Florida - Midwest service?
daveklepper But Rc, "beyond end-points?" Does the question involve the Illinois Terminal?
But Rc, "beyond end-points?"
Does the question involve the Illinois Terminal?
No it does not involve the Illinois Terminal. See above for additional clues.
rcdrye One more try. B&O built cars for a Baltimore-Cincinnati day train, and ran it for a matter of months before diverting it to a Detroit-Cincinnati route (The Cincinnatian in both cases). The Baltimore-Cincinnati-St Louis route was downgraded to a single through train plus a "mail train" by late 1948. Ironically the Mail Train (the Metropolitan) survived until the end of B&O passenger operations. The equipment purchased for a daytime Baltimore-Washington-Chicago service entered overnight service as the overnight Columbian. The Columbian's coach-only schedule was close enough to the all-Pullman Capitol Limited's schedule that the two trains were often combined, although they were listed separately through the 1950s.
One more try. B&O built cars for a Baltimore-Cincinnati day train, and ran it for a matter of months before diverting it to a Detroit-Cincinnati route (The Cincinnatian in both cases). The Baltimore-Cincinnati-St Louis route was downgraded to a single through train plus a "mail train" by late 1948. Ironically the Mail Train (the Metropolitan) survived until the end of B&O passenger operations.
The equipment purchased for a daytime Baltimore-Washington-Chicago service entered overnight service as the overnight Columbian.
The Columbian's coach-only schedule was close enough to the all-Pullman Capitol Limited's schedule that the two trains were often combined, although they were listed separately through the 1950s.
Nice try, but no. As you mention, the Cincinnatian had its route switched, but the train I'm looking for basically had the same endpoints in all three versions: the heavyweight predesessor, the proposed train I'm looking for, and the resulting overnight train whose name used a variation of the other two names.
As for the Columbian, true, the Jersey City-Washington-Chicago train originally was intended to be a dayliner, but ended up being an overnighter. But the route of the heavyweight Columbian was only Jersey City-Washington.
Here are some more clues:
- The heavyweight version of the train was discontinued in 1942.
- The resulting overnight train that utilized a variation of the name of the proposed train was installed after a number of trains that operated beyond the proposed train endpoints were switched to another railroad.
rcdrye The C&EI bought a bunch of cars in the early 1950s, some intended for Chicago-Cypress, some for Chicago-Evansville. It's possible they were actually intended for a Chicago-St. Louis train using the prewar Zipper name to replace the Cardinal. Eventually the Chicago-Evansville service was reduced to through Dixie Route trains, and the Chicago-West Vienna (Cypress) Meadowlark was replaced by an RDC-1.
The C&EI bought a bunch of cars in the early 1950s, some intended for Chicago-Cypress, some for Chicago-Evansville. It's possible they were actually intended for a Chicago-St. Louis train using the prewar Zipper name to replace the Cardinal. Eventually the Chicago-Evansville service was reduced to through Dixie Route trains, and the Chicago-West Vienna (Cypress) Meadowlark was replaced by an RDC-1.
Right region, but wrong direction.
From what I understand, C&EI's St. Louis service was a problem child since it began in 1904. Of the four routes providing Chicago-St. Louis service, it had the lowest patronage and fewest number of trains operated. The postwar lightweight cars C&EI bought were directed to its Evansville and Southern Illinois services - from what I can tell C&EI had no firm plans to modernize its St. Louis service. In relation to my question, by the time plans were announced concerning the new train I'm looking for, C&EI's Cardinal was running its last miles, discontinued in April 1949.
daveklepper The three major players in the Chicago - T%wi8n Cities market were the CB&Q, CMStP&P aznd CNW. BUt at one time there was a fourth. Chicago Great Western?, CRI&P? CGW ended alkl passenger service long before other,and seems likely to be part of the full answer. Or the SOO?
The three major players in the Chicago - T%wi8n Cities market were the CB&Q, CMStP&P aznd CNW. BUt at one time there was a fourth. Chicago Great Western?, CRI&P? CGW ended alkl passenger service long before other,and seems likely to be part of the full answer.
Or the SOO?
You're in the right neighborhood, in that it's in the midwest, but you're on the wrong route.
Also, I need to make a small modification to my original question -
The train name I'm looking for evolved from a name used on a heavyweight train on the same route that was discontinued in the early 1940s. Another variation of the orignal name was used over a decade later on a new overnight train, not a daytime train as originally stated.
I don't think this answers the question. CGW's Legionaire/Minnesotan was dropped in 1955, the Soo's Laker connection went in 1965 with the rest of the Laker- after C&NW's 400 and North Western Limited (1963). CB&Q/BN service remained to the end and MILW is still there. The only other was IC/M&StL's sevice that fizzled out before WWII.
In the absense oif vanyone else
daveklepper By "all service," do you mean all passenger service? Or complete abandonment of the track?
By "all service," do you mean all passenger service? Or complete abandonment of the track?
All passenger service.
A new question will be coming up in 2023. Happy New Year!
Correct! The other Pullmans assigned to the train were modernized heavyweight 10 section 3 DBR cars Minneapolis and Cedar Rapids. Zephyr Tower and Minneapolis became CB&Q cars in the Pullman breakup, Rocket Tower and Cedar Rapids went to the CRI&P. Other cars (and locomotives) were assigned by CB&Q and CRI&P on a 50/50 basis except for a CB&Q Baggage/RPO which only operated between St. Louis and Burlington IA.
rcdrye Two of the heavyweight Pullmans assigned to this jointly operated train each had names which contained the participating railroads' signature streamlined train name.
Two of the heavyweight Pullmans assigned to this jointly operated train each had names which contained the participating railroads' signature streamlined train name.
It would be Zephyr Tower and Rocket Tower, 8 section-1 Drawing Room-3 Double Bedroom modernized heavyweight sleepers assigned to the Zephyr Rocket, a Minneapolis-St. Louis train jointly operated by RI and CBQ.
RC has the correct answer and gets the next question.
Ed Burns
Nickel Plates "City of" series of sleepers had some names overlap with PRR and NYCS series of "City of" prewar 17 or 18 rmt cars (section 9, reserved for the porter, replaced roomette 9 on 17 rmt cars). NKP's cars were designated as 150-151 (6DBR-lounge) and 200-212 (10 rmt 6 DBR), plus prewar Pullman 18 rmt pool cars 215 and 216 purchased by NKP in the Pullman breakup. The cars were also listed in the named car Pullman list. Aside from the overlapped names and the other PRR and NYCS cars there was also a large series of "City of" 10rmt 6DBR cars owned by C&O, many of which were sold to other railroads (IC, B&O, D&RGW) without ever being used by C&O.
Duplicates:
City of Cleveland (NKP 150, NYC 17 rmt)
City of Chicago (NKP 151, CCC&StL 17 rmt)
City of Buffalo (NKP 200, CCC&StL 17 rmt)
City of St. Louis (NKP 201, PRR 18 rmt)
City of Indianapolis (NKP 203, NYC 17 rmt)
City of Erie (NKP 205, PRR 18 rmt)
City of Toledo (NKP 206, NYC 17 rmt)
City of Peoria (NKP 207, NYC 18 rmt)
City of Fort Wayne (NKP 212, PRR 18 rmt)
The "City of" prefix was used to designate a specific floor plan, probably 10R-6DBR. In the heavyweight era, the Pullman Company used numbers on tourist cars and all other sleeping, parlor and dining cars were designated by name only.
In the streamliner era, SP sleeping cars were later designated by number.
Next question:
Some pre and post war Pullmans were pre-fixed "City of". A few had numbers for Pullman purposes and most had just their names?
Why?
The New Haven's lsrge heavyweight paarlor-car fleet. Someone else ask the next question.
Until thne late 1949 replacement of these to-be commuter cars, the top train of this railroad was made up of these cars plus diner (sometimes two), lounge-obervation, and head-end cars. At the time, an all First-Class train.
The one engine-change took five minutes.
The shorter of the two major long-distance services terminated in a station and on approach tracks owned by a second and much larger railroad without another engine or crew chqange to thiswv much larger railrad. This city was the mid-pont of the second long-distance service, at a different station owned the conne3cting rsailroad and reached in part by a third railroad that owned no rolling vstock.
The commuter service for which these cars were re-seated was at one end of the long-distance services that these cars had seen. The long distance service to one city terminal always involoved an engine change. On the longer of the two major long-dstance services, ending at a more distant city. at one time four engine changes, then reduced to three. The service operated Amtrak first had one engine change, none now.
And Amtrak service is actually much better than when these cars were in ,.ong-distance servixce.
The connecting railroad that had these cars on its tracks in through service opoerated identacle cars in a different paint scheme. On a relatively few o0ccasions, one could see both in the same train. They were replaced by postwar lightweights. the cars. The cars they replaced included non-air-conditioned de-motored MUs that had provided an incomplete commuter service into a different city.
The cars I am referring were transferred from the service for which they were built and especialy during WWIi saw occasional service on adjacent connecting railroads and had six-wheel trucks. Most were built with ice air-conditioning as built, but converted to mechanical long before 1949.
B&O had some of the very newest cars from in the late '40s not specifically built for commuter service -- the ex-Cincinnatian cars in the Pittsburgh service in the '50s.
I went with B&O since they were one of the earliest users of air-conditioned passenger equipment. I'm not familiar with the mechanical particulars of the cars in question.
You mat be right. If your info is ptrcisem, desribe? What typ;e of trucjs?
Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!
Get the Classic Trains twice-monthly newsletter