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Does New York City need a third grand train station?

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Thursday, June 23, 2022 11:26 AM

BaltACD
always included a stop at the All Nation Hobby Shop.

I still miss it.  I used to visit it a little later, 1965-70.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Wednesday, June 22, 2022 8:23 PM

The High Line starts about where the Amtrak connector diverges from the original West Side Line, near the SE corner of the Javits Center.  The High line curves to the west, along the south side the Javits, before curving southward.  The area that was the NYC 30th street yards is now used by LIRR for midday coach storage.

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, June 22, 2022 4:41 PM

roundstick3@gmail.com
How about using the High Line to get into New York. The West Side is growing after all...

You must not be from New York.

The West Side line all the way through the Yupper West Side is now an Amtrak line.  Very few people would walk or cab to climb down into the chasm the tracks run through... and then you'd need room for platforms, etc.

The High Line park is the section below the Javits Center, which I think sits squarely across the old ROW although I seem to remember some elevated trackage going around the site when it was being built.  I think all the trackage that used to traverse what is now Hudson Yards was removed, probably at the time the Empire Connection was finished.

Now, you might expensively and dangerously rebuild the trackage on the overhead structure for something like light railcars.  People using the park might enjoy the occasional light open trolley-like car.  But actual transit on the order of an elevated railroad?

No.

 

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Posted by roundstick3@gmail.com on Wednesday, June 22, 2022 5:12 AM

How about using the High Line to get into New York. The West Side is growing after all

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, June 17, 2022 3:07 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH
Chicago Grand Central closed in 1969 or 1970 and C&O/B&O moved to North Western Station.  An apartment complex has been built on the site.  Dearborn Station had a similar fate.  Central Station (IC/Big Four) closed in 1973 and apartments have also been built on that site.

Randolph Street Station is in service underneath Millenium Park.  The servicing yard for Metra Electric is at 18th Street next to Soldier Field.  South Shore has some storage tracks just south of the station.

Would make the rounds of all those stations when I was making my regular trips to Chicago in the 1959-1963 period - always included a stop at the All Nation Hobby Shop.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, June 15, 2022 10:08 AM

Chicago Grand Central closed in 1969 or 1970 and C&O/B&O moved to North Western Station.  An apartment complex has been built on the site.  Dearborn Station had a similar fate.  Central Station (IC/Big Four) closed in 1973 and apartments have also been built on that site.

Randolph Street Station is in service underneath Millenium Park.  The servicing yard for Metra Electric is at 18th Street next to Soldier Field.  South Shore has some storage tracks just south of the station.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by roundstick3@gmail.com on Tuesday, June 14, 2022 8:35 PM

Is their a track layout plans out there somewhere for Chicago Grand Central Randolph Station IC Stations ext and other Chicago passenger terminals?

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Posted by MidlandMike on Tuesday, June 14, 2022 8:12 PM

roundstick3@gmail.com

It would seem to me that since Penn Station track capasity is at its absolute limit  and Grand Central is hemmed in and land locked that a 3rd station is needed. London has about 5 grand terminal stations and Chicago has had 5 to 7 big stations at one time  that trying to stuff 10 Million Passengers a day into two stations and hundreds of commuter trains is insane. Covid is almost over and traffic will come nack

 

Penn Station is getting 2 more access tunnels under the Hudson so they can add capacity via thruput.  GCT is hemmed in on the sides, but has expanded vertically with the deep Eastside Access concourses.  The keyword with Chicago is that they "had" a half dozen stations, but consolidated into an apparently irreducible three.  Efficency wants fewer, not more stations.  Also, from what I read, some office workers are now remote, or will be at least partly remote, so commuting will not fully recover.

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Posted by roundstick3@gmail.com on Tuesday, June 14, 2022 11:25 AM

When you are dealing with New York Real Estate everything is huge! 

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, June 14, 2022 10:08 AM

Amtrak and Metra each have coach yards and maintenance facilities just south of CUS plus Metra has a coach yard at Western Avenue about 2 miles from the north throat of CUS. 

Metra's coach yard for North Western Station is also near Western Avenue and the engine terminal is at 40th St (Pulaski Rd), about two miles further out.

I would not describe them as huge.  Clearing Yard on BRC is huge.

 

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by roundstick3@gmail.com on Monday, June 13, 2022 4:49 PM

Gov. Cuomo proposed a 15 billion doller replacement for the Porr Authority Bus Terminal. The problem with both commuter train and bus is where to park trains  and buses in the off peak hours. Sunnyside yard is for trains and commuter buses are on their own. At least Chicago has a huge yard outside of Union Station

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Monday, June 13, 2022 4:30 PM

roundstick3@gmail.com
Metra is using Budd and Pullman cars from 1970 something from Rock Isalnd days

Metra runs some ex-CNW bilevels built from late 50s through early 60s.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Monday, June 13, 2022 4:29 PM

Metra runs some ex-CNW bilevels built from late 50s through early 60s.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Saturday, June 11, 2022 10:45 PM

If you want to see a successful example of what Dave was saying, look at Philadelphia where they brought together opposing Reading and PRR commuter runs into thru routes.  (And in NY the routes are already physically connected.)

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, June 11, 2022 2:57 PM

Swapping crews takes less time than changing ends, and through operstion means one train at the platforms instead of two.

Penn has less "capacity" in terms of track than GCT.  But Penn Central shifted all Boston btrains from GCT yo Penn and made nearly all through trains to Washington because this fact.

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Posted by roundstick3@gmail.com on Saturday, June 11, 2022 1:55 PM

The Transmanhatten Expressway is a 1 mile freeway in a cut and tunnel that connects the GW bridge and a the Geothe Washington Bridge Bus station that only sees 20,000 commuters a day on the North Tip of Manhattan  Aka I 95

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Posted by BEAUSABRE on Saturday, June 11, 2022 1:07 PM

54light15
Transmanhattan Expressway? Say what? Did someone dig up you-know-who? 

No I guess he isn't "Alive!" But I admit I did a "Huh?" so I looked it up. Never knew it existed. Who was it that said that reading these forums isn't an educational experience?

The Trans-Manhattan Expressway is an east–west limited-access highway in New York City, in the United States. It traverses the northern end of the borough of Manhattan at one of its narrowest points, running for 0.81 miles (1.30 km) in a cut through Washington Heights.[3] The highway connects the George Washington Bridge over the Hudson River to the Alexander Hamilton Bridge over the Harlem River. Designated Interstate 95 (I-95) and U.S. Route 1, approximately 280,000 vehicles traverse the highway on a daily average basis.[4]

Completed in 1960, the expressway is located below ground level, in an open cut; however, the George Washington Bridge Bus Station and the high-rise Bridge Apartments are built over the expressway, creating intermittent tunnels. It is maintained by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.[5]

Although the highway geographically runs east–west, it carries the north–south routings of I-95 and US 1. The westbound lanes carry the southbound designations of both routes, while the eastbound lanes carry the northbound designations.

 

 

 

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Posted by 54light15 on Friday, June 10, 2022 3:04 PM

Transmanhattan Expressway? Say what? Did someone dig up you-know-who? 

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Posted by roundstick3@gmail.com on Friday, June 10, 2022 2:51 PM

Penn Station is hemmed in The Problem with Commuter Trains is capital investment in equipment that is only used twice a day. Storing that and paying railroad crews 12 hour wages and benefits is a money drainer.The PRR and NYC was using cars over 50 years old. Matter of fact Metra is using Budd and Pullman cars from 1970 something from Rock Isalnd days

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Posted by SD60MAC9500 on Friday, June 10, 2022 12:01 PM
 

Isn't there already a plan to expand capacity at Penn Station? Last I heard longer platfroms, and reconfiguring some of the platforms to add a few more inbound/outbound tracks.

 
 
 
Rahhhhhhhhh!!!!
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Posted by charlie hebdo on Friday, June 10, 2022 11:09 AM

BEAUSABRE
That London has so many stations is a legacy of the 19th century when land was relatively cheap and easy to obtain.

The reason for so many stations in London was a function of numerous private railways pre-consolidation, same as Paris. Same as pre-war Berlin.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Friday, June 10, 2022 10:02 AM

daveklepper

Efficiency:   HNew Haven Line Metro-North throgh routed with Jersey Transit and  LIRR throgh routed with NJ Transit.  LIRR also thropugh -routed with Metro-North Hudson Line.

 
The trains may run through but unless you're willing to go through difficult and time-consuming negotiations with the Operating Brotherhoods, you will have crew changes at Penn Station and GCT.
The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, June 10, 2022 8:23 AM

BEAUSABRE
No way! We don't want the trash from Long Island to have easier access to New Jersey than they already do!

Oh, that's mean!

Anyway, man am I glad I got the hell out of New Jersey in 1987!  The only thing I miss about NJ is the food!

And when my sister-in-law and her husband retire and move out the only people I'll know up there are all in the cemeteries.  One less reason to go north.

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Posted by roundstick3@gmail.com on Friday, June 10, 2022 7:47 AM

I liked the old idea of 1900 with a huge bridge across the Hudson and a giant elavated Pryamid Station on the East side

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Posted by BEAUSABRE on Friday, June 10, 2022 7:37 AM

daveklepper
New Haven Line Metro-North throgh routed with Jersey Transit and  LIRR throgh routed with NJ Transit. 

No way! We don't want the trash from Long Island to have easier access to New Jersey than they already do!

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, June 10, 2022 7:14 AM

You could always add more tracks to the Transmanhattan Expressway project, which would come across the Palisades at high level and cross Manhattan 'in the air' at the Manhattan Valley, around 125th St, connecting to the Triborough and the Hell Gate route across the East River.

The issue is not the crossing and station per se; it's the arrangements of holding yards either side of the active station facilities, and the arrangements to get passengers 'across the platforms' on and off the trains to reduce dwell.  The latter becomes interesting in any arrangement where multiple close-spaced tracks are located, whether or not at ground level, as you can't have passengers crossing the active tracks.

Investment in better 'vertical transit systems' (mostly escalators/motorstairs) is worth many billions of 'new terminal' ARC-style enlargements.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, June 10, 2022 2:52 AM

Makes far more sence to add capacity and improve efficiency at the two extsting stations.

Efficiency:   HNew Haven Line Metro-North throgh routed with Jersey Transit and  LIRR throgh routed with NJ Transit.  LIRR also thropugh -routed with Metro-North Hudson Line.

Add capacity.   Third level is being added for LIRR at GCT.   Ar Penn, the stub-tracks now used exclsively by NJT, should also go to Long Island. possibly needing a third pair of tunnels. 

And a second level, nderneath, as was done at GCT, may be possible. 

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Thursday, June 9, 2022 10:07 PM

Project will probably start about year 2090 and be built under Central Park with entrances on 59th street, 5th avenue and 8th avenue.  Rail tunnels under Hudson to NJ to join CSX west of Hudson line and under East river to come out just north of  SSY yard.  Station will need to be deep.  Can connect to the West side track to Albany.   Tracks connect to LIRR, Hell Gate line and MNRR north of NYG.

EDIT:  Costs  $138B  in   2022 constant dollars.

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, June 9, 2022 7:36 PM

Maybe interopratability should be established between Amtrak and the New York subway system!

 

runs and hides!

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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