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Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, September 13, 2021 10:06 AM

Still waiting for rc's question.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, September 9, 2021 10:00 PM

You got the right answer, with the first catagory having two distinct electrification systems and the second only one.

Boston really belongs in the first catagory, because Amtrak provides no commuter service, and all the T's Purple service is desiel-powered.

New York has the New Haven and NJT electrifications, in addition to the DC used by everone else.

Cicago's METRA and CTA electrifications are not, at presentm compatible, even if equipment could be designed for that purpose.

Look forward to your question.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, September 9, 2021 11:28 AM

It looks like the categories were:

1. "heavy" , "rapid" and "light" electrification, with commuter service.  San Francisco and Boston both have projects underway.

2. "rapid" and "light" or with systems like Pittsburgh which (now) has characteristics of both.

CRT handled interchange freight on behalf of CMStP(&P) on the North Side Main Line and the Evanston and Skokie branches.  Evanston and Main Line customers lasted into the CTA era. There the clearance issue was mainly the high-level platforms, but the third rail made for restrictions.  Gauntlet track on the Main Line and both branches solved the platform problem, along with having no third rail on Main Line track 1 between Howard and Granville.

CRT and CTA shared track with CA&E's interchange freight from Laramie to Bellwood on the Garfield Park line.

CRT and CTA had historic connections on most of the major branches to receive rail, ties and other material.  The 63rd st lower yard connection is (or was) the last of those.  Because the former connection from the C&NW(UP) line between Mayfair and Evanston has been abandoned new cars are delivered to Skokie Shops by truck.

CRT even had lines that were tight enough to restrict the use of certain types of its own equipment.  5000- and 6000-series cars could not operate west of Laramie on the Lake Street line before November 1962, because they would not clear the island platform station houses on the street-level line. 

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, September 9, 2021 10:10 AM

rcdrye

Both CTA and Metra Electric are physically connected to the rest of the american rail network. CTA used to have several connections - the only remaining one is at the 63rd St yard. with NS for material delivery.  Metra Electric's connection allows NICTD to use Metra to Randolph St. "Millenium Station".  CTA's 600 volt third rail is obviously not directly compatible with Metra's 1500 vdc overhead, though in the long-forgotten past the South Shore had a couple of freight motors that could be set up to run on 600 volts.

Both Metra and CTA have clearance diagrams slightly smaller than standard, which require the use of gauntlets for freight equipment to clear high platforms.

CTA's clearance diagram is quite a bit smaller than standard.

IC's suburban line also connects with the parallel IC freight and passenger lines at several locations.  This allowed Chicago West Pullman & Southern to operate on the Blue Island branch to service the International Harvester plant near Halsted Street.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, September 8, 2021 3:58 PM

Cleveland is in the second catagory today/

At one time it would have been in the first catagory IF the Union Terminal electrification had included commuter service.

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, September 6, 2021 4:01 PM

.

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, September 6, 2021 3:32 PM

It might be interesting to tally up the systems that have no rail connection with the general system of transportation, BUT that run on previous railroads and have physical crossings or co-location with active trains.  Perhaps a firsthand example is in Memphis, where the downtown loop has repurposed a stretch of the old IC riverfront line's double track, in fact crossing what is the active Amtrak main on the north end at grade, but at no point to my knowledge crossing over or switchable to it. 

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, September 6, 2021 7:31 AM

Both CTA and Metra Electric are physically connected to the rest of the american rail network. CTA used to have several connections - the only remaining one is at the 63rd St yard. with NS for material delivery.  Metra Electric's connection allows NICTD to use Metra to Randolph St. "Millenium Station".  CTA's 600 volt third rail is obviously not directly compatible with Metra's 1500 vdc overhead, though in the long-forgotten past the South Shore had a couple of freight motors that could be set up to run on 600 volts.

Both Metra and CTA have clearance diagrams slightly smaller than standard, which require the use of gauntlets for freight equipment to clear high platforms.

If Cleveland (missing from both lists) were categorized it would be easier to figure out the boundaries.

It's amazing to look at how many cities have added both light and heavy rail systems in the last 50 years.  Quite a few cities have added both.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, September 6, 2021 2:51 AM

Has Rc  given it a try?

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, September 5, 2021 2:34 PM

daveklepper
You are telling me that it is not worth your bother to look at the other systems listed and put what you find to work to answer the question?

Oh, no!  I'm saying I looked and looked and remained stumped.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, September 5, 2021 8:46 AM

You are telling me that it is not worth your bother to look at the other systems listed and put what you find to work to answer the question?

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, September 5, 2021 8:01 AM

Bumping this.

The electrical characteristics of the MARTA systems may share a common voltage, but the pickup systems and the loading height are both, to my knowledge, radically different.  That leaves me out of the water before asking whether only CTA and METRA 'Electric' are the things being compared in Chicago.  Someone else will have to winkle out the 'key' details here.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, August 22, 2021 11:30 AM

Atlanra's MARTA Sp?) rapid transit and its streetcar are the same gauge and share another imortant technical characteristic. 

Chicago's CTA and its METRA also share the same gauge but differ in this other characteristic (enough) to put Chicago's public transit in a different ctagorythan Atlanta.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, August 18, 2021 4:15 AM

You will enjoy my lstest LVT posting (give it some timje).   Thanks for your confirmation, and you should be ablr to answer the latest question easily.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, August 17, 2021 10:31 AM

The Mon and Duquesne inclines have a track gauge of 5 ft.

All of the interurbans that connected with Pittburgh's streetcar system were also Penn Gauge, so end-to-end connections were not a problem.  

69th street in Philadelphia has incompatible Penn gauge systems, and gauge-incompatible third rail systems all sharing a station.

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, August 17, 2021 8:52 AM

OK.  Don't out-think youself.  Grab the obvious on this one:

 

All the cities below have electroc rail-public-transit, but can be divided into two catagoies, excluding any airport people-movers,  funiculars, and cable-cars:

Catagoy One:

New York City, Hoboken, Newark. Trenton, Phhildadelphia, Baltimore, Washington, Chicago, Denver

Catagoy Two:

New Orelans, Atlanta, Kenosha, Little Rock, Miami, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Detroit, San Diego, Portland, Seattle.  Sacramento, St. Llouis, Dallas, Houston, Salt Lake City.

Boston is a matter of interpretation, but sometime in the future will almost certainly be in the first catagory.

San Francisco and San Jose may be currently in the second catagory but will (hopefully) shortly be in the first catagory without question.

Difference between the two catagories?

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, August 17, 2021 7:30 AM

That was a bit too obvious.  I was looking for something esoteric... outthunk myself.

Ask another one.

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, August 17, 2021 7:29 AM

That was a bit too obvious.  I was looking for something esoteric...

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, August 16, 2021 10:43 PM

OK, if it is truly not obvious, with all the hints, herewith all the answers.:

A hint was that only one Class I Railroad had this characyrtistic after WWII, that it was the last in the USA  to use steam , and steam was used to haul passengers isolated from the rest of ots system,  The D&RGW used steam on the isolated Durango - Silverton operation until that line was sold to Bradshaw, and only then did D&RGW become all-diesel.  And it was the only Class I to have more than one gauge after WWII.

San Fransisco handles commuters with diesel buses, trolley-buses, streetcars, light-rail, heavy rapid=transit, commuter trains, cable-cars, and ferry boats.  That's more types of public transit than any other city.  It also has more than one track gauge, with cable-cars narriower, and BART wider.

Pittsburgh and Philadelpia are both in Pennsylvania.  The gauge of Pittsburgh's inclined railways, funiculars, is different from the light rail system.

Philadelphia has standard gauge for commuter rail, the Norristown line, the Broad Street Subway, and PATCo.  Wide gauge for Market Street rapid-trasnsit, streetcars using the center-city subway, and the two remaining Red Arrow lines, Media and Sharon Hill.

No othe USA City has currently more than one track gauge.

Comments?

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, August 16, 2021 2:42 PM

It is, regrettably, not obvious to me.  And that's including the hint about all the different kinds of transportation.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, August 16, 2021 7:54 AM

Do RC or Overmod bother to read this?   The answers should be obvious by now.

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, August 14, 2021 2:21 PM

Two metfropolitan areas with transir systems having this characteristic are in the same USa eState.  The third is far away and has more forms of public transportation than any other USA or North American city, probably more than any in the World.  And it will always have this characteristic.  A fourth city, not terribly far from one of the two in the same state, could be said to have this characteristic, but only if you include a museum operation.

And one Canadian city has this characteristic.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, August 6, 2021 4:17 AM

The passenger service that was hauled by steam was (and is) isolated.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, August 3, 2021 5:07 AM

I thpught the hint of only one Class I with this characteristic through WWII and after, and that the  characteristic prevents thru service, would at least give away the characteristic.

So, another hint.  The Class I wast the last USA Class I to use steam regularly; they certainly used lots of  diesels, the steam hauled passengers, and the Class I never replaced them.

If you know two-out-of-the-three USA  transit systems that have this charecteristic, I'll accept you as the winner.

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, July 28, 2021 7:39 AM

Giveawy hint:

A characteristic not limited to transit systems.  There were a number of USA Class-1s with this characterisitic, with one lasting through WWII and beyond.  As far as I know, none now.

One interurban line had this characterisric, even conecring its own lines aside from the need to use other companies facilities for city access.

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, July 24, 2021 3:54 PM

Three large USA transit systems, both operating buses, as well as electric rail vehicles, have a feature regarding their rail systems that is common to these three, that the other transit systems definitely do not have.  It is not a positive feature fr any rail operation, electric, steam, diesel, or whatever, and in one of the systems can be considerred an impedement to  improved service.

Outside the USA, there are many systems with this characteristic, possibly between 50 and 100.   And there were many more in the USA at one time.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Saturday, July 24, 2021 10:10 AM

1953 was probably the first time that CA&E actually had a surplus of equipment.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, July 24, 2021 7:32 AM

Correct. CA&E leased the "North Shore woods" during WWII.  Though similar to CA&E's wood cars, they didn't run well in trains with them, so they were kept together, usually in local or shuttle service.  In 1946, CA&E returned the cars to the North Shore, and then bought them at a near-scrap price.  Most if not all of them were taken out of service after September 1953 when direct service to the Loop ended.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, July 23, 2021 8:35 AM

Chicago North Shore and Milwaukee and Chicago Aurora and Elgine.

Not sure, can look it up Sunday evening, but not until then.

I think CA&E was the buyer, and CNS&M the seller, but uncertain.

 

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, July 22, 2021 5:28 PM

In the same postwar era, one interurban sold several wooden cars to another, making these the last wooden interurbans sold for continued service.  Name both railroads.

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