Is taking a long distance Amtrak worth it in the 'post dining car' era?

[JPS1]

In FY19 the long-distance trains had a fully allocated loss of approximately $562 million.  Approximately 75 percent of the expenses associated with operating the long-distance trains are variable, which is to say they would or could go away in relatively short order if the trains were discontinued and the discontinuance was managed aggressively.

 

Amtrak’s weighted average interest rate on its long-term debt is 3.79 percent.  Assuming it could invest the savings from the discontinuance of the long-distance trains at the same rate, in 10 years the company could have $5.1 billion, which could be used to help fund improvements on the NEC.  If the money earned a return equal to the U.S. Treasury long-bond rate, the amount could be $4.5 billion.

 

The rates assume that transference of the savings from the discontinuance of the long-distance trains would reduce the amount of money Amtrak would have to borrow or receive from the federal government to upgrade the NEC.

 

Other than as political talking points, there is no reason to believe that the NEC would not be supported without the long-distance trains.  Or for that matter, there is no reason to believe that the corridor could not be made an attractive option for a government/private partnership.  Virgin Trains and Texas Central are about to show Amtrak how it can be done. 

[Memma]

The food on the California Zephyr is usually pretty good and as I said in a previous reply hasn't really changed.

I managed to dig up an article I wrote on the CA Zephyr for TrainReview - I'll include the link below - which has a lot of my images of food on thetrain!

https://trainreview.com/article/riding-the-california-zephyr-from-san-francisco-to-chicago

[charlie hebdo]

The Oak Room in Cleveland is now strictly catering.  Chicago Union Station has McDonald's, Dunkin' Donuts and other fast food/snack operations.  Penn Station in Manhattan has Moe's Southwest Grill and a Pret a Manger (sandwich shop).  Washington Union Station has many fast foods and even a few restaurants,  but none open much past 9 pm,  none of your 24-hour pizza joints. 

As I  said,  your scheme is unrealistic as a food source and smacks of someone out of touch with 2020 in the US. 

[daveklepper]

Most hotels do ave 24-hour room food-and-beverage service.

I gather, then, that the Oak kitchen, an d only the kitchen continues to exist. 

1.   Do they provide catering on an anyhtime basis?

2.  what is the former donig room ised for?

[daveklepper]

A New York reataurant supplyimg lomg distance trains could  provide hot food for trains leaving 11:30 - 1:30 and  5PM - 7PM for those willing to go ditrctly yo the diner after placing their carry-ons near their coach seat or in their rooms, and refrigerated food for microwave for other departures and passengers with other mneal-time preferences.   ETc.

[daveklepper]

Of the 562 million, how much was due to food and beverage service?

[JPS1]

daveklepper

 Of the 562 million, how much was due to food and beverage service? 

As per Page 28, Amtrak Five-Year Service Line Plans Fiscal Years 2020–2025 (Base + Five-Year Strategic Plan), Amtrak’s Food and Beverage loss in FY19 was $41.5 million. 

 

As per Page 3, Amtrak Office of Inspector General Food and Beverage Service: Potential Opportunities to Reduce Losses Audit Report OIG-A-2014-001, 99 percent of the food and beverage losses in 2012 were attributable to the long-distance trains.

 

Although there would be some variation from year to year, the percentage of Amtrak’s food and beverage losses attributable to the long-distance trains for FY19 probably would be close to what the IG found in 2012.  Lets say 94 to 99 percent, which means the dollar loss attributable to the long-distance trains probably would have been approximately $39 million to $41.1 million. 

[daveklepper]

Thanks.   I believe that loss  specifically can be eliminated.

If not by my restaurant scheme, then by far better use of current technology, firms already providing similar services for airlines, etc.

[JPS1]

The largest component of the cost of food and beverage on the long-distance trains is labor. 

 

As per the IG’s audit, in 2012 F&B revenues on the long-distance trains were $63.5 million.  Onboard labor was $75.3 million.  Commissary costs were $59.8 million.  Labor was a staggering 118.6 percent of revenues and 55.8 percent of total long-distance F&B expenses.

 

The average hourly average wage for an onboard F&B employee in 2012 was $25.54. Assuming the employees are paid for 2,080 hours per year, which is frequently used as a standard to calculate annual salary and wages, the direct pay for an onboard F&B employee in 2012 would have been $53,123.  The average annual total compensation expense was $88,970 per employee.   

 

Of course, without access to the labor contract, as well as the payroll subledgers, it is not possible to know for sure the average wages paid to an onboard F&B employee on the long-distance trains.  

 

If wages and benefits expenses for the long-distance trains have kept pace with inflation, in 2019 the average wage would have increased to $59,456 and the average total compensation expense would have increased to $99,577 per employee.   

 

No private food service entity could afford to pay the wage and compensation package that Amtrak pays its onboard F&B employees.  Moreover, if Amtrak tried to outsource the service, which it did on a limited basis, the unions would get their Congressional buddies to block it. 

[daveklepper]

Labor costs would be reduced drastically by the restaurant scheme, because cooks are cooking for a large public, not just railroad travelers, and are not being paid to travel or sleep away from home, just paid to cook.  Economies of scale would reduce costs of washing and sanitizing dishes and cups and knives and forks asd spoons,  One or two on-board employees would be able to handle most operations.  Econmies of scale would make preparation of quality meals far more ecnomical than in commisaries devoted only to rail passengers.

I don't accuse those that wish to eliminate LDTs of anything.  You are intelligent and logical.  But to me LDTs remain an extremely important part of Noirth American Civilazation, and to me, a bit of the Nrth American soul would be destroyed with their removal.

[Overmod]

JPS1

No private food service entity could afford to pay the wage and compensation package that Amtrak pays its onboard F&B employees.  Moreover, if Amtrak tried to outsource the service, which it did on a limited basis, the unions would get their Congressional buddies to block it. 

In addition to which, the current crew allocation is to run through, and presumably the union rate applies to everyone 'engaged to be waiting' whether actually serving or not.  I can almost not imagine the logistics of trying to coordinate coherent F&B replacements for many LD trains as if they were T&E, certainly not if positive attitude is supposed to be provided 'free of additional incentives' as seems to be current policy.

I continue to think that much of the jiving with diner reductions, substitution of cold plates, etc. is intended in some way to 'eliminate' parts of F&B from operations "long enough" to get rid of the union contracts and obligations.  Amtrak could then re-introduce food service of some kinds without the current difficulties ... or so would be the rationalization; we saw exactly how far that kind of rationalization would get them with the wheelchair-accommodation cost fiasco.  

[charlie hebdo]

daveklepper

Thanks.   I believe that loss  specifically can be eliminated.

If not by my restaurant scheme, then by far better use of current technology, firms already providing similar services for airlines, etc.

 

Airlines and food service?  What century are you referring to? 

[Electroliner 1935]

Does anyone know what Rockie Mountaineer pay their crew and food service staff?

Where is their crew base? Vancouver or Kamloops? I presume they pay for away from home lodging? The only serve breakfast and lunch but it is cooked om board (and is delicious).

[Overmod]

charlie hebdo

Airlines and food service?  What century are you referring to? 

Twenty-first:

Remember that he is talking about a range of products, and not necessarily full-tilt gourmet level meals on all trains.  Consider how much of the airline 'experience' transfers over to rail, and what the service and clean-up implications for rail would be.

 

[charlie hebdo]

At least on US domestic flights,  food service is non-existant in coach,  sketchy in business and first class.  International flights are different,  but hardly gourmet or substantial. 

[BaltACD]

I am surprised Amtrak, especially under Anderson, hasn't gone to the airlines standard - 'give' everyone a bag of pretzels and a half can of a soft drink.

[n012944]

charlie hebdo

sketchy in business and first class. 

 

 

Sketchy?  I take it you don't spend much time up there.  I only fly first class, and have yet to have a bad meal.  

[charlie hebdo]

Sketchy in the sense that it depends on the airline, destination  and length of flight.  Some excellent,  some fair. 

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

I will vouch that food service in first class on domestic flights on American Airlines is excellent.  You have two or three entree choices and they can be pre-ordered up to thirty days before your flight.

[charlie hebdo]

United:

https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/travel/inflight/dining/inflight-dining-changes.htmlin min

 American:

Hardly even modified regular meals, except to Hawaii or transcontinental flights. 

https://thepointsguy.com/news/inflight-service-resuming/

[n012944]

charlie hebdo

United:

https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/travel/inflight/dining/inflight-dining-changes.htmlin min

 American:

Hardly even modified regular meals, except to Hawaii or transcontinental flights. 

https://thepointsguy.com/news/inflight-service-resuming/

 

So you have to use a temporary modification during a pandemic to justify your incorrect statement?  Got it, say no more.

I have not flown during the pandemic, however my last flight was in Feburary.  All 4 legs were pretty short, JAX-DFW-LAS, and return.  I was given a meal on each leg, and was able to choose by meal before the trip.  They were all very good, not "sketchy" in the least.

[charlie hebdo]

I thought we were talking about the present.  Good chance food service will never return to what you like for at least 6-12 more months,  possibly never.  And 80% or more of passengers are in coach/cabin class.  There will be fewer businesses paying to fly managers around in the future,  so business class may disappear. 

[daveklepper]

Again, current situation, do ride the trains, wear masks unless well-isolated, and bring your own food.

And if I were riding coach and there wasn't anyone closer than ten feet, I'd ask permission of the conductor to remove my mask.

[Overmod]

daveklepper

And if I were riding coach and there wasn't anyone closer than ten feet, I'd ask permission of the conductor to remove my mask.

No; push it down, but keep it ready to pull back up and adjust.  

If you feel you have to cough or sneeze, raise and fit the mask.

If the conductor or another passenger engages in conversation, raise and fit.

If you want to talk on your telephone, raise and fit.  And wipe the phone down with 80% alcohol immediately afterward, and wash your hands.

In other words, don't do the voodoo or feel-good, but do engage in the things that demonstrably decrease risk to yourself and others.  Only when we have an atmosphere of trust that everyone 'does their part' can we open things further; on the other hand, it doesn't take more than one unmasked person having an argument into a phone to start a whole world of hurt.

[Samuel Johnston]

If you Need The Mileage/Trackage you NEED the mileage/trackage.  Go for it! because it might disappear for good--like the B&O Cumberland MD-Cincinnati which I did in September 1981 two weeks or so before that train came off; about half of that line is now abandoned and part made into hiking trails.  Yes, it was in an Amcoach; can't remember if there was any sort of food service at all.  I last ate in an AMTK diner on the Lake Shore in 2005 (breakfast & lunch); I bought a Subway sub and some CVS cranberry juice and seltzer for dinner out of Chicago--AMTK wanted $$$ for sleeper space so I went coach.  I still haven't ridden AMTK west of Chicago and I have only a few miles in the US west of the Mississippi--commuter trackage Glendale-LA Union Station.  I did across Canada in 1984 via CP.  So Just Do It!!

[GERALD A EDGAR]

What you & Amtrak forget to factor in is the connecting traffic from NEC and L/D trains.  We take the Cap Ltd twice yrly from Chi to DC, then board a NEC train to get to Wilmington where our son meets us.  Each trip we see a significant # of travelers boarding/exiting a NEC train after/before traveling via a L/D train.  This also affects our usage of the 'builder as we take it from La Crosse to CUS to use the Cap.  If the 'builder or Cap are dropped, we stop using Amtrak & will fly - period!

 

[n012944]

charlie hebdo

I thought we were talking about the present. 

Then why ask what century are we talking about?  To use a temporary situation to try and prove a long term point on how Amtrak could handle food in the future is pointless.  The airlines used a fantastic food service in the front of the aircraft less than 5 months ago and that could be adapted to Amtrak's service with ease.  

 

charlie hebdo

Good chance food service will never return to what you like for at least 6-12 more months,  possibly never.  And 80% or more of passengers are in coach/cabin class.  There will be fewer businesses paying to fly managers around in the future,  so business class may disappear. 

 

Doubtful that domestic first will be going anywhere.  I would not be surprised to see the demand for air travel to increase by 2025, if the work from home trend continues.  If one does not need to live in a commutable distance from their work, watch high tax, high cost of living places loose population to lower cost of living areas.  

 

I was talking to someone yesterday who used to lived on Long Island and moved to Florida last year.  She stated she is paying almost 20K less in taxes now than when she lived up north, with a slightly bigger house.  That would buy a lot of airline tickets and hotel stays for the occasional face to face meeting.  Places like New York and Illinois would lose out to places like Florida.

[Lansdowne John]

I haven’t taken a long distance train since the change in dinning car service has happened. However having heard from friends that have ridden they were all disappointed with the new meal service. However the meal service is only one aspect of taking a long distance train. I enjoy the views I can see from the train especially on the western trains. I would recommend packing some of your own favorite food that does not need to be heated or kept cold to suplement whatever Amtrak is offering. By the way I live in the northeast where we have very frequent regional service but I have ridden more long distance trains than the overpriced service offered here. So  count me as one who says a national system with long distance trains or no Amtrak.

[MarkSTM]

The dining car service is hardly "free."  Roomettes are very expensive.  In 2018, I flew First Class for less money (ca$830)Boston to Santa Fe NM than I paid for my 3'6" by 6'6" roomettes on the Southwest Chief and Lake Shore Limited spending 1 night on each train (ca$880) booked months in advance.  In most major cities I could get a beautiful hotel room for two nights at that price.  Sleeper class is approximately 3 times or more the price of coach class.  Just like the airlines, the roomette prices soar the closer you get to the departure date.  Dining cars have never ever "paid" for themselves but served as a draw for passenger traffic.  Railroads used to compete on service.  Today, just like air travel, it now seems to be a race to the bottom.

[charlie hebdo]

n012944: Since you choose to be obtuse and snarky,  here you are:

You ride first class for all air travel.  Ain't you special!  But it is unlikely that the level of service you decided was worth paying through the nose for can be applied to a rail service where multiple meals are served to at least 100 people,  probably more.