sometimes just have to go with what's available.
Here is about as good as I can do within a reasonable amount time. After that we will go north in Manhattan, mostly conduit cars, all the way to Marble Hill 225th St., nprthern end of conduit. Details will wait until the edit button is restored. Future postings will handle The Bronx, including some far south of 225, and then eventually Yonkers and Mt. Vernon.
But converables now have their own thread.
More to come
daveklepper
Dave, as you know, this picture shows the RKO Royal in the Bronx, where the Marx Brothers performed before it became a movie theater.
http://www.nycago.org/Organs/Brx/html/RKORoyalTheatre.html
http://www.marx-brothers.org/acting/vaude_detail.htm?show_id=8
http://www.marx-brothers.org/marxology/home.htm
https://walkingoffthebigapple.blogspot.com/2009/06/long-road-to-big-time-marx-brothers.html
Truthfuly, I did not know the Marx Bros. performed there. I thought they performed in one or more Manhattan venues for the NY area.
Ex-Ogden Avneue car replacing convertable on "C" Bronx-and Van Courtland, on B'way at 238th.
An unuaual photo from the Shore Line Trolley Museum Journal showing Brooklyn early double-truck hand-braked 1792 (still with its work-car sand-car number) on its way to East Haven CT followed by a Subway (241 & Wh. Pl. Rd/Av) - New Rochelle "A' car of the 301-400 series that were the regulars untl buses came in late 1950, shortly after the photo was taken.
Looking East at West FArms Square, a lighweight bumped by buses from the "O" Ogden Avenue line, replaces a convertable on the "C" Bronx and Van Courtland Parks line, here discharging passengers before proceeding to the crossover on E.177the to change ends.
Dave, the last post had no photo. The post before that had a link to a photo, but it required a password.
Here are both photos:
One photo was an error, already on the Convertable thread.
correct two photos are:
daveklepper Here are both photos:
What are we looking at in the bottom photo?
West Farms Square looking west. The lightweigh in the middle track is a gap-filler car, since the "T" Tremont Avenue line runs through. The "v" Williams Bridge line will reverse here, use the crossover, and run on the east side of Bronx Park to Gun Hill Road and White Plains Avenue (Road according the IRT, but not the street sign!). Curve-sided convertables were very rare, mostly scrapped, at the time in Autumn 1947, when this photo was taken. Also, new paint job on 626, probably received when it got its trolley poles earlier that year after transfer from the bussed Manhattan Lines, has the front bottom skirt painted black instead of the regular deep red-maroon as on 676 which alway was a Bronx pole car. Note the standard IRT Low-V cars on the structure in the background. West Farms Square, Boston Road, Southern Boulevard, 177th Street, Tremont Avenue, was served by the "B, C, S, T, V," and "Z". West Farms Car House was a few block south and west on Boston Road. Below is a lightweight 388 dischargin all passengers, transfered from Ogden Avenue to the "C" after "O" Ogden, "U" University, and "Z" 180th Street were bussed in March 1947. The convertable thread has "C" reversing on the crossover just east of the Square on E. 177th St.
Now for some Yonkers lines pictures, starting at the end of the Broadway subway line at 242nd sTreet, Van Courtland Park. The 1, 2, lines and their short-turn 3 reversed here, while the C from West Farms Square ran through to 262nd Street, Yonkers City Line.
On Warburton Avenue. Note Nachod signal
Foot of Main Street, Near NY Central Sta.
End of then usable track on Neperhan Avenue, fan trip with one 101-class car, oriignally a conduit car in Manhattan, and one 301-class car, always a Yonkers car. plus regular service line 5 car.
On the service track between the 5 Neperhan Avenue and the 6 Tuckaho Rd lines at the crossing with an industry branch of he Central's Putnam Division.
Would NY Transit cars run thru into Yonkers, or were they two seperate systems?
The systems were privately owned, and for most of the streetcar history, the Third Avenue Railway System, after 1939 the Third Avenue Transit System, was the real owner of the Yonkers, Bronx, and its Manahattan streetcar lines. The Park Avenue "2," and the Warbirton Avenue "1" were extended south to meet the IRT at West 242nd Street, Broadway, with the South Broadway line that ran north only to Gettys Square retained as the "3," really a short-turn for the "1" and "2." They crossed into The Bronx at the city line, W. 262nd Street, also the north end of Van Courtland Park.
The "4," McClean Avenue, also ran into The Bronx, connecting with the north end of the Jerome Avenue IRT at Woodlawn Road. Its history is more complex. At one time it crossed Central Avenue, the extension of Jerome Avenue all the way up to White Plains, and turned south on Webster Avenue to run to the north end of the Third Avenue Elevated at Bedford Park, Treemont Avenue. There was also the Jerome Avenue streetcar line, north end at Yonkers Race Track, Yonkers Avenue, that ran south, crossing into The Bronx and continiung south to 161st, then running east over the McCoombs Dam Bridge, with the Ogden Avenue and 161st Street Bronx crosstown to 155th and 8th connecting with the 9th Avenue elevated, later all extended to Amsterdam and 155th. With some abandonments, the "4" took its final form.
The "5" and "6" and "8"" and "9" were Yonkers-only lines. The "7" was a major east-west line running to the Mount Vernon New Haven RR Sta. and connecting with "A" New Rochelle line.
In addition to the 1, 2, 3, and 4 lines from Yonkers entering The Bronx, the A line from the New Rochelle New Haven Station and the B line from the New Haven Mount Vernon Station entered The Bronx at East 261st Street and connected with the White Plains Avenue (Road on IRT subway signs) subway lines at East 241st Street. For some reason the B, but the A, continiued south to East 229th Street.
daveklepper ... The "4," McClean Avenue, also ran into The Bronx, connecting with the north end of the Jerome Avenue IRT at Woodlawn Road. Its history is more complex. At one time it crossed Central Avenue, the extension of Jerome Avenue all the way up to White Plains, and turned south on Webster Avenue to run to the north end of the Third Avenue Elevated at Bedford Park, Treemont Avenue. ...
...
The "4," McClean Avenue, also ran into The Bronx, connecting with the north end of the Jerome Avenue IRT at Woodlawn Road. Its history is more complex. At one time it crossed Central Avenue, the extension of Jerome Avenue all the way up to White Plains, and turned south on Webster Avenue to run to the north end of the Third Avenue Elevated at Bedford Park, Treemont Avenue. ...
Did a trolley run all the way up to White Plains?
I believe there was a gap that was not filled. The 1 line did run further into downtown Hastings, and there was an isolated Third Avenue-run Tarrrytown - White Plains line. Here is a map of the system as I renenber it 1940 to the end of Bronx lines in 1948 and start of Westchester abandonments in 1950 or 1951. As long as Yonkers lines and Westechester lines ran, they did continue to enter The Bronx to the subway line terminals, with the B even continuing further south to 229th Street.
This is from memory, so there may be errors.
I should note that with the exception of the Sedgewick Avenue line in The Bronx, which in my day was a one-car every-half-hour semi-shuttle, all single-track operations of Third Avenue were in Yonkers during this period. The 8 on Riverdale Avenue used two cars with a passing siding midway. The 9 Elm & Walnut used one car, with a steep grade, and the only derailer on the system. Going back downtown on Walnut just after leaving the outer terminal, the operator had to come to full stop and key the derailer off to continue downhill.
Also, the only track on the entire Third Avenue system that was not in pavement (after ending their operations on the Queensboro and Manhattan Bridges where track was shared with othe companies, long before my time) was on the outer end of the 5 Neperhan Avenue line.
Thanks. You also answred my next question, which was to confirm the Tarrytown-White Plains line.
I found out that in addition to the NH and NYW&B between New Rochelle and Port Chester, there was also a trolley.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_and_Stamford_Railway
Yes, and it did run all the way from New Rochelle to Stamford. Third Avenue actually owned the rack as far as Rye, with a local line New Rochelle RR Station to to Rye Beach. (Rye also had a NYW&B stop, sorry I left that out, New Rochelle, Larchmont, Memaroneck, Harrison, Rye, Portchester. Do I have the order correct?) Of course I can check Metro-North timetable on-line.) The New York and Stamford was a real interurban, not just a cross-country trolley line, since it operated genuine Jewett or Jewett-style railroad-roof green interurban cars. It was an essential part of the trolley-car link between Waterville, Maine, and New York. It connected with Connecticut Company lines in Stamford.
At the New Haven RR Station forecort, there were was a multi-line departure board, which is now the the Branford Electric Ry. Association's Shore Line Trolley Museum in or near the East Haven Sprague Station. Subway, Rye Beach, and Stamford are among the destinations shown. There were two or three New Rochelle local lines.
One of my earliest memories is looking out of the back window of a car as we went under the subway's elevated structure on White Plains Road and then out into the open at E 241st, followed by a Third Avenue convertable. The tracks remained in sight all through the trip through New Rochelle, including the abandoned tracks north of where the active loops serving the station turned off, and then the track swerved to the north or east side of the road and dissapeared. This was in 1935, I was three-and-a-half, and I have recounted the return trip from Hartford and my memory of the steam locomotive.
I was suprised to hear that The NY & Stamford was a full interurban. I figured it must have been a rinky-dink trolley, such that NH thought it was worth it to finance the NYW&B interurban New Rochelle-Port Chester extension. Maybe the extension was just to supplement (relieve?) the NH on some of the local business.
And yes, you have the correct order of stations.
I read that the NYW&B passengers to the 133rd St Terminal could connect to th 3rd Avenue El. I also read that the Third Ave bridge carried that line. Were the rails carried at road deck level? Did making the bridge one-way in 1941 affect rail transit?
The existing Third Avenue bridge once had streetcar tracks, and for many years the line was a shuttle from 149th Street, the Hub, Westchester Avenue, Boston Road, Webster Avenue, Third Avenue. Willis Avenue all converging south over the bridge to 129th Street and Third Avenue and a connection with the conduit Third Avenue streetcar. When the bridge was made one-way before WWII, the tracks became service non-revenue only, used during the middle of the night for car transfer, and the replacement bus was the same as the replacement for the Willis Avenue-125th Street streetcar, since the First Avenue Bridge also became one-way the other way.
The Third Avenue Elevated had a completely different bridge. Originally built by the Suburban Company it saw steam elevated trains from 129th Street, a joint station, Suburban, 2nd Av. and 3rd Av. Els., track map on the Remember the Third Ave. El thread, north to Treemont Avenue AND New York New Haven and Hartford Harlem Shuttle steam trains, with elevated-dimension coaches, from New Rochelle. After electrification of the elevateds in 1903, 3rd Avenue trains ran through to Treemont Avenue, and shuttle from 129th St. was established to Willis Avenue station where the NYNH&H steam trains, later electrified, terninated. After the dual contracts, and the IRT rebuilding of the elevateds, the single-level double-track bridge was replaced with a two-level bridge, with two tracks on each level. The upper level was used only during rush hours by 3rd and 2nd Avenue Expresses, with the lower level used all the time. The elevated shuttles to Willis Avenue continued to operate using the lower level. This bridge does not exist today.
Thanks, I looked at the map on the earlier thread. Using that map, it looks like the El bridge might be the bridge identified as the Secong Av Br on the linked 1947 topo map:
https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/img4/ht_icons/Browse/NY/NY_Central%20Park_122894_1947_24000.jpg
Correct. The bridge was located at 2nd Avenue. It did not have a roadway for regular vehicles, and was used for elevated trains exclusively. I think a new roadway bridge may have replaced it.
The two levels of track north of the bridge were on PRoW, even though elevated. The takeoff for the Willis Avenue station was a track between the two lower-level tracks that ramped down to ground level after the take-off for the lead to the small elevated yard where the old steam locomotives were stored until sale. The Willis Avenue station had the elevated, the NYNH&H Harlem Shuttle, and the NYW&B.
There are videos of the 'last days' of the 2nd and 3rd Avenue Els (narrated by Roger Arcara iianm) that clearly show the bridges and track arrangements with discussion (and film!) of operations across them.
Are those videos on line?
Yes, definitely, on U-Tube. Google Second and Third Avenue Elevateds, and you will reach it. Very good, except too much footage on scrapping and disposing of old cars. Also one minior error. The streetcar undr the 2nd Avenue and 42nd Street Station he calls a 42nd Street crosstowno is clearly a double-end Peter Witt 551-series lightweight assigned only to the Broadway - 42nd Street Line. The 42nd St. Crosstown was run almost entirely by curved-side convertables with the occasional Sunday-only appearance of end-door 626-series lightweights borrowed from the 59th Street crosstown.
Also the old subway cars used as elevated express trains were composites, not mostly wood. We called them The Comoposites.
As an experiment, one of the aluminum bodied 551-600 Brodway - 42nd Street "Huffliners" was left mainly unpainted aliluminum with red numbers and trim. After some months it was painted creamy yellow and red like the oeathers. I copied this photo 71 years ago from the companies files.
Here we are at the north end of the West Farms carhouse, August 1948, with 194 the last car on the Boston Road line, The elevated structure is that use by the 2 and 5. The car saw four more years of service in Yonkers, until 1952.
Dave, it does not look like the photo made it into your last post.
Strange. Should be able to correct this tomorrow with a wide-band server.
corrected by this post with another from the same day:
Correction to previous posts. 194 was not the last car and was at the north upper level portal on Southern Bkvd of the West Farms car-house. 196, the last car, was photographed inside on the lower level, back entrnce. Both cars saw addional service in Yonkers replacing 301-400 series cars that needed overhauling.
In the autumn 1947 the Columbia Grammar Prep Football team played a game (Bronx Highschool of Science?) on the public park field across 161st Street from Yankee Stadium; and, while photographing football actifities, I did manage a passing photo of 130, formerly a conduit car for the "T"and "K" Manahttan routes, but transfered to the Bronx with troilley pole in March 1947. I think it was sold to someplace in Indua in 1948. The Elevated structure in the background is here on River Street, merges into Jerome Avenue, behind me here, just before the 167th Street Station. The "4" is the line today. The streetcar line is the 161st-163rd Street Crosstown.
Here are all photos scanned so far for my favorite streetcar, the Broadway - 42nd Street Huffliner named for Slaughter Huff, Pres. of Third Avenue Railway and then Third Avenue Tansit, and believer in conltinued streetcar operation on heavy routes. Two or three posted earlier.
551 was the sample prototype, aluminum. Reportadly built by Brill. 552-600 were also aluminium, but assembled at the Third Avenue'shop at E. 65th St. and Third Avenue.
Here it is equipped with a temporar single trolley pole at the Gardner Avenue, Mt. Veron, yard, shorly after its completion in 1938. Its visit to Yonkers and Westchester may have been to test its speed capabilities on Yonkers Avenue, where sustained relatively high speed ws possible, and it probably was run all the way to New Rochelle to get tusrned around at the loop there.
555, one of the 551- 600 aluminum production run, was left as unpainted aluminum, with a thin red stripe. The wood doors were painted silver to match. The car is in front of the 129th Stret and Amsterdam Av. carhouse. 551 had exit doors opposed, 552-600, and the Corten steel 601 - 625 had staggered exit doors; 551's were opposite.
551 - 625 were the only Peter Witt Third Avenue cars. All others in the era of one-man operation had rear exits. 577 is at or around 86th & Broadway.
597 is southbound at Broadway and 73rd Street.
Sao Paulo, Brazil
Thanks for your efforts on this David, it's a fascinating look at a vanished time!
Didn't Richard Rodgers briefly have Huff in mind before he changed the street in the song title from 3rd to 10th?
And in addition to being Peter Witts, 551-625 differed from the other new lightweights in copying the Agasote?? ceiling treatment of the PCCs and their frosted glass lighting. The other new lightweighs, 101-200, 301-400, and 626-685 had bare roofs and exposed bulbs. Reversable seating was rattan. In addition, there were wood-board seats that were turned down from upright actoss the unused doorways on the off-side of the car, since only right-hand doors were used. And an additdional wood seat was the top of the sandbox.
Really my favorite streetcars
After the 1937 - 1938 construction of the Peter-Witt door-arrangement "Huffliners," again my favorite cars, 551 - 625, the last homemade lightweights were 626 - 685. 626 - 645 were conduit cars for 59th Street Crosstown, with one or two replacing convertables on 42nd Street Crosstown on Sundays. They had special truckx using some rubber inlays to reduce noise. May and June 1947 they got trolley poles and joined trolley-pole 646-685 to close out specifically Bronx atreetcar lines in August 1948. (Yonkers lines entered The Bronx until 1952.) The 59th Street X was the first line converted post-WWIi, 1 November 1946, while the Tremont Avenue line was one that lasted until August 1948. See Jack May's report on his Vienna visits, TRAINS Transi Forum, for the further use of most of these cars. The Bronx's Tremont Avenue line was joined by Southern Boulevard "S", Westchester Avenue "A", and Boston Post Road "B" as the final four. In addition to 626-685, 101-200 and some high-numbered 300's that originally were conduit cars, closed The Bronx service. All the wood convertables had been scrapped,
Pictures two and three have a nice surprise in them, an Esso gas station!
It's been a long time since I've seen one of those!
Thanks David!
Plenty of Esso stations still up here right across the whole land.
Esso/Imperial Oil a household name in Canada due to their sponsorship of Hockey Night in Canada right from Day1 of TV.
Back in da day when I was a kid the Esso commercials during the hockey game was LIVE! Anyone remember Murray Westgate? Bow tie, Station attendant outfit, tire gauge in breast pocket. He was as popular as the hockey players. Died Aug /2018 age 100.
Here's an ad:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S6cWeVy-xA8
Stateside Esso became Exxon and, to put in a railroad connection, the Exxon logo was designed by Raymond Lowery. How about that!
We still have uniformed gas station attendants up here in La Ronge. We'll sort of, Co-oP gas bar gas jockeys wear black and red outfits and matching parkas in the winter. Name on the jacket, tire gauge, the whole schtick. Yes they always always always clean the windshield.
On the other hand we have old Herman and his entire one early 60's pump thats so beat up, no glass cover, and super slow. Don't know how he gets away with it. Think he summons the bears when the inspectors come up a-la Tarzan.
Nice shot of 631. I have many happy hours at its controller at Seashore (Complete with "X Crosstown" panel), where it awaits motor bearing work and other TLC when money becomes available.
As an aside, the ESSO brand name could not be used nationwide in the United States as part of the Standard Oil break-up agreement. Consequently, the "Oklahoma" and later the ENCO brand name were used in the Midwest.
I grew up in South Carolina, knowing "ESSO" quite well. You could buy Standard Oil of New Jersey products in both Carolinas, Tennessee, Louisiana and, I think, Virginia. My oldest brother worked at the ESSO refinery in Baton Rouge.
Johnny
There are at least 42 Esso gas stations in the city I am living in. So no worries, Esso is still with us.
Jones 3D Modeling Club https://www.youtube.com/Jones3DModelingClub
Please see a spelling correction and additional information on my previous posting.
Here is 637, built for 59th St., Manhattan, without poles and with a conduit "plow" current-collector after it received poles and was moved to The Bronx at the eastern terminal od the Tremont Street line. (Union Port Avenue?)
And on a demonstration run, probably for visitors from Vienna, on Southeern Blvd. Correction: The 59th Street photo is of duplicate 631. Apologies.
CSSHEGEWISCHAs an aside, the ESSO brand name could not be used nationwide in the United States as part of the Standard Oil break-up agreement. Consequently, the "Oklahoma" and later the ENCO brand name were used in the Midwest.
Different brand names were 'proprietary' to the various independent companies that Standard Oil was broken up into, a problem with "Esso" (it's from S.O. meaning Standard Oil of New Jersey) being that it couldn't be used in areas that had other "Standard Oils" (like Sohio or SOCONY). The creation of "Exxon" in the computer was an attempt to synthesize a national brand that would not suffer from the problems Humble Oil had with the Esso (and then Enco) branding in the '60s as it tried to establish a national presence.
I don't usually like citing Wikipedia but they have a pretty good discussion-in-a-nutshell here.
The New York and Stamford was also one of those roads with a lavish private car, a detail that should surely find its way into recent discussion.
Seems to me that one of the topics here is the 'plow exchange' in the vicinity of the Willis Avenue Bridge, where apparently there was expanded vault space for people to attach and detach plows quickly, if not in fact 'on the fly'. Presumably there was a procedure similar to that at Penn Station to ensure that the overhead connection (or at least the collector contact) was not 'energized' at the same time the plow's was...
The south end of the Willis Avenue Bridge on First Avenue, around East 128th Street did have a "plow-pit," and the Willis Avenue convertable streetcars switched between conduit opertion beween that point and the Fort Lee Ferry at the Hudson shore at West 125th Street, and overhead wire north to 149th Street ("The Hub") Willis Avenue, Third Avenue, 149th Street, Melrose Avenue (location of the 3rd Avenue Station of the existing 2 and 5 subway lines). That line went bus just before the Trioboro Bridge was construted, construction that interfered with the streetcar operation.
But the plow-pit at West 145th Street and Lenox Avenue was used by the 149th Street Crosstown until the summer of 1947.
Here are some photos from the Georgetown plow-pit on the Capitol Transit Cabin John line, already posted on the Capitol Transit thread, but here repeated to give you an idea of how they worked.
Coming from downtown:
Towards downtown:
And between times:
Plow-pit man:
At the Benning Road Plow-pit:
The plow pit opening looks big enough for a auto wheel or pedestrian to fall into. Were they normally open like in the photo.
MidlandMike The plow pit opening looks big enough for a auto wheel or pedestrian to fall into. Were they normally open like in the photo.
125th and 3rd, with a "K" heading to the nearby trailing crossover to reverse and return north to 225th and Broadway, Marble Hill, or just possibly continuing south on 3rd Avenue to the 65th Street barn and shops. The 125th crosstown, also still streetcar at the time, continued straight ahead to 1st Avenue.
,
"K" wewstbound on 125th at 5th Avenue with a crosstown immediastely following. Note NY Centeral, now Metro North, station in backround.
Any chance you could try to get the pictures up Dave.
I have edited this post because my email access at the Yeshiva is reasonably decent now. 3 Nov 2020
Still appreciate your interest.
Here are the missing 2 pictures on Third Ave. from David. Glad to help out Dave.
i did some electronic darkroom work on this photo for better balance and wish you to benefit from it.
Third Avenue in the final month, March 1947, of the "T" Third and Amsterdam Avenues, line. (125th St. was the link between the two Avenues.) Note that its track was maintained until after 29 June 1947 for the K, ("Kingsbridge") 125th, Amst., St. Nich,m and B'way line, and south of 125th to 65th and 3rd for put-ins and pull-out that would carry passengers. Park Row. Bowery and 6th, and 125th and 3rd photos:
Problems. Added photos when problems fixed.
Believe the problem is solved:
1
This photo was taken before I received the first camera I owned, a black Leica D. It was the first railfan photo I took. either with my parents' folding camera, or with a friend's Rollaflex. The streetcar design (Aluminum) is my very favorite, the Broadway - 42nd Street line the one I rode most often as a kid, and the location where my favorite restaurants are located. 72nd and Amsterdam and Broadway. Look closely and you can see the 10th Avenue line going off to the left, with car 600 barely past the junction.
It never fails to amaze me what was, and now isn't.
Two ex-Manhattan, conduit, Third and Amsterdam Avenue cars, now with poles for operation in The Bronx, at the 161st street Bronx Concourse underpass in late 1947:
Most of the 1936-1937, first mostly-new-material and regenrative-braling, home-built Third Avenue lightweights in the 301-400 series were assigned to Yonkers and Subway - New Rochelle service. Exceptions were 397-400, equipped for conduit and assisting 101-200 on Manhattan routes, 101-200 similar, but built by splicing two single-truck cars together. Also five others, including 374 pictured, were assigned to The Bronx's Ogdan Avenue Line because of its steep grade. When Ogden Avenue went bus, they were to replace 229th St. - Mt. Vernon convertable cars.
Jack May, The Bronx expert, told me the concrete structure is not what I thought it was, this confirmed by a resident Transit Authoritiy expert, and that the location is Bascobal Place on Ogden Avenue, a short distance south of the east end of Washington Bridge, and thus 384 is on the "O" Ogden Avenue, the route that crossed the Harlem River twice, running from 155th Street and Amsterdam Avenue to 181st Street and Broadway via Ogden Avenue in The Bronx..
But here is ex-Manhattan 141 on 138th Street in The Bronx:
Showing the transformation of some of the newest Third Avenue cars from conduit Manhattan cars to pole The Bronx cars, 640 is an example:
More at the east end of the Washington Bridge:
194 near the 125th Street Fort Lee Ferry and then after the last day od Bronx Streetcars (now with trolley pole) in the Bronx West Farms carhouse. It lasted a few more years in Yonkers:
Park Row - City Hall. March 1947:
Third and Amsterdam Avenue Line, but before December 1935 tracks at this location shared with 4th and Madisob line, the successor to the World's original street railwaטץ
8/31/85 125th & 8th to 186th and Amsterdam 12/01/86 125th St from river to river 12/05/93 3rd Ave from 130th to 6th 2/11/94 3rd Ave line from 6th to Park Row Note that at 125th and Third, the north-south cables were located below the original east-west ones. End of cable operation (the following day electric operation began): 9/10/99 125th Street from river to river and Amsterdam 10/22/99 3rd Ave from 130th to 65th 11/18/99 3rd Ave line from 65th to Park Row (65th to 6th electric and 6th to Park Row horse starting 11/19, 6th to Park Row electric from 11/24
Jack May corrected me in that The Bowery and Park Row had four tracks.
The line that came closest to being an interurban in the Third Avenue system was the New Rochelle (at the NYNH&H Sta.) - Subway (E. 241st St. and White Pl. Rd-Av.) line which connected The Bronx, Mt. Vernon, Pelham, and New Rochelle. But this was all paved in-street track. The Yonkers "5" line, Neperhan Avenue, was wholey within Yonkers, but, after TARS' two East River bridge lines quit, had the only revenue track of the system not in pavement.
The northern terminal:
And returning to Manhattan, we saw 180 at Park Row City Hall in an earlier posting von this thread. Here it is adjacent to the main shop and carhouse at 65th Street, with the Elevated's 67th Street Station in the background:
Changing ends at the Foot of Main Street, fan-trip or regular "7" car to Mt. Vernon, while a long-distance New York Central train speeds through the Yonkers Station without stopping.
The following photo was sent me as taken as a screenshot. Does anyone know who was the photographer? Just possibly may have been myself, and a previous posting has another identical "K" car at the same location, 125th St. and 3d Av.
There is something very unusual about this photo. 125th & 3rd is the south end of the "K," as it is for the replacement M100 bus today. Usually, a "K" would turn the corner, change ends, use the spring-loaded trailing crossover, and return to 125th Street for the run to Marble Hill, Broadway and W. 225th Street. So why is somebody boarding the car? Does he plan to ride north although boarding at a southbound car-stop? Or is about to be told by the operator not to board? Or is the car a pull-out, headed for the 3rd Avenue & 65th Street Carhouse?
[
daveklepper There is something very unusual about this photo. 125th & 3rd is the south end of the "K," as it is for the replacement M100 bus today. Usually, a "K" would turn the corner, change ends, use the spring-loaded trailing crossover, and return to 125th Street for the run to Marble Hill, Broadway and W. 225th Street. So why is somebody boarding the car? Does he plan to ride north although boarding at a southbound car-stop? Or is about to be told by the operator not to board? Or is the car a pull-out, headed for the 3rd Avenue & 65th Street Carhouse?
Are there 2 levels of elevated track in the photo?
Yes, the two local track are n the first level, and the bi-directtional, signalled, south in AM, north in PM, express track above.
Its platforms are directly over the local tracks.
This was typical of Manhattan elevated express stations, often called "hump stations."
125th St., 3rd Ave., was an exception, in that north of the station, the express track continued on an upper level to the upper level of the 4-track double-level bridge over the Harlem River.
See the thread on Remembering the Third Avenue Elevated.
Also, on this thread, one of my previously posted photos shows 199 turning the corner possibly just moments after the screen-shot photo, so unless other information is available, I'll assume a missing photo has been returned to me.
AT Third Avenue and 65th Street:
Formr 59th Street Manhattan conduit car 628 at a Bronx location to be determined, and ex-Third Avnue Manhattan conduit car 104 entering The Bronx on the 207th Street Fordham Road Crosstown:
daveklepper ...ex-Third Avnue Manhattan conduit car 104 entering The Bronx on the 207th Street Fordham Road Crosstown:
...ex-Third Avnue Manhattan conduit car 104 entering The Bronx on the 207th Street Fordham Road Crosstown:
What bridge is the trolley crossing? I assume it is over the Harlem River.
Correct, and usually called the 207th Street Bridge.
Third Avenue and E. 86th Street, 124 on the line for which it was built:
Former conduit car 127 on Tremont Avenue Line on Burnside Avenue approaching University Avenue:
Former conduit car replacing convertabils on the 167th Si. Crosstown approaching the Washington Bridge to West 181st Street, Manhattan:
And this previously "unknown location" is on Burnside Avenue west of Webster Avenue.
daveklepper Third Avenue and E. 86th Street, 124 on the line for which it was built:
I presume that is the 3rd Avenue El above the trolley tracks. Which came first, and were they competitors, at least initally?
Correct. First came the horsecar streetcar, Manhattan's second, after the NY & Harlem on 4th Avenue and lower Park Avenue, ,then came the steam-operated elevated, then conversion of the horsecar line to cable. then cable to conduit electrification, then conversion of the steam elevated line to electricity, then rebuilding of the elevated with a continuous center track, then conversion of the streetcar to bus with tracks above 59th Street kept in service several months for use of the 65th Street shops for Queensboro Bridge cars and K and 125 X put-ins and pull-outs, then abandonment and removal of the elevated.
rc can more easily provide the exact dates.
Note correction to a previous post and insertion of the missing photo.
I presume they were built as competitors. Did they eventually under the same management ?
The Third Avenue line converted to cable in two sections, north of 6th on Dec 4, 1893 and to the Post Office on February 11, 1894. According to Hilton's "Cable Car in America" it required 4350 tons of iron yokes and 46000 barrels of cement. The cable installation was barely complete before TARS started converting other lines to conduit electric operation. The Third Avenue line was converted in 1899. Among cable lines Third Avenue was considered number two in traffic density, after Chicago's State Street line.
Midland Mike: All the lines dikscussed in my posting were built as competitors. For a short time, all streetcar lines were leased to the Metropolitan Railway, but reverted to the originsal owners shofrtly after that company entered receivership.
Unification in Manhattan between surface and rapid transit took place well after bus conversion and even after end of the South Ferry - Chatham Square part of the Third Avbenue Elevated.
Conduit cars equipped with poles (1947) on the 161st-163rd St. Crosstown, probably on West 155th Street Manhattan just west of 8th Avenue, the Polo Grounds, and the McdCoombs Dam Bridkge to The Bronx, where 186 is headed, with the end point the destination sign shows as Hunts Point. 127 will get as far as Amsterdam Avenue.
Two on the "T" on Amsterdam Avenue
Conduit car as intended as built on Third AvenueL
Jan. - March 1947 some ex-Broadway-42nd Street "Huffliners" were used on the "K" before being sold to Sao Paulo, Brazil:
While some ex 59th-Street cars got poles and joined the similar cars in The Bronx, here just west of Bruckner and University:
while others sayed as conduit cars a few months more and were used on the Third & Amsterdam line, evntually also getting poles, with some going to Vienna in 1949.
2nd car of a two-car fan-trip, photo from the rear-window of the first car. Not sure whether this is ibna residential section on the Tuckahoe Road line in Yonkers.
Regukar route 8, Riverdale Avenue, car at the south end of this single-track, one passing siding, two car Yonkers line, the north end at Main Street. The difference in paving marks the New York City (The Bronx) - Yonkers boundery. As far as I know, this line never ran south into New York City.
That paving change makes an unmistakable demarcation line! My late father-in-law was a Yonkers kid, he probably knew exactly where it was.
More from the fan-trip, Nererhan Avenue Line (One may need additional work.)
But the middkle photo is at the south terminal of the "8" Riverdale Avenue Line. (The New York City lborder.):
Back to Manhattan, and it is 1937, and 555 is still unpainted to demonstrate that 551 - 600 are indeed aluminum. At 121st and Broadway, 555 is northbound, and Union Theological Seminary is on the west side of Broadway.
To the Brnx, the first streetcar that I actually ran. on the Bailey Avenue line.
The north terminal was at W 231 and Broadway, and previous photos show a second-hand car there.
Enhanced side-view?
Looking NE on Westchester Avenue, with the edlevated structure still used by the Lexington Avenue "6" train. Year 1939 home-built 651 was normally used on the "Pelhsm Bar Parkway.T" Tremont & Burnside Avernues Line, but here carries a removable plate X - 167th Street Crioxsxtowsn. Westchester Avenue is its eastern terminal. Eds are chanhged on the northbound track also used by Westchester Avenue "A" cars to Pelham Bay Parkway.
185 is at the intersection where 125th turns from going directly west to a nrthwest alignment. Third Avenue had a horsecar, then battery-car line that used the connecting street south-east to 110th Street, and then 110th to the East River. Note that the eastbound switchpoint has not been removeed, even in 1947, more than 20 years after the switch ceased being used.
eastbo
Interior of the 65th Street and Third Avenue Carhouse, main floor:
301 - 400 were built in the 3rd Av. & 65th St. Shop in 1936 - 1937. 301-390 were pole cars, mostly assigned to Yonkers, some to the "A" New Rochelle - Subway, and 5 or 6 to Ogden Avenue, The Bronx. 391 - 400 were Manhattan conduit cars, initially serving with some of the 101 - 200 cars on Broadway - 42nd Street, but beginning in 1948 replaced by the double-end Peter-Witt "Huffliners" and transfered to 3rd and Amsterdam ("T") and 125th St St. Nich & B;way, ("K" for Kingsbridge).
At Amsterdam & 145th St., both the T and the K crossed the conduit & wire 149th St. Crosstown X. Connecting curves were used by the one-car, every 45-minutes B'way-145th St. line.
also posted on the Remembering the Third Avenue Elevated thread:
A Joe Franks picture, looking east at the Elevated's Fordham Road Station. The Third Avenue Transit sweeper and relocated ex-Manhattan Streetcar are both on one od the two stub tracks that remain from the long-gone 3rd Avenue Bronx streetcar line, not on the Fordham Road tracks used by the X 207-Fordham Crosstown, and C Bronx and Van Courtland Park regular cars. Others assumed that the train of composites on the Elevated's center track is a Through Express from 241 St. to City Hall, but both morning and evening Through Expresses operated on the local track of the correct direction, since they made all stops north of Tremont Avenue. Instead, it is morning Through Express equipment running light returning from City Hall to its regular lay-up location on the center track between Fordham Road and Gun Hill Road:
South end of the Southern Boulevard Line at 133rd Street and north end, on tracks shared by the "C" Bronx and Van Courtland Parks line, at Bronx Park Wesr and Fordham Road. 668 lost its oriignial trucks as applied to the 646-685 cars and now rides on trucks intended for the 626-645 Manhattsn cars, which got poles for Bronox service in April 1947, like 629 behind, now at Branford (www.shorelinetrolley.oorg). All these cars were built in 1939 and were the last new streetcars for New York City. (The Brooklyn PCCs came in 1936, and the second-hand New Bedford cars in 1947 for Queensboro Bridge.)
Post deleted
Regarding above posts deleted..
There were incidents of catcher-ropes breaking in Brooklyn, old cars re-activated for WWII icreased riswersip and one line's restoration. But 128. the entire 101-200, 391-400, and 6236-645 ex-Manhattan conduit cars received new trolley ropes.
More Third Avenue Transit photos:
A Southern Blvd. car on Boston Road, north of the intersection with Southern Blvd. appraching West Farms Car House:
381 operating as a Bailey Avenue car:
Different day, as a Boston Road car:
Two of the same car on the siding adjacent to the West Farms Carhouse:
140 on Boston Road near the West Farms Car House:
352 at Southern Boulevard and--- E. 152nd St.? E. 162nd St.?
Ex-Manhattan 140 near West Farms Carhouse on Boston Road and ex-Ogden Avenue with bright sunlight and the elevated structure's shadows maximizing contrast:
A much earlier posting on this thread does show 140 as a Manhattan conduit car.
Apologies for the duplicate photo. But here are three more.. All three already had photos posted, but in different locations and even in conduit service in Manhattan. 114 and 391 were originally conduit cars. All three cars were homebuilt lightweightds. built 1935-1936.
On Boston Road looking north south of the intersection where the 2 and 5 on the elevated structure turn from Southern Boulevard to Boston Road
Further south, looking south, on Boston Road
And here the B stands for Bailey Avenue, not Boston Road. (TATS had 4 Bs, 2 Ts, 2 Vs, 2 Ss, 2As, and 7 Xs.)
Two more. One aside West Farms carhouse, with an odd sign on Westchster Avenue , the A line, but I suppose this operator's assignment took him to the Tremont Avenue line, as well. Consequently, the defaced dash sign.
I'd heard of that hell-bound train, but not this.
"He came awake with an anguished roar/And prayed and prayed on that barroom floor/And his prayers and vows were not in folly/For he never rode that hell-bound trolley"
One technically good photo at Bronx Park West and Fordham Road, a Souther Boulevard car adjacent to the bus replacement of the Fordham - 207th St. Croostown. And one that could be better on 125th Street looking west.
Regarding the bend in 125th Street, Henry Raudenbush supplied this current map:
In the photo and my memory. La Salle went through to join 125th St. St. Nicholas Ave. is a through street, 11th -168th Street, but it has lots of curves.
Note the signs of the switch removed the horsecar-then-battery line that branched off 125th using Hancock Place (was at one time Manhattenville vAvenue) and St. Nicholas Avenue to 110th Street, then East to 1st Avenue
More 125th St., Martin Luther King Blvd., today. Looking west, west of the bend, with the high station of the Broadway IRT in the background:
And the rear of a car from Marble Hill turning onto 3rd Avenue to reverse at a crossover, just south of the intersection, or to proceed south to the 65th Street Carhouse.
65th Street Carhouse interior:
Jack May photo of 629 at Branford:
After a short period in 1937, year of construction tn the 65th Street shop, when it was a conduit car in Manhattan, 381 ran with poles on Ogden Avenue, The Bronx (both ends of that route in Manhattan, W. 155th & Amsterdam Avenue and W. 181st & B'way) until Summer 1947. Whenb that line went bus, it was on Boston Road, shoewn in thne next two photos, before moving to Yonkers.
Fan-trip car at Laake & Neperhan on the Lake Av. connector between the "5," Neperhan and "6" Tuckahoe Rd. Lines.
Picture taken a few moments before the above picture;
two more on Yonkers' Riverdale Avenue:
from Henry Raudenbush:
The name of that organization was Metro Transit Club. The upper photo is (I think) southbound on Neperhan Avenue, the "5" Line. I thought the lower one was in New Rochelle on the loop cicling the downtown area, with a stop at the eralroad station, but I may be mistaken, and it may be another Yonkers photograph.
Corrections made to previous captions from tnformation from Henry Raudenbush
Same location, south terminal nof Yonkers' Riverdale Avenue Line at the New York City Line, as the photo of regular "8" car 354 ear;ier. At the north end of the line-up, looking south, fan-trip cars 371 and 327, with regular car 354 at the rear:
On the "6" Tuckahoe Road Line on Walnut Street just north of Yonkers Avenue, with Pond Road entering from the left. Formerly, end of double track from Yonkers Avenue at this point.
Note caption correction for preceding photo.
Here, the north end of the Tuskahoe Road Line at the New York Central Putnam Division station at the intersection of Tuckahoe Road and Railroad Avenue. Anyone knoiw the name of the station?
And one more Riverdale Avenue:
Just a guess but it looks like the station name was Dunwoodie (MP 8.09).
Thanks! Two on the northern oasrt of Warburton Avenue, the first of which may have already been posted much earlier.
About a half-mile north of Main Street, end of double track on Warburton Avenue:
The junction on Main Street with both Warburton avenues to the right, (1 line), double-track, and Riverdale Avenue (8), left.
Four Yonkers Gettys Square pictures:
372 I think on Neperhan Avenue between Elm Street, north of Yonkers Avenue and Gettys Square. (I can be correctd),, and 384 on Neperhan Avenue looking north from the intersection with Yonkers Avenue, tracks for the 7 on thee right, bottom of the photograph.
The location of 384 was confirmd by both Henry Raudenbush and Russel Jackson. What is unusual is that 384 sports a "3" sign, but south bound on the "5" line. I surmise that this may have been a sprcial servic, possibly at factory closing time, for the factoris at Lake Street, heading to 242nd St. & Broadway (IRT Subway Terminal) anf thus displaying the 3 sign for its southbound run. It may have even gone north on "6" anf used the Lake Street connecting track to run south on 5.
Two more in Yonkers. A '4" Mclean Avenue car from Woodlawn-Jerome avenue headed to the Foot-of-Main Street at the Central's Yonkers Station, and a "5" headd from their to Neperhan and Tomkins Avenues, both east of Gettys Square on New Main Stret. Then a northbound McLean Avenue "4" on Cntral Park Avenue, where the tracks were apart, leaving the two passing lanes between them.
333 "4" and 355 "5"
Russ Jackson:
The photo is looking into New Main Street at Getty square. The 4 (inbound & outbound) used New Main and the 5 & 9 used New Main only outbound. Not far along New Main the 5 & 9 switched off and ran on Nepperhan to Elm, where the 9 diverged and the 5 continued straight out on Nepperhan. Both returned inbound along with the 6 & 7. In theory the 9 could have returned via New Main, but the film indicates otherwise. It also shows a derail on route 9 not shown on the ERA map. There was once a line 10 connecting the 4 and the 7 near the race track. Don't know when it disappeared. The 6 once ran all the way to Tuckahoe..
Jack May:
The '10' was a continuation of the Union Railway's Jerome Avenue line, which ran from 155th and Amsterdam to Yonkers Avenue (the racetrack) via Jerome Avenue, which becomes Central Park Avenue at the City Line. The 4 McLean Avenue line crossed it at McLean Avenue and continued to via McLean Avenue to Bronx River Road/Webster Avenue, and then down to the Bronx Park Third Avenue el station. In 1921, after the Dual Contracts, the system was rationalized, as almost all of the Jerome Avenue line's traffic went to the elevated portion of the IRT subway, and a certain amount of the Third Avenue el's traffic to Bronx Park moved to the IRT's White Plains Road line. The Jerome Avenue streetcar line was discontinued and the 4 assumed its final routing, turning on to Central Park Avenue/Jerome Avenue, but only as far as the subway's Woodlawn terminal. The trackage up Central Park Avenue north of McLean was abandoned as well, and that was the end of the '10.' It is possible that the original '4' was cut back to the intersection of McLean and Webster from the Bronx Park el station before 1921--I'll have to check. I recall reading somewhere that only one car was assigned to the 9 and it may returned over via the 6 and 7 to avoid the steep downhill grade.
"4" 333, Henry Raudenbush:
Two more Yonkers photos: (1) North end of the Warburton Avenue Line at the Hastings Town Line, and (2) Mclean and Broadway, the diverging tracks doing to Woodlawn at Jerome Avenue, uused by the "4," and the "1" pictured cintinuing to Broadway an d 242nd Street.
Three along Warburton Avenue. Note the trolley-wire signal-control contactor and the Nachod signal:
343 on its way on McLean Avenue from the Woodlawn Jerome Avenue IRT terminal to the Foot of Main Street, Yonkers, adjacent to the NYCentral Station there. Jack May pointed out that McLean Avenue has lots of turns. But maybe someone more familiar with Yonkers will know the exact lication by identifying the gas station. As shown on a previous posting, McLean terminates westward at Broadway, and north of that intersection "4" runs with 1, 2, and 3. But it diverges about 3/4-mile south of Gettys Square to head northeast on New Main Street and enters Gettys Square from the east.
After the December 1947 Blizzard, Fordham Road, then Southern Boulevard.
See Trains Transit Forum for the Sweeper
Autumn, 1946, at Columbia University, view looking north, tweweked from a screenshot. Streetcarservice ende3d at end of 1946, replaced by M104 bs, The 1904 IRt 116th St. Station headhouse has also gone, with the subway stairs and escalators now on the sidewalks,
You do realize that we're going to have to get you to write a book for us? You have so much knowledge and so many stories that deserve to be collected in a comprehensive survey of traction and transit.
Same me, different spelling!
Making hidden photos aailable would seem to be a higher priority for the present?
And Kalmbach does have two stories of mine in their files. Meanwhile, please visit a website not in any way competitive with this one:
www
proaudioencyclopedia
com
and read:
David Read's biography
Manfred Schroeder's Frequuency Shifter (and a chance meeting in a railway lounge car)
And I can return email as an attachment a manscript if you email me at
ddaveklepper1@gmail.com
Corrected the email address,
daveklepper1@gmail.com
Apologies for the missing "p."
I'll probably find some more negatives to be scanned, repaired, and posted zs positives on this thead. I think I may have taken more photos of this type of streetcar than anyone else, anywhere. I suspect that many of the color photos of this type of streetcar that are circulating on the web are also actually my photos. Moving to Israel 26 years ago, I left a box of slides with the Electric Railroaders Association. A CD was issued that included some or most of these slides. I have yet to receive the CD.
However, most of my good photos would not have been possible without the assistance I received from older ERA members when I was a teenager. Major organizer of independent photo excursions and travel to distant fan-trips was John Stern. Others who helped were Walter Druck, Harold Geisseheimer, Herman Rinke, Lester Barnett, and certainly John Kneiling and Everett White, the two who organized most of the New York area fan-trips and allowed me to often play switchman and trolley-pole retriever.
I wish I remembred the name of the Irish-American Thirf Avenue operator who gave me my first taste of Heaven-on-Earth with my right hand on a K-Type controller and my left foot on the brake, "dead-man's control," line-switch, door-closing pedal.
On Broadway, Washington Heights, somewhere between W. 181 and`W. 200 Streets. southbound, from the side window of a northbound, May, 1947.
o
167th St. Crosstown, east of Webster Ave., Autumn, 1947:
evised caption. 324 on the "New Rochelle - Subway A" route southbound on Pelham's Main bStreet running into Pelhamdale Avenue.
Inspection of an ERA track-map indicates this photo is at the point where Pelhamdale Avenue becomes Main Street, Pelham, within Pelham.
And a correspondant pointed out that my correction of the original photo's tilt lost detail. Also, the Pelham location does not requuire my own addition of a suggestion of a second diverging track, which the tilt coection and the first-thought Westchester Avenue location did require. So here is the photo with further corrections:
Dave
Your location and info is again unfortunately incorrect.
Pelhamdale Avenue does and and never becomes MAIN street in Pelhamdale !!!
Pelhamdale Avenue runs south from its north "T" intersection ending point at 1st Avenue, Village of Pelham - and runs due south and east crossing Colonial Avenue (which is Sanford Blvd in Mt Vernon /aka E.6th St) -- and crosses US-1 which is Boston Post Road in Pelham Manor, and heads southeast and dead ends at Shore Road which becomes Pelham Ave just N/E of the end of Pelhamdale road to it.... by "New York Athletic Club - Travers Island" at what is called Lower Harbor at the mouth of the Atlantic Ocean. See link to google interactive MAP of streets below;
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pelhamdale+Ave,+New+Rochelle,+NY/@40.8972364,-73.8032264,15z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89c28d0f34cbcc1b:0xd6aa8f209d748e11!8m2!3d40.9080132!4d-73.807814?hl=en
You can follow the north start end of Pelhamdale Ave southward to where it ends at Shore Road / Pelham Ave. So that trolley scene is no where along that (Pelhamdale) road or any of its intersections !!
Hi Dave --
I see you again repeatedly bring up that same TARS 324 Trolley scene Photo - so I added my edited version also, the top-most photo under here.
You and anyone else here can plainly see and compare your latest photo editing version (the bottom photo) to the ONE and only photo-edit version I did to the same photo seen at TOP portion of this message. Click on EACH photo to get to an enlarged version.
The red and yellow lines - and yellow circle I drew in to call direct attention so as to show the mushy, snowy, very grainy and poor detail in your (5th attempt ?) editing this photo.
Also note along the top of the stores at left, highlighted between the 2 yellow lines --- the long darker edit patch / line along the stores windows tops area down to the sidewalk, and the above it, a lighter grainier fuzzy appearance of the store facade from above the lower darker part, up towards the roof.
Also note the indicated (between red lines) very fuzzy drawn in by you, trolley wires. And the red boxed area of the very grainy mushy side of the TARS streetcar -- and other grainy indistinguisable items / details marked in lines or boxes. Such as the very now grainy and washed out looking 3 story building just past the rear of the # 324 trolley. And at center right edge of photo, the parked auto and street behind it (seen clearly in my edited version) are, in your edited version, now an unrecognizable grainy mush ! Compare those items to the same ones in my edited photo at top which is far more sharper, clearer, and much more, details which stand out.
I created my edited photo from the original very dark Film NEGATIVE image you provided here a few messages ago. I did NOT use your first edited attempt lighter photo as the basis for creating my image editing as seen at top of this message.
Anyone here can clearly see the difference in sharper details-quality of the, my edited, top photo, compared less-so to your lower edited photo. Why can't you also see the major difference !?? Old saying ... 'if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it, or ruin it ", Dave !
Regards - Joe F
Any one can see the tilt in your version of my photo, which to me is a bad distortion. And the white squares that you inserted into the sky in "my version"are yours, and not in my photo.
I have zero problem with your comparison. Do that as much as you wish. If there is actual improvement, I'll be as happy as you. And so will other readers.
Meanwhile, 1936 or 1937-built 192 at the E. 65th shop where built. It was first iused on B'way-42nd Street, then transferred to Tenth Avenue when the "Huffliners," the double-end Peter Witts 551-625 arrived in 1938. But it went back to B'way in 1941 with wartime passenger loading increase, and curved-side convertables returned to 10th Av, staying there until buses came in November, 1946. When B'way-42 went bus at end of 1946, 192 webnt to Third & Amsterdam ("T") but apparently was not repainted, until moving to the Bronx with trolley poles, runnuing there 'till summer 1948, and then used as a spare in Yonkers to 1952.
Some more Pictures at the East 65th Street car-house and shop where the homemade lightweights were constructed. 123 also made it to the Bronx with trolley-poles added, but I don't think it reached Yo
Hello again Dave
YOU alone are the ONLY person who refuses and can't see the major defects in your TARS 324 A-route car "photo edits" compared to my edited clearer version. All other viewers plainly do.
No one else here, including myself, sees any of your self-imagined "white squares" you claim that I inserted into the sky in "your edit version" of the TARS car 324 photo -- as I never used your "edited photo" image version of the original negative -- to make my much cleared and detailed copy. I used solely the NEGATIVE directly. Those white square are also NOT seen either by anyone in my clearer sharper edited version !! (except you?)
Other readers here already well know and see the improvements in my edit version image over that of yours. I expect they can't understand WHY you "can't" and refuse to see them compared to your version. No one else here sees any distortion you claim, except you, in the very slight tilt in the original photo as shot by the photographer's camera, that you edited out in your edited version --- losing some important photo-perimeter details in that proccess.
PS: Very nice set of newest photos of TARS at E. 65th St & 3rd Ave., -- EXCEPT for this one which your edits (I marked them) defaced. I assume you were 13 years old when these were taken - possibly in 1945, or age 15 in 1947 when the Manhattan TARS line on 3rd Ave ended. And that you did not take the photos yourself. see below --
And again, BELOW -- your same photo just as you edited it and as you posted it, but without my marking to show defects you caused:
WHERE is the EL Column base / footing that your edits washed out at bottom of the nearest left EL Column??!! And note the now mushed-up blurred cobblestone pavement you distorted ahead of the column with its missing base-footing. And what are those other noted edit defects you caused tampering with the original image. All viewers here will see these but you will likely ignore them in denial. WHY !!?
Dave -- do we viewers a favor - Please do SHOW US the ORIGINAL "unedited" photo itself. Can you !??
Again, why not just show the original photo as is - in respect to/for the photographer - with none of your edit-distorted tampering.? A pity !!
THe white squares are now gone ftom your version of my version, THank you, Or possibly a computer was playing tricks on me.
The point is that anyone can see the tilt in your version, but you needed to ouitline in red the tiny wiskers that the jpg format often causes on trolley wire.
Regarding the photo under the Third Avenue Elevated, I'll find the original scan and also follow your suggestion regarding the column base.
Joe, tilts don't bother you and all your many friends. But tilted photos bother me and, for most part poated on these theads, they are my photos. And not once has Nate ever complained to me about any changes I've made to photos he has sent me. You are the only complainer. Rich Allman never ever complains but does, on occasion, give me a further-improved version or suggests further improvement on my part, and I follow his advice.
Hello Dave
I am the only one who constructively commented because I have a lifetime of working professionally in photography and now 20 years of computer skills....documented quite well and known. I even build websites using, writing, HTML code to a blank screen to completely finished pages.
The "white squares" you refer to were NEVER at all in any of my edits on my photo-edited version of that TARS 324 car -- and I did not even see them in your own edits of that same photo. And no one else I shared those Your and my versions) photos with saw them ! SO I really don't know what you are talking about. Show those "white squares" to us here !!
I am the only one commenting so far as - well, someone has to finally step up to the plate and have the integrity to do so -- solely to help and inform you. And I got an email from someone YOU know well, stating same and thanking me.
Most people dont have the integrity or fortitude to confront people who really need constructive advice or guidance, or as in this case, the issue at hand . Nate and I email and phone talk regularly, and so does Russ email me - and we have discussed your edits-issue with them in my favor of my editing skills. And a few others have emailed me in support of my comments and observations on this issue. Its like trying to get witnesses to a crime they actually saw to come forward and get involved --- and usually, generally, very few to NONE come forward, or want to "get involved" -- and yes, I was in law enforcement.
Most people don't WANT to get involved to offer help or advice and then chance to get hissy fits from the person they try to help. Not worth it. You have heard of the SILENT MAJORITY in politics. No one really wants to expose or put themselves or name out in the fore-front to complain about issues publically in media -- except solely to complain privately about issues to each other when socializing. But get that large majority really PO's, and - well, thats how President Trump got elected.
Dave --Here BELOW is that original photo under the EL exactly as you posted and exactly as you edited it --
AND - here BELOW is my FIX of that TARS Trolley under 3rd Ave EL photo -- This is a 2nd edit-version BELOW that I did more intensive edit-work on ... especially the left forward EL column (its base I added and its top arch right curve rebuilt) and more work on the structure. The neg was scratched and had dings and "white-washed out" patches. -- and I removed much of them. I also lightened the image a bit to remove all of the darkness. My final result BELOW:
So as you and all know, click each image to get enlarged view and put their tabs next to each other in the tabs bar at screen top. Then you can flip back and forth to each image to compare.
Perhaps you will finally come to see solely how and why I am trying to help you, show you, etc. With the great and historic photos you have collected (and took) over 75 or so years -- why not you show them in the BEST VISUAL way you can without, umm, unintentionally edit-defacing them ! Per your version of the two photos above here to support that comment.
Best Regards - Joe F
Russ and Nate are very good friends, and if they wished me to bow to all your demands instead of choosing which of your comments are truly helpful, which I do my best to implement, I'm sure they would tell me.
Anyway, here is what you requested and my attempt to get meaningful stantion base data from a badly scratched negative, and the start of a 1948 Yonkers Fan-trip.
I must point out that the stantion base in your improved vesion is not the same as that in my badly-scratched original. Not all Third Avenue stantion bases ended up the same, mostly becaose of repaving.
My posting the original scan here is an exception to the rule. I have very good reasons not to diustribute original scans. Thank you.
The Yonkers fan-trip picture is not sharp, probably because of camera motion due to a distraction while taking the picture. Editing consisted of cropping to remove edge blemishes of unimpofrtant data and some darkening of the sky.
Hello again Dave !
Thanks much for that new information and image - seems you were able to cobble the El column original footing from the negative which your original edits did not. Thus I had no actual detail reference point to work with on my edit - and replicated the large rounded footing style see across the Avenue along the east side of 3rd Ave.
I did manage to correct my edit photo showing the flater low-boy column footing base. See BELOW:
In my having grown up and lived along that El until it was demolished -- and for many years thereafter -- I was keenly aware back then of oddities of the El's construction, including the 2 styles of column bases. The LOWER base style was NOT the result of any roadway repaving. The Avenue was paved with streetcar tracks and cobblestones from the beginning of the El in 1876-78 construction. And never repaved thereafter -- exception being thin coats of blacktop asphalt paving patches here and there over the (after Nov. 1947) abandoned TARS tracks and cobblestones.
Here BELOW is a photo in my immediate neighborhood by friend Lothar Stelter-- I saw this scene countless times then -- looking south from E. 83rd Street along the nearly demolished EL in Nov. 1955. Note the two column base types on the two right side close columns !
As far as Nate and Russ -- they have both agreed with me about the edits issues by emails ... and Nate daily by phone conversations. And I told them directly to TELL YOU by email, and don't just tell me and agree solely with me. I said that to a few others following this. Likely they see your continued "mode of denial" demeanor you present to me on this "editing" issue.
I gave you the basic reasons why many people don't want to get involved in something that will possibly bring agita to them by the person they try to help ! For people like them its better to "see nothing, say nothing, hear nothing, and do nothing" and "saw wood and say nothing" (old sayings).
Best Regrds - Joe F
Thats a great photo of the 3 TARS CARS lined up at about W. 243rd Street on broadway, Bronx !! Those are the type cars I remember riding with my Uncle on the #7 Yonkers Ave. TARS line in 1951-52 before that line was ended. The IRT (# 1 & 3 trains today) EL Terminal Station at W.242nd Street is in background ! NOTE that back then -- the left hand stairway is in its original 1904-built position close to its station house. Many years later the (Broadway) Avenue was widened along its east (left) side and the stairway was moved and relocated further east about 20 + feet eastward onto the new sidewalk of the widened lanes. aAlong with a new covered extension walkway-bridge from the station house to its new location. And remains that way today !
regards - Joe F
I do not know abour Russ; about his view regarding my editing. He is a good friend and I have not heard frion him. Regarding Nate, so far I've received only positive comments about any editing I've done on any photos he has sent me.
That does not mean I will stop trying to do a better job in the future, and I am certain Richard Allman will help me.
Regarding column basis. Note that pavement must be relatively level. but the supporting rock, and most of Manhattan is on rock if my memory is correct, is certainly not always level. This means that often the column supporting an elevated structure does not actually have a real base above the pavement, only what really is only a protecting structure, with the real base below grade.
One loose matter needs to cleared up. Yes, I was 15 when Manhattan streetcar service ended, except for some intrusions of Bronx lines that lasted into 1948, but I had just received my first Leica camera, and used it extensively on streetcars and trains. Unless I specifically state otherwise, all photographs on this thread were taken by me, except that some very few photographs were taken of existing photographs on carhouse office walls, 551 in the Gardner Avenue Yard and any of 555 in exposed finished aluminum. I had begun photographing streetcars and trains even earlier, with borrowed equipment. See the photo of Huffliner 600 earlier on this thread.
Another view of fan-trip 357 at Broadway and West 242nd Street: I was 16.
Former Manhattan conduit 1936-built 121. with poles for Bronx oprtation in February 1947, , here on a fan-trip, I think in New Rochelle (but can possibly be corrected):
Two regular cars on Yonkers' Park Avenu, and one at the northern terminal of thev line. But 384 ran on Ogden Avenue, The Bronx, before that line was bussed, and then on other Bronx lines, before moving to Yonkers. Earlier pictures on this thread illustrate this.
McLean Avenue, where it passed under the Mew York Central Putnam Division Getty's Square Branch, probably photographed from one of the abutments of the removed single-track (with third rail) bridge. The McLean Avenue Line, also shown in previous photos, connected Yonkers withb the Jerome Avenue - Woodlawn Subway Terminal.:
Joe Frank is resposible for the correction to the caption of the photo in the previous posting. (Not Park Avenue)
Thanks Dave -- and yes, you are likely correct -- that photo may have been taken from the south side high Putnam Getty Branch RR Stone Abutment that likely matched the one seen across the Avenue -(top center of photo in the woods) - it may have still been there at that time (1947-49 or so) but was removed and the area (land) of the Putnam RR R-o-W high embankment was excavated to street level and the flat land re-developed with houses and commercial real estate. Regards - Joe F
A previously-posted photo here corrected. Former Manhattan--conduit 130, now with poles on the 16st Street Crosstown at Yankee Stadium, Autumn 1947. One year earlier would have been a cionvertable, One year later, a bus.
This photo (161st St) is a better re-edit job than the original posted one --- good job ! Joe F
The same streetcar prior to its conversion from conduit to trollet polr, here at Third Avenue and East 66th Street. March, 1947, last month of the "T" beforer busses. Bhf fne track here to the north continued in use through June for "K" and 125th "X" that put-out and pull-in that would carry passengers.
"
Dave -- this is NOT 3rd Avenue at or near E. 85th Street at all !! . I grew up by the El in that area and street (the E.85th St area) location. Check your photos again -- to see if you can ascertain the exact location. ALSO NOTE -- the curving streetcar track in the bottom forground of the photo where it branches off the 3rd Ave streetcar mainline tracks. That would be a clue. Most likely I believe that is the uptown EL's E. 67th Street Local Station just a block above the TARS E. 65th-66th Street carbarn area ! (Joe F)
You are ciorrect. I posted a wrong photo. I'll try to find the right one.
Too much in a hurry because iof very limited time to allow access to Imgur.
The photo is at vthe 65th Street carhouse.
Glad to help out. Am interested in seeing that other photo that is in the E. 85th St Area of the 3rd Ave EL --- my hometown area when growing up. regards - Joe F
So far, photo of 130 at 85th appears missing, but I had also scanned one of 633, moved from the 59th "X' to the "T" in November 1946, before becoming a pole car for The Bronx in April 1947. I know it's your neighbiorhood becase of the beautiful clock on the west sidewalk. Is it still there?
The yorkville clock on east side of 3rd Ave between E. 84th & E.85th Streets is still there -- It was removed 10 or so years ago and completely and beautifully restored, and functioning again, and replaced back on the site it stood. However, its top mopunted 3 pawnbroker balls were removed and never replaced as the pawn show (Sterns) has been gone since the 1970's. Here BELOW is a 2011 view of the clock looking north due west along 3rd Ave, topwards the NW corner of E. 85th St & 3rd Ave (with the hi-rise) (Joe F)
Here is the photo of 633 as a conduit cae at 85th Street:
Dave -
This photo above is looking NORTH from the N/W corner of E. 85th Street along the downtown local track of the El along the west side of 3rd Avenue. Likely around 1945-1947 period. The CLOCK at left - long gone since 1962 when it and the entire block from 85th to 86th streets was demolished to clear way for the Park Lane Towers hi-rise luxury apartments ( opening scenes of the TV show "The Jeffersons" ). Seen is the BECK SHOE store sign on a building just above E. 86th Street towards E.87th St. The station in distance is the Downtown E. 89th Street El Station. The southbound TARS trolley is stopped by the N/W corner of 3rd & E.85th St. This section of the El from just below E. 76th St station thru to E.84th St Station and north to the 99th St yards -- was built in 1878 new and with its lattice girder fabricated center track as seen in the photo. The El by time of this photo was about 65 years old !
The famous "Yorkville Clock" originating from 1898 was at time of above photo, and still is ACROSS the avenue at the East side of 3rd Ave --here is a photo of it below as restored some years ago -- view looking N/W towards E. 85th St along 3rd Ave ---------- Regards - joe F
Again, you are absolutely correct. the proof is the direction of 85th Street one-way street sign in those photos that show it, since the street is.westbound Such evidence trumps my memory, despte my having been in the location possibly a thousand times, using the 84th Street 3rd Avenue Elevated station, and the Third Avenue Transit "T" as well as put-in "Ks." But seldom, if ever, after 1949.
My parents and I also frequented two excelent restaurants (one may have been Kosher) east of 3rd on 86th.
Please post the photo with the elevated train with the clock, both here and on one on Third Avenre Elevated threads. (photo you sent, with now some mild editin)
I see have not yetv replied to Joseph Frank's claim that there never any streetcar tracks joining the main "A: New-Rochelle - Subwazy Line where Broadway becomes Pelhamdale Avenue in Oelham.
I based my analysis on cojmparing the ERA's 1945 Yonkers-and-adjacent-areas Third Avenue Trackmap, and a street map of the areas. By the time the map was prepared, the single diverging track was already disused, ditto in my 1947 photo. This track had already lost its wire, and paving-over removed any evidence of a former single-track streetcar line.
On Current maps Pelhamdale Ave if it was called that, dead ends at the high embankment of the former NYW&B Port Chester Branch along 1st Street. And ends there. Going SOUTH from the NYW&B -- Pelhamdale Avenue CROSSES what is called COLONIAL AVENUE which becomes SANFORD BLVD. just past, (left, west of), the Hutchinson River Parkway. Sanford Blvd continues due west and crosses over the NYW&B E.6th Street Station after Sanford crosses S. Fulton Ave. in Mt. Vernon.
Pelhamdale Avenue crosses COLONIAL AVE (aka Sanford Blvd further west) and heads at a S/E slight angle curve down to cross US 1 and soon the New England Thruway - and ends at a T intersection at Pelham Road right off the LI Sound and Glen Island Park.Colonial Avenue - if you drive thru it in Pelham in N/E direction from Sanford Blvd, - does not have any commercial real estate as seen that corner seen in your TARS "A" Route Car # 324 photo you wrote was at 163rd St & Westchester Avenue, Bronx. (very wrong there, Dave, as I proved via my cleaner edited version of that photo below:
And the slight "tilt" of the original photo you keep incessantly bringing up, has absolutely NO relevance or bearing what so ever as to determining the route or location of that curved track to the right -- or what it was for !!
The old TARS MAP shows, not in proper full near scale length (more as a greatly compressed length) or perspective -- we see a set of dotted lines coming off what is upon the TARS map then called Main Street -(Colonial Ave on present maps) - into a street called Drake and then down to PELAHM (Road?) and to Glen Island. That dotted line set means long ago gone, abandoned tracks. There IS NO Drake street, whatever, on the present maps !! My original purpose was to prove false, that your original and dogged assumption that the TARS # 324 "A" Route car was at E. 163rd & Westchester Ave, Bronx. In using current street roads by Google Inter-active Maps..."driving / moving" N/E along Sanford Blvd to Colonial Ave., which becomes Kings Highway and crosses under the New England Thruway and ends at MAIN STREET which is US 1 and not the MAIN STREET shown on the TARS map. SO either the TARS map is drawn sloppily or partially flawed in its depiction or whatever. !Follow the roads I named above -- as they appear on the current map (interactive Google version you can move around on is LINKED HERE -- https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pelhamdale+Ave+%26+1st+St,+Village+of+Pelham,+NY+10803/@40.8928721,-73.8434444,14z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89c28d6d6d91dd7b:0x4e14c84980bbd783!8m2!3d40.9094435!4d-73.8078286?hl=en ----- and SEE what I am writing about. According to street views presently -- there was no indication of trolley tracks / line on Pelhamdale down to Glen Island -- or on Colonial Ave. to Kings Highway. And there was no where that your corner retail stores scene with the TARS 324 trolley, could be found on any of those current streets (Sandford, Colonial, Sanford or Pelhamdale) because they are all highly residential lined only. So exactly WHERE that TARS 324 Car photo is / was taken that you provided (and I edit-fixed from your poorer edited version) - God only knows ! regards - Joe F
1. Current conditions are not necessarily the same with regard to commercial development in 1947. Ditto. other conditions.
2. In 1947, the A Westechester Avenuec Line. was operated exclusively by convertables, and not by home-built Third Avenue Lightweights until late in the year, when ex--Manhattan 101-200 series began replacing the convertables.
3. 324, in the photo I took, was always a Westchester car, and did not run on routes mainly serving The Bronx.
So a reader can do a detailed analysis of his or her own on the difference between the (admittadly blurrey) A New-Rochell Subway sign and an A Westchester Avenue sign, here posted at Westchester Avenue and Pelham Bay Park:
Here is one of the ex-Manhattan cars that replaced the convertables on Westchester Avenue. But I failed to remove the tilt here, and thus preserved the sharpness. There is no way you can fit Westchester Avenue into the blurred image of the A sign on 324. Only New Rochelle - Subway fits 324's sign
.
Great Photo dave - and no really one cares about the very slight tilt -- but the SHARPNESS is the most important detail!! Its looking due N/E on Westchester Avenue near Bergen Avenue - and the RKO Royal Theater I well remember from the 1950's & 60's until later closed down due to crime. McCrorys at left is a 5&10 store which goes left to the corner of 3rd Ave & Westchester Avenue where this 3 block short "connector" 2-track El which connects from the IRT Subway West Farms El (2 blocks to right) with the Bronx 3rd Ave EL at E.150th Street / Westchester Avenue Junction 1/2 block left, west ...just above the 3rd Ave EL's E. 149th Street express station. the trolley will pass along to the left, west, under the EL, cross that switch there, stop, unload and reload new passengers, and take the swich track seen for the trolley's reverse move run to get to the uptown / outbound track.
Thanks. There were five 301s that did regularly handle a primarily Bronx route, the Ogden Avenue Line that had both its 155th Street and Amsterdam Avenue and 181st and Broadway Terminals in Manhattan, but 324 was never one of them. And occasionaslly one of the "O" cars would stray to one of the other Bronx lines before being moved to be based primarily at the Foot-of-Main-Street, Yonkers, Carhouse, to assist getting convertables replaced with lightweights on the Mt. Vernon - 229th St. White Plains Avenue (Road) "B" line.
Then there were 391 - 400, which were built as conduit-only cars, and ran on Manhattan's "T," "K," and in Spring 1947 on 125th "X." These got poles, Summer 1947, and some did run The Bronx routes before moving to Yonkers in Spring and Summer 1948.
Here is 381, one of the Ogden Avenue cars, northbound at the north end of Ogden Avenue and the east end of Washington Bridge, leading to West 181st Street Manhattan
And I do hope to correct the tilt without losing sharpness.
Herewith
And here is Richard Allman's superb realization of the Third Avenue and 85th Street clock photograph:
Just a reminder that 187 was originally a conduit car, but did spend much of its operating time under an elevated structure, but on Third Avenue, and not Westchester Avenue. Why no "T"? sign on the dash? Probably painted over jusxt before receiving poles for servikce in The Bronx, then yanked from that process to briefly serve on the 125th Street Crossatown, and no removable sign was availabl,e at the moment.
A repeat poosting from the first page of this thread.
Dave -- Again, sorry - I deleted and re-wrote this message herein. I posted the photo (on a new reply) from my collection that you had for the basis of your and Allman's edits. As such, both edits were not bad at all --- but why edit at all !
Perhaps I sent that B&W photo your way via private email instead - I will check.
(I CHECKED, and yes, I did email it your way)
Dave--- Sorry !! I have deleted and re-written this message -- The mix-up was that My Sept. 26th message to you was a reply to you about the OTHER clock in YOUR photo view north along the EL on WEST side of 3rd Ave. at E. 85th Street. And that was what and why I also posted the color photo of the Yorkville clock. I apologize for the mis-understanding and my now removed and re-written comments. The process of following posts and threads in this forum is archaic at best -- and can cause confusion. Because there is no visual direct attached connection to the original post a person is replying to !! However, the 3rd Ave El B&W photo I refer to with the original Yorkville Clock is a somewhat cropped version of the original in my COLLECTION for decades and not from the net. I EMAILED you my cropped version of the original photo - and then it gets replaced by two edited versions - one from you and one from Allman. Actually, they are not bad either ! Here is the ORIGINAL photo from my webpage archive site that I sent you by email -- but I only see your edited & Allman edited versions. And not the one I sent that you originally posted in a message and stated was from "Joseph Frank" -- the original from me as shown below;
Here is our joint effort to make the clock photo as true to life as any black-and-white can be. And iI found the lost photo that I wanted to post when I posted a 65th and 3rd by mistake. The corner sign here is for East 85th Street, Joe's neighborhood, and we see the uptown 84th Street Station (Corrction, 86th):
Hello Dave --- I unraveled the mystery ! Of course you are correct about removing photos of someone else. However, I found out HOW you got the photo -- I EMAILED it to you Sept. 27th -- from my Archive collection. Thus, sorry - and my error, as I DID NOT post it originally here at this forum....my error. Thus it CAME FROM ME regardless ---from no where else. Doesn't matter if I took it, if I was given a copy by the photographer, or whatever. I have over 850000 photos in my archive - and over 500000 color slides --- many my own, many from unknown sources thru the past 5 + decades. well, again, at least the (your and Allman) edits were pretty good I must say --- but WHY -- what was wrong with my original I show BELOW ? Thats' all !
Hi Dave---
That "lost" photo you just posted -- yes -- I saw that scene countless times but with STS Red & Cream MACK buses instead of the trolleys. My old neighborhood. BUT -- the corner sign is for EAST 86th STREET (not 85th St as you wrote). Nostalgic photo for me -- I know all the stores in that scene -(everything seen is gone presently) - which IS looking south along EAST sidewalk line of 3rd Avenue along the EL -- across wide East 86th Street -- the wide crosstown east / west main street thru Yorkville with all the European & German restaurants, dance halls, small specialty meat and bake and other shops, etc. . Note the cheap temporary plywood black & white painted "safety squares" - a crude early attempt to mark and make more visible, EL pillars in the middle of crosstown streets. Later the columns themselves were stencil-painted uniformly with black & white bands on the steelwork. Here is LINK to image of same scene along East sidewalk in present times! --- (COPY & PASTE the url) --- https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7787931,-73.9538752,3a,90y,227.38h,92.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7BCV3Il-CfzuCRSM8Cz2fQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
I have received a complaint about possible copyright issues in this thread. While some of the photos I see here may be in the public domain, if there is doubt, don't post it here without obtaining permission from the copyright holder. The copyright holder is the photographer or their heirs; having an original photo or slide in your collection does not make it your photo. Unless you are the original photographer or have permission of the photographer, don't post them here. And certainly don't copy, alter, and repost them without that permission, either. Thank you.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
Steve: Are there specific photos where a complaint is important enough that you wish me to use the edit button for photos that I posted, and only I posted, to remove them? I have assumed that photos sent me, without specific instructions regarding this issue, are in the public domain already. Most photos I receive have specific instructions one way or the other. In the future, I'll assume they are not in the public domain if they arrive without instructions.
Regarding those photos that are in the public domain, many are faded, torn, and/or badly tilted. Don't I have the right to fix them before posting?
Joe, the pawnbroker symbol has three balls, not two. So restoration work on the photo included the use of available evidence as to what the scene actually looked like. Details of the MUDC 6-car elevated train are more visible, the sky's clouds are actually seen, signs more readible, and the photo, except possibly for the restoration of the top ball, is certainly closer to what the original photo was before a faded version was available in a screen-shot or Internet posting.
But if Steve wishes me to remove any photo, I will.
I regard all my postings as a service, not any attempt to demonstrate skills superior than others. There is stiil a lot of old stuff of mine to be scanned, and that is what I'll spend my time and money on addressing henceforth.
Steve: Is there any reason why Joe Frank cannot start his own thread on this Forum to display his own collection, to the extent where possible copyright is not violated? But, of course, contributions from others showing Third Avenue Lightweights on this thread, Joe's or anyone else, that meet Steve's requirements, are always most welcome.
The vast, very vast, number of photos on this thread were taken by me. Most of the few others, such as those of 555 in unpasinted aluminum and 551 at Gardner Avenue, were official Third Avenue Railway photos, distributed for publicity purposes. Some may have been used in copyrighted books, but that does not make them copyrighted photos. Some I obtained as a teenager before they were used in any books.
Dave -- I private emailed you a "closeup" cropped version of original photo of the clock and it has the top single ball (of 3 balls) cut off in the cropping. The "Yorkville" CLOCK LOCATION was the focus, the MAIN point - NOT the EL, the scene, nor the train! The clock was the subject-reason for sending you that cropped photo.
I have the full frame version of that photo with quite a lot more visible in the scene...including the original top 3 balls on the clock! The original point IN MY PRIVATE EMAIL to you - was to heads-up inform you that the so called "Yorkville" clock (as it has been called since the 1970's) was NOT the clock seen - and you referenced - in your 1947 or so photo looking N. to the N/W corner of E. 85th Street, on WEST side of 3rd Ave (and along the downtown track side of the EL) -- But infact was the clock ACROSS THE AVENUE -- just SOUTH of E. 85th Street on the EAST side of 3rd Avenue, along the UPTOWN track side. That photo (my slightly zoomed in version I sent you) had the clock and a train in view.
Then you want to "improve" the photo I sent you and post it on this forum... originally as stated "received from Joseph Frank" by you. Then you edited it and removed my name as provider.... and reposted it -- and then you had to repost it AGAIN as edited "more lifelike" by Mr. Allman.... (well, heh, he edit-artwork added the missing top ball, nicely done as such) However, Allman made the added-in top ball too tall-large and its not round-shaped like the lower 2 balls, as it should be.
The clouds, and details you say on there on the edited version, are ALSO on MY emailed original copy -- and store signs are crisper, sharper and easier to read on mine. All Alman did was to LIGHTEN (fade) the contrast a bit but did not improve any sharpness or MUDC (the train) details -- they are all seen in my original.
You have long had this mental fetish to constantly want to change, or "improve" photos, yours, anyone's, that you (or others) post here --- and you are the only on I ever encounted on many forums or anywhere that continually insists on having to, wanting to, needing to, do that.
If I had not sent you that photo by email, you would never have seen it or known of nor been aware of it. I did NOT give permission (but did not deny as such) for you to take it from my email and use it, change it, edit it, or post it. But you did anyway -- and edited it 2x on this forum. And I warned you here in print previously times to NOT tamper with my photos or any photos I share with you from my archives collection. As I would expect with this photo I shared with you.
Editor Steve is correct in his comments - and I agree with him -- and now you want to upstart and challenge him and his instructions. Dave -- edit YOUR OWN photos you took (or of your collection) --- but leave alone photos posted here by myself and other members. And not be tampering with them...and in some cases, make them worse ! As has been documented here elsewhere.
Joe: I rode the A Line through Pelham many times, about 50, trips to the model railroad at the old beautiful Pelham Manor station, trips by myself or with John Stern, and fan-trips. The route through Pelham was essentially on residential streets, with a few scattered convenience stores and possibly one gas station. There was no "commercial district" in the sense that Mount Vernon and New Rochelle have, The view agrees with my memory.
The disagreement between the ERA map and the results of your research may be entirely the result of changes over time.
And if the abandonment-of-use track had not still physically been in place, it probably would not have been shown on the map. There were other local lines that connected to the "A" and that were not shown on the map, such as the Pelham Manor - Pelham Station H Line of Fontain Fox fame, because their tracks were removed.
May I ask you to "go back to the drawing board?"
And do the necessary research to tell us what the actoal changes were, instead of just labeling tne ERA map innacurate? Removal of that corner store complex and replacement by housing or parkland may be one.
I remember only one clock, but it is your neighborhood. Do both clocks still exist?
To help Joe Frank or anyone eklse to detail all the changes from 1945 to now for the area arounf . I've replaced the entire Yonkers track map, which, if my memory is ciorrect, was given out as a "freebe" on a fan-trtip. with an enlargement of just the area covered by the New Rochelle - Subway A Line.
The ERA sold (I'll check to see if still available) a trackmap of the entire system in 1945.
Dave: I don't feel like going through seven pages of a photo-heavy thread to determine the provenance of every photo you've posted. The responsibility to adhere to copyright falls on the person posting the photo. You know if you shot a photo or not. If you didn't, get permission from the original photographer or their inheritors, or don't post it. Even if it's already been posted here or elsewhere.
OK Agreed. My real purpose has been to revive the photos I took as a youngster and share them, and from now on only exceptionally with the specific request of the original photographer ("You can share this photo I took if you wish, David" --- typical, interpreted my me as a request to share--- will I post someone else's photograph.
And if Richard Allmasn and/or I do any editing, I'll ask the photographer for permission to use the edited version.
deleted
Richard Allman's improvement on my straightened 187 on Westchester Avenue photo:
Dave -- "improvement"?? Look at the distortion (looks like mud or/ and grass) at the upper right corner where clearly and sharply seen "before" improvements -- are the visible track catwalk ties, planking and railing. Looks like "grass" growing there now !!! BELOW is your (or that same) photo BEFORE your touted new editing -- look at top right corner - - also signs are sharper and more detailed and have more definition contrast
Dave - I have been over this ad- infinatum with you on my previous msg reply to you on this matter. -- re: the ERA TARS Map. YOU took (or claim to ??) that photo of Trolley 324 at Mount Vernon (that you first claimed, totally wrong, as I proved then, was in the Bronx, E.163rd St & Westchester Ave!!) --- so YOU do your own research to find out WHERE you stood at, and where, that intersection is (with the stores, etc) on the Mount Vernon "A" Trolley TARS Route. The Map actual "mileage and footage" format is severely "compressed" to conserve paper space for compact illustration purposes. As far as what exists NOW vs: then in the area of that route --- obviously ALL vestigates of the trolley route and tracks are long gone -- so the ERA map is the only clue to its reality. Also some of the street names have been changed since the era the map version depicts long ago. There is a commercial area along that route (if you do the google maps "drive along" tedious process for the whole route --- that could be where the corner stores once were and are gone now, replaced with new "modern" structures. I don't know. If you took that photo, then YOU were there I expect back then. You research its location ! Sorry, but I have more important matters to attend to, otherwise.
Dave -- I explained IN DETAIL to you - in private email and HERE also about this "other" clock. Again, this clock was removed, destroyed when the entire block was torn down (E.85th north to E.86th Sts.) around 1963-4, for construction of the huge Park Lane Towers (aka Jeffersons TV Show Building !) opened in 1967. The "Yorkville Clock" got so named in the late 1970's because it was the ONLY remaining Victorian era street clock on 3rd Ave in Yorkville section after 1963. Owned by Sterns Jewelers & Pawn Shop (whom I knew back then) and when they sold their property, new owners neglected the clock which finally ceased to operate mechanically. In 1980's I think -- a movement developed to save and restore the clock -- which took place. It was removed to Long Island, completely restored and re-installed on its base on the sidewalk a year or so later. Christened the Yorkville Clock.
OK -- below is a 1953 aerial photo I have in the area where I lived and the EL and where the BOTH Clocks existed. (E. 84 & E.85th Streets area) . On that aerial photo I marked the location of BOTH clocks along the EL on 3rd Ave, marked the E. 84th St EL Station, marked my own home (apartment house) and etc. This may be better able to inform you. Hope so ! regards - Joe F
Thanks. Great job. Keep it up.
Thank you also Dave -- glad to have solved the two clock mystery and their locations for you. Its been 70 + years now! Agreed, the west side of avenue clock at E. 85 St was far more ornate and had a bigger clock-face-head area. Too bad it was trashed with the block demolition in 1963. But hey, I wasn't much focusing intently on those clocks way back then -- just the stores & shops, the EL and my EL Station, and the EL trains. All of which I used and frequented ! The 2 clocks were like the lamp posts, traffic signal posts, street signs, -- just street furniture !
Thank you for constructive help.
I don't blame you in any way for the problems in receiving email from you. For example, a very close friend, one who truly saved my life at one point, has sent URLs on material in the New York Times and the New Yorker on NYC's Geffin Hall, which I had worked to assist Columbia U. Professor Cyril Harris with a sound system design to complemant and fit his room-acoustics and noise control designs, some 50 years ago. (Dr. Harris had a "Profile" in the New Yorker. titled "The Quiet Man.") So, of couse I was interested in how the new modifications turned out. But the server won't let me pull up those articles.
At 90+ my memory may not be perfect. I believe I quickly was told or realized the Main St. P:elhsam photo couldv not br in The Bronx and was the first to research, via the ERA track-map, the correct location. Joe. you must have seen the Westchester Avenue (Bronx) location attribution during the short time that the error existed. I never suggested south Mt. Vernon. I use the Forum to share my very young days' memories with others and try to refrain from criticizing others.
Dave -- be aware that 2 of those sites with the urls' you mentioned are PAY WALL SITES -- they want you to subscribe and buy their newspapers in order to see anything on line they offer.
The server does not let me get that far, "Page not available" All three.
Do you want me to delete all my "clock" postings?
Regarding the further improvenent in 187 on Westchester, leaving both on the thread lets each reader judge individuazlly.
NO -- I emailed-wrote to you last night that you could leave the Clock with the EL pictures you posted (from the one I emailed you) intact on the forum. Its an interesting nostalgia shot of what is now all gone. So leave them as they are.
Thanks. OK to correct for all three balls the same?
Yes Dave -- whatever looks best to complete that detail --that's all .....
Three New Rochelle rainy-day fan-trip photos, the second car an ex-Manhattan car. one photo at the railroad station. At the Post-Office location, there was an unused track straight ahead where 121 is shown turning left.
Joe, even if I were not 90 and somewhat Mobility-reduced, and even if I had the state-of-the-art computer equipment and server that you have, a half-a-day off would come nowhere to allow me to just ride the "2" subway train to East 241st Street and ride the bus to New Rochelle. You can do it and note the facts. And you can return either by bus and subway or by the New Haven Division Metro North.
Dave -- I have my own aggravating medical issues ongoing now and that is not even a remote possibility for me -- time wise, energy wise, health-wise and expsense-wise. For just a lark trip at that.
I understand. For me the main issue was settled by the ERA map and still is. Perhaps you have a younger and trustworthy raifan friend who can enjoy ther idea of taking the bus ride and settl.ing the questions concerning the changes?
And should I pray for your health?
Regarding ERA trackmaps. From a friend wo volunteers regularly bat the ERA office:
The ERA hasn’t had any maps for sale in decades. One of my goals for the ERA is to archivally scan every track/route map that we ever produced.
Dave - I think I may have found the spot / intersection where the 324 "A"Route TARS car was shot --- will have to get back to it later -- very ill this weekend -- possible food poisioning (salmonella or bochelism) -- I put MAIN ST (which is Boston rd Rt-1 now) and Pelham Ave in the Google Map Search -- and got the "town" drive-along current images. Actually found DRAKE STREET where ERA map shows a right hand track (dotted line) turn from the 2 track mainline tracks on MAIN ST (called back then, now called Boston Road-US1 ) of present time. I think that photo was taken on Main Street which is all business type real estate . UNFORTUNATELY --- its mainly ALL NEW real estate since the 1940's photo -- likely done afterr WWII
No trace of anything left from whats in the photo from that 1940's period..
The ERA map is badly drawing-flawed in its compression the way it shows Pelham intersecting with Main St...which is more of a 90 degree angle in reaglity and not the slight merging angle as ERA map shows.
Anyway, I will provide some current photos of where I think the shot was taken --- likely ON MAIN ST (US-1 now) just before or just after DRAKE STREET and that dotted-line curving branch track seen on ERA map. I DO NOT believe Pelham Or Pelhamdale Avenues, which is mainly all very old OLD residential homes thru-out, was the location of the trolley "A" route car scene..
Two Yonkers photos. 357- uis on the "4" McLean Avenue Line, north of the Yonkers - The Bronx Line, on Central Park Avenue, where the line trasnsitions from center-of-the-road to weidely-spaced. 371 is south of the northern terminal of the Park Avernue (-Broadwsay), Palasades Avenue, south of Roberts Avenue..
According to a photo sent me, the market and the store adjacent are now occupied by ac Bank. The buildings remain.
Previous post is in error. Closer examination indicates the Market location is now the "Yonkers Food Court>"
The bank is in the building to the right of the "food court."
From the Google symbolism, the "food court" includes sit-down dining.
Two for Winter in The Bronx. One at West Farms Car House, with one of New York's newest. and one----
Bruckner Blvd.? NO!! Bernside Avenue NO! a second time. Floedham Rload and oosted earlier. Apologies!
It looks like the car is stuck and blocking the trollys.
You are right. Also, I correcteed the caption. Bernside Avenue.
Second correction. Not Bruckner, not Bernside, Fordham Road correct.
Apologies
Third Avenue at 145th Street, where the Elevated curves from its PRW leading to its Harlem River Bridge, south of 133rd Street. Boston Road merges into Third Avenue between 150th and 151st Streets. 194 is an ex-Manhattan, ex-conduit car. Photos here all in 1947. Joe Frank helped with the exact location.
680 was one of the last home-built lightweights (late 1939), here on its normasl Treemont Avenue assignment. Shown at West Farms Square, used by the B, C, T, V, and Z.
For a borrow by the Southern Blvd. line, there must have been somewhat of a scramble for the correct portable dash sign, Picture is at the norther Bronx Park West terminal.
Another look at the northern end of vthe Warburton Avenue Line at thecv Yonkers-0Hastings border:
More on the 6th St. and Thec Bowery short-turn fascility
A March, 1947 ERA fan-trip covered the Sound View Avenue Line the day after the last regulr streetcar service. The regular service had been provided by the four covertables (straight-sided) that TARS had equipped field shunts as an experiment, not implemented otherwise. (Three required for rush-hour service.) Never had the chance to ride any of the four.
Carrection:
From a postcard,n sent bme by bHenry Raudenbush:
And the photo that suggested the discussion:
Miningman Any chance you could try to get the pictures up Dave. Two 125th Street photos that dissapeared have been found and reposted. The third page of this thread.
Two 125th Street photos that dissapeared have been found and reposted. The third page of this thread.
Further correrction. Believe I got it correct this time:
Improved the photo of 384 on Warburton Avenue at the Haqstings-Yonkers Town Line:
North of Gettys Square, tracks on North Broadway used by 2, 6, and 7, both directions, and 5 and 9 southbound only.
Back to West Farms Square in The Bronx, with the el.evated structure and 177th Street Station used by the 2 and 5 in the background.
152 on "C" is ex-Manhattan, one of earlier, 1936, home-built lightweights, 672, on the T, one of the newest, 1939.
627, pictured in an earlier post at the Bowery and 6th Street, Manhattan, March, 1947, got trolley poles in June, and is in The Bronx, Southern Boulevard and Berratto Street.
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