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Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, July 22, 2021 8:20 AM

100 percent.   But I don't consider either the Red Arrow or the IT cars as interurban cars, because both were built for suburban service.   This is a matter of opinion, not fact.

But you did mention the CA&E cars, which were the ones I indeed had in mind.  Look forward to your question.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, July 22, 2021 7:35 AM

All of the interurban streamliners (CNS&M,  IT, and PSTCo) were built by St. Louis Car.  The last "interurban" cars were the the 14 built in 1949 for Philadelphia Suburban Transportation (Red Arrow Lines) with double-ended PCC bodies, but non-PCC trucks and motors. IT's PCCs for Granite City service were delivered in 1947 and 1948. Not streamlined but very modern were CA&E's 1945 451-460 series.

IT and StLCC did not take into account that IT still had some very sharp curves, both vertical and horizontal, on its lines.  The streamlined trains had to be separated into single cars to loop in St. Louis.  Only one trip was made into Peoria over the street trackage, where both grade change and curve issues were found.  All revenue trips ended in East Peoria with a shuttle car handling the trip to IT's downtown station.  IT soon pulled out of Peoria altogether, using the East Peoria station until the end of IT passenger service.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, July 22, 2021 4:41 AM

1.  The post-WWII streamliners that St. Louis Car Company built for the Illinoois Terninbal Railroaf were not as suvvessful as the pre-WWII Electroliners (one at Illinis Eailroad Museum in Union, Illinois, I believe operational and restored as a Morth Shore Elecroliner, and one at a Pennsylvania musuem and still a Philadelphia and Western/Red Arrow Libertyliner).  What was the major defect?

2.  These were not the very USA interuban cars built.  What were?

Please do the extra, and give as much information and history as you can.  Thanks.

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, July 21, 2021 6:13 AM

Yes you do.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, July 20, 2021 9:27 PM

Don Ib get to ask the next question?

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, July 20, 2021 6:48 PM

Except for the Worcester Main Line (key to the proposed CSX acquisition of Pan Am) very little of the WN&P survives.  The bulk of its route in New Hampshire is now state route 125.  There were some short branches in service until the 1990s.  There are some local pronunciations of Worcester (Wurster, Woostah) as well as the more common Wooster.  The WooSox are the local Red Sox affiliate, formerly in Pawtucket RI as the PawSox.  The WN&P's status as the Ghost Division was an early admission from the railroad unions that mergers, acquisitions and abandonments have to be handled realistically.

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, July 20, 2021 5:28 PM

daveklepper
I think the name has always been pronounced "Wooster."

Almost always...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oJdN7pLBrio

0:40

(I was going to type it but... I didn't renember it in its full splendor.)

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, July 20, 2021 2:26 PM

Possdibly some more survives.  In any case, I think the name has always been pronounced "Wooster."

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, July 20, 2021 10:30 AM

Worcester, like part of the sauce, right?

With the section between Ayer and the namesake city being the 'Worcester Main' that is most of what survives?

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, July 20, 2021 6:08 AM

Since the Eastern Railroad became the Eastern Division, the Worcesta(Sp?), Nashua and Portland may be the name of the division you are requesting.  But, in any case, that is precisely the track you are looking for, even if the division name is different.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, July 19, 2021 1:32 PM

The Fitchburg Division crossed the line I'm looking for.  Fitchburg runs east-west, this one ran southwest-northeast.

The East wind, State of Maine and Bar Harbor all used the piece of this route that still remains, but used the Stony Brook and Western main line to head for Portland.  Remember, I'm looking for the entire name.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, July 19, 2021 11:18 AM

The Western route still exists as the main line used by Amtrak's Downeaster service, and MBTA commuter servicr as far as Haverhill.

The Eastern has been cut back to Newberryport, with MBTA sevice, including a branch to Cloucester.

The Fitchberg Division is what you are looking for, reaching Maine, via a connection from Ayer, still a major freigiht route, and once used by the State-of-Maine Express and the East Wind.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, July 19, 2021 10:00 AM

First time I got it with a one word answer...

Up until the 1920s the Boston and Maine had three routes from Massachusetts to Maine.  The Eastern and Western Routes remained until the 1940s (and remain as names in "T" territory)  Name the third route, whose name always included the middle city, and which became known as the "ghost division" as its seniority roster was merged with the rest of the B&M.  A short piece of it remains as an important part of the current Pan Am Railway.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, July 18, 2021 9:28 AM

Again, government, not the tax-paying private enterprise itself.  Bpth are evidences of Government interference in the transportation business, long before subsidies were necessary.

Isn't  there a warning sign there?

In any case, rc of course has the next question.

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, July 16, 2021 11:01 AM

rcdrye
 
daveklepper
And Capitol Transit?   Who?

Congress.

PL 84-757, DC Transit, Inc. Franchise Act.  Ought to be in the Federal Register in mid-1956.  Quoted in this, which may have quite a bit of incidental detail:

https://books.google.com/books?id=lY5KAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA222&lpg=PA222&dq=public+law+84-757&source=bl&ots=8k-BuptrdI&sig=ACfU3U2FtFf04jl6BfQAOcZHQQpfA1d92A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjjxMq2-ufxAhVgVTABHQgfBlYQ6AEwDHoECCwQAg#v=onepage&q=public%20law%2084-757&f=false

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, July 16, 2021 10:03 AM

daveklepper
Both, yes, government, not the private industry. And Capitol Transit?   Who?

Congress.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, July 16, 2021 6:28 AM

Both, yes, government, not the private industry.

And Capitol Transit?   Who?

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, July 16, 2021 5:57 AM

daveklepper
Again, who deceded TATS' Manhattan streetcars must be replaced by buses?

The most commonly heard story says it was Fiorello LaGuardia, though it's far more likely that Robert Moses was involved.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, July 16, 2021 3:45 AM

Again, who deceded TATS' Manhattan streetcars must be replaced by buses?

The decision was made  in 1941, but the conversion was delayed by WWII and began October, 1946, completed (for Manhattan conduit-only lines) June, 1947.  (In passing, from Jack May, Slaughter Huff wanted to save WWII profits to pay for the new buses, but was ousted by stockholders who wished immediate cas.  Under new management, TARS converted all lines  to bus, with the last Yonkers streetcars running in 1952, and TARS went bsankrupt because of continued need for time payments for the buses.)

Unsure about the dates for Capitol Transit, but note that thec Du Pont Circle Underpass was completed in 1948 or 1949, with its new conduit track.  Who deceded that Roy Chalk's excellently-maintained all-PCC streetcar system had to be  replaced by buses?

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, July 15, 2021 6:46 AM

Not the answer I expected.  What was the reason for all three?

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, July 14, 2021 9:21 PM

daveklepper
Can you suggest a  real parallel in freight railroading?

If it's what I think it is, one parallel might be the Atglen & Susquehanna.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, July 14, 2021 2:56 PM

Capitol Transit in Washington, DC, and Third Avenue Transit System in Manhattan, The Bronx, and Westchester Couonty, had in common the use of both overhead wire and conduit current collection.

In addition, the cnversion of Third Avenue Transit System's eight Manhattan  streetcar lines that ran through WWII, and the final closure of Roy Chalk's Capitol Transit streetcar lines for bus replacement, also had smething in common.  What was it?

Can you suggest a  real parallwl in frieght railroading?

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, July 14, 2021 11:05 AM

You go ahead.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, July 14, 2021 9:16 AM

I also remember my first Boston - Concord, and Concord - Boston trips, age 5, 1937, with parents.  Not the Allouette; insgtead, the typical of the period open-platform coaches, which were in use on the B&M until the Budd's came.  But I enjoyed the end windows of those cars when insisting on riding the lasr car.  But on the return, a box or refrigerator car was attached at the rear at Manchester or Nashua spoiling my fun.

We had used the Boston night-boat from and to New York with dinner on the boat.  Apparently, this was less expensive then Pullman on the Owl.  Ot maybe my parents just enjoyed a boat ride.  Most of my many NY - Concord trips were in a State-of-Maine sleeper.  But Boston = concord om the Allouette.  

Do you wish to ask the next question, since my answer was not 100%?

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, July 14, 2021 8:58 AM
Pool with B&M’s only E8 and its E7 fleet.  B&M’s only E8 came as the last locomotive delivered as part of an E7 order.  The B&M used E7s and its one E8 in the pool with CP and, as well, for its own Boston – Portland service, on occasion running thru on the Maine Central to Bangor, but no further.  All other B&M passenger service was with F-units, plus the one Flying Yankee, then also Alco and GP-7 road-switchers, until the Budd RDCs arrived.  But the B&M still had some Mogulss and Pacifics on rush-hour Bston commuter runs as late as 1951 or 1952.
The Allouette and Red Wing, when not powered by a CP E8, would more likely have a B&M E7, rather than the one E8, and the E8 on occasion was used to Portland, possibly to Bangor.
The first time I rode the Allouette, it was powered by a CP Pacific and has a CP heavyweight brass-rail observation-parlor at the rear end.  But then I only rode it as far as Concord, NH.  Age 13, 1945. Around 1 July.  (Campers' special non-air-conditioned coach)
Several trips afterward, up to and including the B&M-CP Budd 2-car arrangement at the end via both White  River and Wells River Junctions.
The one time I rode overnight Boston - Montreal on the B&M-CP Red Wing, the CV New Englander was still running.  But this was a separate train only between Concord and White River Jc.  North of White River, I believe it was combined with the Montrealer-Washingtonian, and its green cars stood out against the red B&M and CP Red Wing cars between Boston and Concord.
Of course I should have known CP at St. Johnsberry. Probably was asleep when passing through several times.
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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, July 14, 2021 6:12 AM

St. Johnsbury was served by Canadian Pacific and Maine Central.  The StJ&LC operated the station and switched the yard for the other railroads, a legacy of the line's beginning as part of the Portland and Ogdensburgh.  CP bought the line north of Wells River VT in 1926.  B&M and CP had various pool arrangements for freight and passenger power in both steam and diesel eras.  In the diesel era, CP used mostly Alcos built in Schenectady instead of MLWs, and also purchased three E8s (to pool with B&M's only E8) for the Allouette and Red Wing.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, July 14, 2021 3:22 AM

 

I thoough that Wiki's map showed a Bangor & Aroostic branch to St. Johnsbury, b ut was mistaken.   Apologies.

I had mentioned the B&M earlieapr and thought you were looking for two more.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, July 13, 2021 5:49 PM

B&M trains from Boston to Montreal called at St Johnsbury.  BAR never quite made it to Vermont...

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, July 13, 2021 2:21 AM

Bangor & Aroostick, anf Maine Central

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, July 12, 2021 3:56 PM

daveklepper
Overmod.  This is Vermont, not Massachusetts or Rhode Island or New Hampshire!

I saw Newport and went right to the wrong conclusion.

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