York1It depends on which definition of infrastructure one uses.
Which I think should be predefined on a more specific project by project basis before the money is allocated. Projects should also be prioritized as well per critical nature. That would eliminate prioritized spending for a new highway while an existing highway bridge is about to collapse being given lower priority.
It depends on which definition of infrastructure one uses.
York1 John
Many folks on here oppose the spending (investment) of tax dollars on infrastructure. I wonder what Overmod has to say about this in his area?
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=315855566573418&id=100044469308146
CMStPnP BaltACD When one exists on a 'starvation' budget bad choices get implemented just to get the organizaion to tomorrow. It is easy to preach from the ivory tower it is harder to make things work when a organization has one hand and 4 fingers of the other hand tied behind its back. Perhaps this is a THAT WAS THEN, THIS IS NOW scenario. However, WisDOT is paying for pretty much everything now including new equipment on this specific corridor. So there is no excuse for this happening now. If it is happening now.
BaltACD When one exists on a 'starvation' budget bad choices get implemented just to get the organizaion to tomorrow. It is easy to preach from the ivory tower it is harder to make things work when a organization has one hand and 4 fingers of the other hand tied behind its back.
Perhaps this is a THAT WAS THEN, THIS IS NOW scenario. However, WisDOT is paying for pretty much everything now including new equipment on this specific corridor. So there is no excuse for this happening now. If it is happening now.
A organization cannot go from 9.5 digits in the grave to surmounting Mt. Everest one day to the next.
When Staggers was enacted in 1980 - it took the carriers the better part of a decade to understand Staggers and also understand how to utilize what Staggers allowed.
Organizations that operate under one set of rules and realities cannot convert to the full and effective use of a new more open, more financed reality overnight. All the institutional learning has to be unlearned and relearned in the new enviornment.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDWhen one exists on a 'starvation' budget bad choices get implemented just to get the organizaion to tomorrow. It is easy to preach from the ivory tower it is harder to make things work when a organization has one hand and 4 fingers of the other hand tied behind its back.
charlie hebdoI do not know whether it has been discussed on not and I doubt if you or anyone else here is party to those discussions. This whole plan is really just an outline of where Amtrak wants to go with adding new services, obviously corridors not LD lines, at least according to the Amtrak map. It's easy to miss the point by getting embedded in details.
What I personally do not like to see in the Amtrak new corridor proposal space and which will turn me Anti-Amtrak in a second is Amtrak competing head to head with a private company like Brightline. If it's cooperation and pooling of resources then OK but if we end up seeing too distinct rail passenger lines put down between Las Vegas and Los Angeles and one built almost exclusively with taxpayer money using Amtrak..........that would be enough for me to turn against Amtrak. Especially if we see that behavior replicated in other corridors. We all know Amtrak would lose in each corridor that was attempted as Brightline management is far smarter and more nible than Amtrak management. Why waste the taxpayers money to find out which we already know?
https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/infrastructure-funding-joe-biden-las-vegas-la-california-high-speed-rail-amtrak/2576439/
I expect them to do much what they've done on the NEC just east of the New York-Connecticut border: erect all-new support architecture, cabling, etc. at different spacing between the existing towers, then track by track take down the existing wire, temporarily supporting the transverse hangers as appropriate if necessary) and string good constant-tension catenary. The tower wirk can be conducted by multiple crews in multiple areas to speed the work, and parts of it (for example, setting bases for the new towers) could be done on an accelerated basis long before actual towers or structure are started.
One quick media spot that I noticed said that Antrak was going to do a lot of power work. Search of internet could not find any other specific mention of that report. So I went to the infrastructure asset line plan. It was not very clear but Amtrak seemed to think that the whole CAT structure NYP - WASH is in bad condition.
The high voltage power poles. Difficulty of getting the power company that has 3 phase power lines on top to co-ordinate. the poles themself; the unfortunate practice by PRR installing all tracks on a common wire hanger from outside to outside. That practice many times allow a pan that snags one wire may pull other CAT wires down shutting down a whole electric section .
The need to install more support poles for constant tension CAT. That is the standard is now 3 poles minimum for every 2 present PRR poles. That would be normally no problem just install a new pole between every present pole. Except many of the present poles that hold the 169 Kv or power company 3 phase wires need replacing.
So the price tag for getting CAT in a state of good repair is over $2.0 Bilion. Track time seems to be the constraining metric on an active RR. Obtaining enough power with all the transformers, CBs lighting protectios etc seemed to be in a fairly good SOGR.
Amtrak Infrastructure Asset Line Plan FY20-24
Second verse... same as the first...
BaltACD CMStPnP Gramp Why would one think anything's going to change? It's the same mumbo jumbo. A bunch of people who've spent their lives wheeling and dealing to where they're incapable of getting things done. I am one of those that thinks Amtrak needs a constant chaperone to save it from itself. So I agree in part your going to need an Amtrak partner like a state DOT or a Citizens group to get these corridors done. I still remember when the WisDOT sponsorship of the Chicago to Milwaukee trains was in it's infancy. Even though WisDOT was paying a large portion of the costs.......Amtrak tried to cut corners on it's end by constantly subbing in cars that were scheduled to go to the shop on the theory that Chicago to Milwaukee was such a short run.....if they broke down......not a big inconvienence for Amtrak. The Mayor of Milwaukee caught onto that and hired via the City Budget a "train monitor" to ride each train and report back to the Mayor on items not working on each train (hilarious but also true). Finally, city, state and Amtrak agreed on a fixed consist of equipment in good repair to resolve the issue and the "train monitor" became history. It is just so sad the city had to hire a train monitor in the first place BUT....that is Amtrak and it's management. When one exists on a 'starvation' budget bad choices get implemented just to get the organizaion to tomorrow. It is easy to preach from the ivory tower it is harder to make things work when a organization has one hand and 4 fingers of the other hand tied behind its back.
CMStPnP Gramp Why would one think anything's going to change? It's the same mumbo jumbo. A bunch of people who've spent their lives wheeling and dealing to where they're incapable of getting things done. I am one of those that thinks Amtrak needs a constant chaperone to save it from itself. So I agree in part your going to need an Amtrak partner like a state DOT or a Citizens group to get these corridors done. I still remember when the WisDOT sponsorship of the Chicago to Milwaukee trains was in it's infancy. Even though WisDOT was paying a large portion of the costs.......Amtrak tried to cut corners on it's end by constantly subbing in cars that were scheduled to go to the shop on the theory that Chicago to Milwaukee was such a short run.....if they broke down......not a big inconvienence for Amtrak. The Mayor of Milwaukee caught onto that and hired via the City Budget a "train monitor" to ride each train and report back to the Mayor on items not working on each train (hilarious but also true). Finally, city, state and Amtrak agreed on a fixed consist of equipment in good repair to resolve the issue and the "train monitor" became history. It is just so sad the city had to hire a train monitor in the first place BUT....that is Amtrak and it's management.
Gramp Why would one think anything's going to change? It's the same mumbo jumbo. A bunch of people who've spent their lives wheeling and dealing to where they're incapable of getting things done.
Why would one think anything's going to change? It's the same mumbo jumbo. A bunch of people who've spent their lives wheeling and dealing to where they're incapable of getting things done.
I am one of those that thinks Amtrak needs a constant chaperone to save it from itself. So I agree in part your going to need an Amtrak partner like a state DOT or a Citizens group to get these corridors done. I still remember when the WisDOT sponsorship of the Chicago to Milwaukee trains was in it's infancy. Even though WisDOT was paying a large portion of the costs.......Amtrak tried to cut corners on it's end by constantly subbing in cars that were scheduled to go to the shop on the theory that Chicago to Milwaukee was such a short run.....if they broke down......not a big inconvienence for Amtrak. The Mayor of Milwaukee caught onto that and hired via the City Budget a "train monitor" to ride each train and report back to the Mayor on items not working on each train (hilarious but also true). Finally, city, state and Amtrak agreed on a fixed consist of equipment in good repair to resolve the issue and the "train monitor" became history.
It is just so sad the city had to hire a train monitor in the first place BUT....that is Amtrak and it's management.
When one exists on a 'starvation' budget bad choices get implemented just to get the organizaion to tomorrow. It is easy to preach from the ivory tower it is harder to make things work when a organization has one hand and 4 fingers of the other hand tied behind its back.
So true Balt. I wonder how many industries do well with an uncertain capital flow, mandates for senseless services and dependent on other companies' infrastructure? Survival with fairly minimal subsidies for 50 years may now take a better direction.
bill613a CMStPnP All service on this line ended 4/30/71. blue streak 1 5. Several Atlanta services and Finally Atlanta - CLT - Raleigh - "S" line to Richmond - WASH. However the ATL station situation needs immediate solution. From what I remember Atlanta to Macon was retained by the Southern Railway post formation of Amtrak and Southern Railway ran that route for a few years into the Amtrak era along with the Southern Crescent but then yanked the Macon route while retaining the Crescent.
CMStPnP All service on this line ended 4/30/71. blue streak 1 5. Several Atlanta services and Finally Atlanta - CLT - Raleigh - "S" line to Richmond - WASH. However the ATL station situation needs immediate solution. From what I remember Atlanta to Macon was retained by the Southern Railway post formation of Amtrak and Southern Railway ran that route for a few years into the Amtrak era along with the Southern Crescent but then yanked the Macon route while retaining the Crescent.
All service on this line ended 4/30/71.
blue streak 1 5. Several Atlanta services and Finally Atlanta - CLT - Raleigh - "S" line to Richmond - WASH. However the ATL station situation needs immediate solution.
From what I remember Atlanta to Macon was retained by the Southern Railway post formation of Amtrak and Southern Railway ran that route for a few years into the Amtrak era along with the Southern Crescent but then yanked the Macon route while retaining the Crescent.
A little more complicated than that.
First SOU had 2 routes SOU ATL - Macon thru McDonough. Subsidiary C of GA thru East Point - Hapeville.
Before Amtrak day C of GA technically ran the Nancy Hanks ATL - Macon - Savannah over all Cof Ga tracks.. However by a fluke of corporate set up the line was actually Central of Georgia tracks ( C of GA ) not SOU. C of Ga joined Amtrak but SOU did not. So on the last day Cof Ga ran the last Nancy Hanks pulled by a steam loco (750 I think) somewhere past the ATL airport. A SOU diesel the rest of the way. Schedule to arrive SAV before midnight. Next day no Nancy Hanks on Amtrak or Cof Ga.
But SOU ran its Crescent as usual
OvermodSomething that perhaps pointedly has Not Been Discussed is whether or not the 'new and improved' Congress and Administration are going to emend or walk back the 'profitability mandate' that is supposed to be applying right about now and has likely only been temporarily delayed with COVID-19 concerns. That we have not seen this specific thing addressed early in Biden's priorities is an interesting, and perhaps a little ominous, thing. (Of course, perhaps it did happen and I missed it...)
I do not know whether it has been discussed on not and I doubt if you or anyone else here is party to those discussions. This whole plan is really just an outline of where Amtrak wants to go with adding new services, obviously corridors not LD lines, at least according to the Amtrak map. It's easy to miss the point by getting embedded in details.
charlie hebdoMost comments are all the things wrong with Amtrak's map, of the nitpicker variety, along with the "who will pay" types (who seldom say a word about defense spending.
What I found in it to be critical about was an implicit assumption: that people who in some sense will be guiding and advising Biden's policies have pre-analyzed and implicitly chosen or rejected what lines will either provide 'useful' social return or pay some acceptable portion of their cost. Some of the potentially "critical" comments speak to this: bridging from Louisville to Nashville to connect up that potential 'trunk' in a national network being one that has a certain attractiveness to it that would be spoiled by careful bud pruning right at the start.
Something I have not 'seen' in the map is an assessment of where higher speed/shorter time is truly relevant vs. convenience of extended or one-ride service. I continue to wonder if we can extend the multiple classes of 'provision of transportation' so the bare-bones social needs can be served by less extravagantly expensive crappy service, without devolving into an Amtrak of glorified (or not!) buses and equivalent on the one hand, and cruise-train expensive options whizzing past like things out of a Fitzgerald story.
Something that perhaps pointedly has Not Been Discussed is whether or not the 'new and improved' Congress and Administration are going to emend or walk back the 'profitability mandate' that is supposed to be applying right about now and has likely only been temporarily delayed with COVID-19 concerns. That we have not seen this specific thing addressed early in Biden's priorities is an interesting, and perhaps a little ominous, thing. (Of course, perhaps it did happen and I missed it...)
Overmod charlie hebdo For a forum that is supposed to be about modern passenger rail service, an objective observer would think the participants are largely anti-passenger service. Just for grins, approximately what percentage of the 'new routes' on the proposed Amtrak map represent precisely the kind of LD service that you're so tirelessly 'anti' about here... I may be using the rose-colored welder's goggles, but most of the discussion in this thread seems to be matters of practical implementation and disappointed experience, rather than deriding enhanced passenger service. To say that even 12 years of Biden and then Harris won't see the balls fully rolling is not anti-passenger, it's just noting that the road is hard and twisting, neither the moths nor the rust ever sleeps, and even a little political backlash or opportunistic expedience will find large capital projects that save but a few minutes here and there to be the easiest things to 'reallocate'.
charlie hebdo For a forum that is supposed to be about modern passenger rail service, an objective observer would think the participants are largely anti-passenger service.
Just for grins, approximately what percentage of the 'new routes' on the proposed Amtrak map represent precisely the kind of LD service that you're so tirelessly 'anti' about here...
I may be using the rose-colored welder's goggles, but most of the discussion in this thread seems to be matters of practical implementation and disappointed experience, rather than deriding enhanced passenger service. To say that even 12 years of Biden and then Harris won't see the balls fully rolling is not anti-passenger, it's just noting that the road is hard and twisting, neither the moths nor the rust ever sleeps, and even a little political backlash or opportunistic expedience will find large capital projects that save but a few minutes here and there to be the easiest things to 'reallocate'.
Most of the new routes appear to be of the corridor and linkage types of within some existing LD routes. In fact, that is the sort of passenger rail service Is am very "pro" on. I don't know what you are referring to and apparently, neither do you. I suggest you reread the thread. Most comments are all the things wrong with Amtrak's map, of the nitpicker variety, along with the "who will pay" types (who seldom say a word about defense spending.
charlie hebdoFor a forum that is supposed to be about modern passenger rail service, an objective observer would think the participants are largely anti-passenger service.
For a forum that is supposed to be about modern passenger rail service, an objective observer would think the participants are largely anti-passenger service.
A blueprint on paper wish list. Any final version of this will become so watered down it won't even matter and, again, the big question comes about on how is it all paid for?
Could there be some conflating between an EA (Environmental Assesment) and an EIS ? As an agency, FRA does their own EAs and EISes. If an EA results in a Finding Of No Significant Impact (FONSI) then a formal EIS is not needed. Looking thru the general rules, its hard to see why they would need a full blown EIS for adding a passenger train. Although I did not see Amtrak mentioned specifically, they do mention passenger trains. That's not to say it does not happen, they also make allowances for controversal projects.
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&SID=53d557efda087e7a5514dc356e125122&rgn=div5&view=text&node=23:1.0.1.8.43&idno=23#_top
Any construction project, public or private, is subject to the Environmental Protection Act, and must do the appropriate studies (EA, EIS etc.) unless there is an exception under the act. States usually also have their own laws consistant after the EPA's.
MidlandMikeBrightline was done with an EA and FONSI, no need for an EIS. Why would Amtrak need an EIS?
I have always believed that the United States required an EIS only on federal projects or on projects involving federal money. However, many states have their own requirements.
Is that correct? Is there an expert in the forum who knows for sure?
Every Amtrak addition in the State of Wisconsin has required both an Engineering Study followed by an EIS. So perhaps it has to do with the government funding aspect? State funding aspect? Not sure. So far all the projects have crossed state lines as well.
Perhaps Brightline because a subsidiary owns the track and it is done via private monies and is within state lines avoided the Federal Requirements......that could be another reason. I would be curious if the LA-Las Vegas line avoids the EIS.
CMStPnPSo a lot of that Amtrak dream map was slapped together. Further remember that each new route or route with added trains will require an Environmental Impact Study at a minimum and probably an engineering study. EIS is going to take 18-24 months by itself and is usually done after the engineering study. So we are not going to see any of these routes until after Bidens first term in office is over..........so I am not overly optimistic on this latest orgy of spending towards Amtrak.
Brightline was done with an EA and FONSI, no need for an EIS. Why would Amtrak need an EIS?
Has Virginia actually taken title to the "S" line in the state? No matter who now has title I have to wonder how much persons have built on the ROW ?
MidlandMikeNoticed the ex-NP route that Montana was pushing for didn't make the cut.
The map is what Amtrak wants not what the states want. I find it highly unlikely anyone will support Amtrak Dallas to Houston if Texas gets a high speed train on the same route. Likewise with LA to Las Vegas. The only state desired option I see on the map was extension of the Heartland Flyer......however ultimate goal there was extension to Kansas City not just to the Southwest Chief route.
So a lot of that Amtrak dream map was slapped together. Further remember that each new route or route with added trains will require an Environmental Impact Study at a minimum and probably an engineering study. EIS is going to take 18-24 months by itself and is usually done after the engineering study. So we are not going to see any of these routes until after Bidens first term in office is over..........so I am not overly optimistic on this latest orgy of spending towards Amtrak.
To be 100% honest, our country and government would make far more and faster progress towards better passenger service just via assisting private proposals such as Brightline instead of watching them twist on the vine in the wind.
charlie hebdo D.Carleton azrail They seem to forget that the UP line West of Phoenix is out of service W of Buckeye. And UP has no interest in reopening it. And the line from Petersburg, Virginia, to the North Carolina border was ripped up decades ago. This is the wish list of all wish lists. Just smile, nod and take it from where it comes. Is the ROW intact?
D.Carleton
They seem to forget that the UP line West of Phoenix is out of service W of Buckeye. And UP has no interest in reopening it.
And the line from Petersburg, Virginia, to the North Carolina border was ripped up decades ago. This is the wish list of all wish lists. Just smile, nod and take it from where it comes.
Is the ROW intact?
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
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