Ran into some interesting information this morning over at Railway Age. A company called Ameristar Rail is proposing to fund expansion of the NEC. Whilst providing some competition in the Northeast with through service and changes to train schedules. This includes stops providing better connections and possibly code sharing ticket rides it appears.
The next piece information comes form something called RAILnet-21 which proposes to split Amtrak into two federally controlled entities. Sounds like a legit plan. Me personally I believe Amtrak from it's beginings should have been an investment tool for the Class 1's. A program akin to the Short Line 45G tax credit. Let the private operators handle the network providing them incentives to develop greater capacity RoW to handle multi-speed traffic.
The Railway Age article talks about making more run-thru trains at NY Penn. Don't most of the trains from DC go thru to Boston? The Empire service terminates at NYP, so continuing on to Ronkonkoma would make it run-thru, but it's the only one I can think of.
In addition there would be hourly Ronkonkoma-Alexandria run throughs and Keystones would run through to Springfield MA. I don't know where they envision servicing the trains in Ronkonkoma, land acquisition would likely be pricey. With the (pre-covid) popularity of the LIRR "Cannonball" Friday trains, it seemed to me this would be a good addition to Amtrak NEC service. I seem to recall reading that Pennsy once ran through sleepers on the LIRR.
I wouldn't put much stock in anything written by the author of the article.
A number of the proposed routes would put a lot of diesel on the NEC. The Harrisburg-Springfield replacement of the Keystone service would end electric service to Harrisburg. Also, are diesels allowed in the downtown Phily terminal tunnel?
Don't know about Philly but I don't think that diesels are allowed in the East River and Hudson River tunnels.
MidlandMike...are diesels allowed in the downtown Philly terminal tunnel?
As noted, getting through the New York tunnels is the more critical issue here. Very theoretically the 'least-cost' solution would be to acquire some of the third-rail dual-modes for the enhanced Harrisburg-to-Springfield trains and slightly extend the existing third rail in the North River tunnels out past the portal again to give quick enough transition to and from diesel without stopping. The 'next best' alternative would be to run electric from Harrisburg up to end of the wire on the Springfield line north of New Haven and then use dedicated pool diesels for the relatively short (~60 miles) north to where the ex-B&A goes across.
Reading between the lines, the patronage on the Springfield trains had been growing faster than expected, leading to somewhat unwanted discussions about more trains. The proposed run-through makes greater sense in that it provides those trains as well as increasing the possibility of direct one-seat rides from Harrisburg and the communities east to Philadelphia as well as all those other sources along the NEC north of New Haven. The catch is that there is neither money nor time for electrifying the newly-double-tracked line yet... although option 3 would be just that: to strategically electrify those 60 miles with constant-tension cat in preparation for enhanced 'commuter' traffic to Boston if any of those strange proposals to get the 'second service' going ever get built.
Electrification should be part of a plan for the future. Look to getting a design from Siemens, rather than some homegrown variety.
charlie hebdoLook to getting a design from Siemens, rather than some homegrown variety.
There is no need to reinvent the wheel or build Starships or full six-million-dollar-plus dual modes that only governments can afford. Electrify the engines you have, to do the job the way you're familiar with, and use only the additional capacity those engines can source. Or if you want the advantages of hybrid consists using battery-electrics, put the catenary (or third-rail) means on the nominally electric unit and make connections to feed the others as needed.
The possibilities for NEC-capable trains that can run on unwired continuation (or in wire outages) are more than just a turn to Hartford or Springfield...
CSSHEGEWISCH Don't know about Philly but I don't think that diesels are allowed in the East River and Hudson River tunnels.
I assumed they would use th 3rd rail equiped diesels in NYP.
Overmod charlie hebdo Look to getting a design from Siemens, rather than some homegrown variety. Give Siemens the specs from the Conrail dual-mode lite program in the early '80s and say 'make variants of this modular to plug into the DC link of existing AC-drive designs. There is no need to reinvent the wheel or build Starships or full six-million-dollar-plus dual modes that only governments can afford. Electrify the engines you have, to do the job the way you're familiar with, and use only the additional capacity those engines can source. Or if you want the advantages of hybrid consists using battery-electrics, put the catenary (or third-rail) means on the nominally electric unit and make connections to feed the others as needed. The possibilities for NEC-capable trains that can run on unwired continuation (or in wire outages) are more than just a turn to Hartford or Springfield...
charlie hebdo Look to getting a design from Siemens, rather than some homegrown variety.
Give Siemens the specs from the Conrail dual-mode lite program in the early '80s and say 'make variants of this modular to plug into the DC link of existing AC-drive designs.
Plenty of genesis locos are and will be retired. Add a second cab and swapping the primemover/gen combo for transformer/rectifier/inverter combo should be an easy conversion.
SD60MAC9500Plenty of genesis locos are and will be retired. Add a second cab and swapping the primemover/gen combo for transformer/rectifier/inverter combo should be an easy conversion.
I suspect current equipment on the Springfield line is rigged for cab control, and in all probability what you would see on an extended Keystone train would be something like a converted-Metroliner cab on one end, eith any 'multiples' of power needed for longer trains added to the opposite end rather than obligate top-and-tail (as in some of the Midwest corridors). In any case there would be no need for a bidirectional engine conversion as there would be little advantage in dropping HEP power to run the locomotive around the train at Springfield.
One possibility might be to repower with something like a modular QSK95 on a sled, optimized to run sans EGR or DPF with proportional use of SCR for all NO reduction at the higher peak temps for higher compression ratio, and updated generator; this has a lower required overhead height where the pan for dual-mode-lite could go. It should not be difficult to source uprated motors to match, say, what's stock for the Chargers, and you then have a perfectly adequate 110mph locomotive that can handle a Springfield (or Atlantic City or Northampton or B&A turn to Boston or any other long-distance one-seat-ride service that begins, ends, or uses unelectrified trackage) effectively.
I would add that option 2 on such a mechanical rebuild -- which would involve using the P32 dual-mode shoes and voltage-to-voltage transversion to DC-link instead of 11/12.5/25kV AC) is also possible if you do about a mile of third-rail installation west of Bergen Hill. That has the additional advantage (if there is the real point in it that some see) of giving runthrough from anywhere north of Baltimore onto the LIRR on either the electrified or unelectrified trackage.
What is the aversion to a cross-platform, coordinated change of trains to get to those less-frequented endpoints? It's done in Europe all the time. The insistence on a one-seat service increases complexity and cost.
Change at Jamaica.
OvermodI suspect current equipment on the Springfield line is rigged for cab control, and in all probability what you would see on an extended Keystone train would be something like a converted-Metroliner cab on one end, ...
As I recall, the Keystone service is already oprating this way, engine and cab-control car (although electric). This is needed since the train reverses direction midway at 30th St Station. As you say, no need for dual cab engines here.
charlie hebdo What is the aversion to a cross-platform, coordinated change of trains to get to those less-frequented endpoints? It's done in Europe all the time. The insistence on a one-seat service increases complexity and cost.
Agreed. The plan also creates a lot of extra trains in the middle of the NEC, which is already about saturated with commuter traffic.
A one-seat ride can be a major selling point. In 1953, Chicago Aurora & Elgin cut back its service from Wells St Terminal in the Loop to Forest Park due to construction of the Congress Expressway. Although excellent connections with the "L" were provided, ridership fell off considerably.
charlie hebdoWhat is the aversion to a cross-platform, coordinated change of trains to get to those less-frequented endpoints? It's done in Europe all the time. The insistence on a one-seat service increases complexity and cost.
When traveling by air you want to make a flight plan with 3 connections rather than a direct flight? [/sarcasm]
Customers don't want connections if they can be avoided.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
MidlandMikeAs I recall, the Keystone service is already oprating this way, engine and cab-control car (although electric). This is needed since the train reverses direction midway at 30th St Station. As you say, no need for dual cab engines here.
Consdiering the state of PA invested heavily in the Keystone service - I doubt they'll want that equipment going to Springfield.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
BaltACDWhen traveling by air you want to make a flight plan with 3 connections rather than a direct flight?
The issue in all these proposals is to have one trainset do the job of several in separate circulation, not add trains to congested parts of the NEC. The Harrisburg-to-Springfield train, for example, does the job of one Keystone service train, then one New York to New Haven train's worth of service, then a New Haven to Springfield train (either 'in place of' or supplementing capacity for the existing service on that line). This is little different from the idea of an LD train as serving all the demand between intermediate destination pairs in the target direction as it goes, 'at no additional charge'.
Note that ch said 'coordinated'. This means something a bit different in Europe, where the norm is reliable across-the-platform connection with minimal dwell and passengers requiring no luggage assistance. If there is no ease in going between the trains, or any difficulty finding a seat for the ongoing trip, or confusion in boarding -- then as noted customers will dislike the situation, and it may easily tip them into using a different mode if either the expectation or the experience involves such details.
There is a complicating factor of sorts in many European examples, though: transfer between trains is often effectively one-way due to necessarily short pathed dwell times. Unless you amend the schedule both to have 'slack' at certain stations and an extended planned dwell there, you will not have passengers able to go 'both ways' between trains. (The usual practice is, I suspect, to have 'local' passengers detrain an adequate length of time to go to boarding stations for expresses, so the latter can observe an appropriate sub-minute station dwell...)
In Germany, at least, dwell time of through trains is usually 2-3 minutes. If there is a sole connection, it's usually cross platform with a few minutes headway, depending on the number of tracks. If the connection is to some lesser branchline, the equipment might be diesel, battery or hydrogen cell power. The elderly seem to have no problems.
Overmod BaltACD When traveling by air you want to make a flight plan with 3 connections rather than a direct flight? I do all the time when it saves enough money to justify any inconvenience; I get scads more flyer miles out of the practice as well. Much of the issue getting between what might be greatly separated gates can be avoided by requesting assistance from those electric carts most terminals have.
BaltACD When traveling by air you want to make a flight plan with 3 connections rather than a direct flight?
I do all the time when it saves enough money to justify any inconvenience; I get scads more flyer miles out of the practice as well. Much of the issue getting between what might be greatly separated gates can be avoided by requesting assistance from those electric carts most terminals have.
It takes a special kind of person that desires to be inconvienced in transit for money. Most people do not fit that mold. If it works for you - Good.
Transfers between commuter trains go very well. Take the changes between 3 trains at the LIRR that takes places several times an hour.
blue streak 1Transfers between commuter trains go very well. Take the changes between 3 trains at the LIRR that takes places several times an hour.
Are there through train alternatives?
BaltACD Overmod BaltACD When traveling by air you want to make a flight plan with 3 connections rather than a direct flight? I do all the time when it saves enough money to justify any inconvenience; I get scads more flyer miles out of the practice as well. Much of the issue getting between what might be greatly separated gates can be avoided by requesting assistance from those electric carts most terminals have. It takes a special kind of person that desires to be inconvienced in transit for money. Most people do not fit that mold. If it works for you - Good.
Backshop BaltACD Overmod BaltACD When traveling by air you want to make a flight plan with 3 connections rather than a direct flight? I do all the time when it saves enough money to justify any inconvenience; I get scads more flyer miles out of the practice as well. Much of the issue getting between what might be greatly separated gates can be avoided by requesting assistance from those electric carts most terminals have. It takes a special kind of person that desires to be inconvienced in transit for money. Most people do not fit that mold. If it works for you - Good. You get a lot more miles using an airline's credit card than you do actually flying.
You get a lot more miles using an airline's credit card than you do actually flying.
Having retired - I want to get where I am going with a minimum of muss and fuss. The last time I was in the air was for my son's wedding in 2008. Direct flights both way's on Southwest. In fact, before I retired I wanted to get where I was going.
BaltACD blue streak 1 Transfers between commuter trains go very well. Take the changes between 3 trains at the LIRR that takes places several times an hour.
blue streak 1 Transfers between commuter trains go very well. Take the changes between 3 trains at the LIRR that takes places several times an hour.
It's as I remember "Change trains at Jamaica!!"
In New York it was always just "Change at Jamaica". And it was (reputedly) a zoo that no one liked...
OvermodThe issue in all these proposals is to have one trainset do the job of several in separate circulation, not add trains to congested parts of the NEC. The Harrisburg-to-Springfield train, for example, does the job of one Keystone service train, then one New York to New Haven train's worth of service, then a New Haven to Springfield train (either 'in place of' or supplementing capacity for the existing service on that line). This is little different from the idea of an LD train as serving all the demand between intermediate destination pairs in the target direction as it goes, 'at no additional charge'.
The problem is that the existing trains NY to New Haven are commuter trains making lots of stops using different equipment. Unless you are going to divert ATK Boston trains to Springfield, the new plan puts more trains on the crowded NY-NH segment (which is actually MetroNorth rather than "NEC").
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