Is taking a long distance Amtrak worth it in the 'post dining car' era?

[Samuel Johnston]

If you Need The Mileage/Trackage you NEED the mileage/trackage.  Go for it! because it might disappear for good--like the B&O Cumberland MD-Cincinnati which I did in September 1981 two weeks or so before that train came off; about half of that line is now abandoned and part made into hiking trails.  Yes, it was in an Amcoach; can't remember if there was any sort of food service at all.  I last ate in an AMTK diner on the Lake Shore in 2005 (breakfast & lunch); I bought a Subway sub and some CVS cranberry juice and seltzer for dinner out of Chicago--AMTK wanted $$$ for sleeper space so I went coach.  I still haven't ridden AMTK west of Chicago and I have only a few miles in the US west of the Mississippi--commuter trackage Glendale-LA Union Station.  I did across Canada in 1984 via CP.  So Just Do It!!

[Overmod]

daveklepper

And if I were riding coach and there wasn't anyone closer than ten feet, I'd ask permission of the conductor to remove my mask.

No; push it down, but keep it ready to pull back up and adjust.  

If you feel you have to cough or sneeze, raise and fit the mask.

If the conductor or another passenger engages in conversation, raise and fit.

If you want to talk on your telephone, raise and fit.  And wipe the phone down with 80% alcohol immediately afterward, and wash your hands.

In other words, don't do the voodoo or feel-good, but do engage in the things that demonstrably decrease risk to yourself and others.  Only when we have an atmosphere of trust that everyone 'does their part' can we open things further; on the other hand, it doesn't take more than one unmasked person having an argument into a phone to start a whole world of hurt.

[daveklepper]

Again, current situation, do ride the trains, wear masks unless well-isolated, and bring your own food.

And if I were riding coach and there wasn't anyone closer than ten feet, I'd ask permission of the conductor to remove my mask.

[charlie hebdo]

I thought we were talking about the present.  Good chance food service will never return to what you like for at least 6-12 more months,  possibly never.  And 80% or more of passengers are in coach/cabin class.  There will be fewer businesses paying to fly managers around in the future,  so business class may disappear. 

[n012944]

charlie hebdo

United:

https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/travel/inflight/dining/inflight-dining-changes.htmlin min

 American:

Hardly even modified regular meals, except to Hawaii or transcontinental flights. 

https://thepointsguy.com/news/inflight-service-resuming/

 

So you have to use a temporary modification during a pandemic to justify your incorrect statement?  Got it, say no more.

I have not flown during the pandemic, however my last flight was in Feburary.  All 4 legs were pretty short, JAX-DFW-LAS, and return.  I was given a meal on each leg, and was able to choose by meal before the trip.  They were all very good, not "sketchy" in the least.

[charlie hebdo]

United:

https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/travel/inflight/dining/inflight-dining-changes.htmlin min

 American:

Hardly even modified regular meals, except to Hawaii or transcontinental flights. 

https://thepointsguy.com/news/inflight-service-resuming/

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

I will vouch that food service in first class on domestic flights on American Airlines is excellent.  You have two or three entree choices and they can be pre-ordered up to thirty days before your flight.

[charlie hebdo]

Sketchy in the sense that it depends on the airline, destination  and length of flight.  Some excellent,  some fair. 

[n012944]

charlie hebdo

sketchy in business and first class. 

 

 

Sketchy?  I take it you don't spend much time up there.  I only fly first class, and have yet to have a bad meal.  

[BaltACD]

I am surprised Amtrak, especially under Anderson, hasn't gone to the airlines standard - 'give' everyone a bag of pretzels and a half can of a soft drink.

[charlie hebdo]

At least on US domestic flights,  food service is non-existant in coach,  sketchy in business and first class.  International flights are different,  but hardly gourmet or substantial. 

[Overmod]

charlie hebdo

Airlines and food service?  What century are you referring to? 

Twenty-first:

Remember that he is talking about a range of products, and not necessarily full-tilt gourmet level meals on all trains.  Consider how much of the airline 'experience' transfers over to rail, and what the service and clean-up implications for rail would be.

 

[Electroliner 1935]

Does anyone know what Rockie Mountaineer pay their crew and food service staff?

Where is their crew base? Vancouver or Kamloops? I presume they pay for away from home lodging? The only serve breakfast and lunch but it is cooked om board (and is delicious).

[charlie hebdo]

daveklepper

Thanks.   I believe that loss  specifically can be eliminated.

If not by my restaurant scheme, then by far better use of current technology, firms already providing similar services for airlines, etc.

 

Airlines and food service?  What century are you referring to? 

[Overmod]

JPS1

No private food service entity could afford to pay the wage and compensation package that Amtrak pays its onboard F&B employees.  Moreover, if Amtrak tried to outsource the service, which it did on a limited basis, the unions would get their Congressional buddies to block it. 

In addition to which, the current crew allocation is to run through, and presumably the union rate applies to everyone 'engaged to be waiting' whether actually serving or not.  I can almost not imagine the logistics of trying to coordinate coherent F&B replacements for many LD trains as if they were T&E, certainly not if positive attitude is supposed to be provided 'free of additional incentives' as seems to be current policy.

I continue to think that much of the jiving with diner reductions, substitution of cold plates, etc. is intended in some way to 'eliminate' parts of F&B from operations "long enough" to get rid of the union contracts and obligations.  Amtrak could then re-introduce food service of some kinds without the current difficulties ... or so would be the rationalization; we saw exactly how far that kind of rationalization would get them with the wheelchair-accommodation cost fiasco.  

[daveklepper]

Labor costs would be reduced drastically by the restaurant scheme, because cooks are cooking for a large public, not just railroad travelers, and are not being paid to travel or sleep away from home, just paid to cook.  Economies of scale would reduce costs of washing and sanitizing dishes and cups and knives and forks asd spoons,  One or two on-board employees would be able to handle most operations.  Econmies of scale would make preparation of quality meals far more ecnomical than in commisaries devoted only to rail passengers.

I don't accuse those that wish to eliminate LDTs of anything.  You are intelligent and logical.  But to me LDTs remain an extremely important part of Noirth American Civilazation, and to me, a bit of the Nrth American soul would be destroyed with their removal.

[JPS1]

The largest component of the cost of food and beverage on the long-distance trains is labor. 

 

As per the IG’s audit, in 2012 F&B revenues on the long-distance trains were $63.5 million.  Onboard labor was $75.3 million.  Commissary costs were $59.8 million.  Labor was a staggering 118.6 percent of revenues and 55.8 percent of total long-distance F&B expenses.

 

The average hourly average wage for an onboard F&B employee in 2012 was $25.54. Assuming the employees are paid for 2,080 hours per year, which is frequently used as a standard to calculate annual salary and wages, the direct pay for an onboard F&B employee in 2012 would have been $53,123.  The average annual total compensation expense was $88,970 per employee.   

 

Of course, without access to the labor contract, as well as the payroll subledgers, it is not possible to know for sure the average wages paid to an onboard F&B employee on the long-distance trains.  

 

If wages and benefits expenses for the long-distance trains have kept pace with inflation, in 2019 the average wage would have increased to $59,456 and the average total compensation expense would have increased to $99,577 per employee.   

 

No private food service entity could afford to pay the wage and compensation package that Amtrak pays its onboard F&B employees.  Moreover, if Amtrak tried to outsource the service, which it did on a limited basis, the unions would get their Congressional buddies to block it. 

[daveklepper]

Thanks.   I believe that loss  specifically can be eliminated.

If not by my restaurant scheme, then by far better use of current technology, firms already providing similar services for airlines, etc.

[JPS1]

daveklepper

 Of the 562 million, how much was due to food and beverage service? 

As per Page 28, Amtrak Five-Year Service Line Plans Fiscal Years 2020–2025 (Base + Five-Year Strategic Plan), Amtrak’s Food and Beverage loss in FY19 was $41.5 million. 

 

As per Page 3, Amtrak Office of Inspector General Food and Beverage Service: Potential Opportunities to Reduce Losses Audit Report OIG-A-2014-001, 99 percent of the food and beverage losses in 2012 were attributable to the long-distance trains.

 

Although there would be some variation from year to year, the percentage of Amtrak’s food and beverage losses attributable to the long-distance trains for FY19 probably would be close to what the IG found in 2012.  Lets say 94 to 99 percent, which means the dollar loss attributable to the long-distance trains probably would have been approximately $39 million to $41.1 million. 

[daveklepper]

Of the 562 million, how much was due to food and beverage service?

[daveklepper]

A New York reataurant supplyimg lomg distance trains could  provide hot food for trains leaving 11:30 - 1:30 and  5PM - 7PM for those willing to go ditrctly yo the diner after placing their carry-ons near their coach seat or in their rooms, and refrigerated food for microwave for other departures and passengers with other mneal-time preferences.   ETc.

[daveklepper]

Most hotels do ave 24-hour room food-and-beverage service.

I gather, then, that the Oak kitchen, an d only the kitchen continues to exist. 

1.   Do they provide catering on an anyhtime basis?

2.  what is the former donig room ised for?

[charlie hebdo]

The Oak Room in Cleveland is now strictly catering.  Chicago Union Station has McDonald's, Dunkin' Donuts and other fast food/snack operations.  Penn Station in Manhattan has Moe's Southwest Grill and a Pret a Manger (sandwich shop).  Washington Union Station has many fast foods and even a few restaurants,  but none open much past 9 pm,  none of your 24-hour pizza joints. 

As I  said,  your scheme is unrealistic as a food source and smacks of someone out of touch with 2020 in the US. 

[Memma]

The food on the California Zephyr is usually pretty good and as I said in a previous reply hasn't really changed.

I managed to dig up an article I wrote on the CA Zephyr for TrainReview - I'll include the link below - which has a lot of my images of food on thetrain!

https://trainreview.com/article/riding-the-california-zephyr-from-san-francisco-to-chicago

[JPS1]

In FY19 the long-distance trains had a fully allocated loss of approximately $562 million.  Approximately 75 percent of the expenses associated with operating the long-distance trains are variable, which is to say they would or could go away in relatively short order if the trains were discontinued and the discontinuance was managed aggressively.

 

Amtrak’s weighted average interest rate on its long-term debt is 3.79 percent.  Assuming it could invest the savings from the discontinuance of the long-distance trains at the same rate, in 10 years the company could have $5.1 billion, which could be used to help fund improvements on the NEC.  If the money earned a return equal to the U.S. Treasury long-bond rate, the amount could be $4.5 billion.

 

The rates assume that transference of the savings from the discontinuance of the long-distance trains would reduce the amount of money Amtrak would have to borrow or receive from the federal government to upgrade the NEC.

 

Other than as political talking points, there is no reason to believe that the NEC would not be supported without the long-distance trains.  Or for that matter, there is no reason to believe that the corridor could not be made an attractive option for a government/private partnership.  Virgin Trains and Texas Central are about to show Amtrak how it can be done. 

[Enzoamps]

Not to belabor it , Dave, but cities like New York, Chicago, Boston, basically your list, are pretty much destinations.  Once you arrive there you won't likely want to stay on the train for food.  The LD trains need food service while en route.  If we ride from CHicago to Seattle, we won't dine in those cities on the train.  other than perhaps St.Paul, where would your restaurants be located?  On my Capitol, from Chicago to Washington, South Bend and CUmberland?  Or the other way,  MArtinsburg and South Bend?

Between CHicago and Los Angeles, you have Kansas City.  I assume you want a major city for your places.  That leaves Albuquerque which is twice the size of Lansing, Flagstaff at a third our size.  I brought up Lansing originally, not because I figured we would have the train business, but as an example of the sorts of cities along the distance train routes.  The cities that would have to support your restaurants.  The cross country routes really don't pass through that many cities of substantial size, like those on your list.

[daveklepper]

And meanwhile, do ride the trains.  When otherwise meeting your needs.  But bring your own food.  There is packaged food that requires only hot water to make a decent a tasty meal. And if you order tea or coffee or hot chocolate in the lounge car, the attendant usually will supply an extra glass of hot water.  And aren't their ice-cream, cream-cheese, and bagels still good quality?

And Penn Station and Washington Union, and Chicago Union and LA Union are hardly off-the-beaten-path.  Maybe even adapt an existing restaurant.  Is the Cleveland Oak Room still in business?

[daveklepper]

And the charge of living in the past was leveled at those that wisihed to build new light rail lines and even at the building of the Camden - Lindenwald extension to the Delaware River Port Authority's Bridge rapid transit line.  The Operation Philadelphia that intoduced the Silverliners to supplement the aging MP54s and Bluebirds, with the wisecrack "Mr. Temnnyson's trolley cars."  I've been through that already. "You are living in the past" is just another bit of name-calling.

Amtrak as a bunch of disconnected corridors is not going to make it because of the investment required, including the investment to put the NEC in a totally good state of repair, without Federal participation.  And you won't get that without a National system.  And that requires the LDTs.  And running anything without decent food is a disgrace unless the journey is less than two hours.

[daveklepper]

Lansing was not on my list.  New York, Chicago, New Orleans (although there one existing restaurant may be adapted, not far from NOUS, ditto Boston with SSta), Los Angles, Seattle, sure; others require some research.

Agreed that a local population base is necessary.

[Enzoamps]

I am sure they exist, but I have never seen 24 hour pizza joints.  My local Speedway gas stations have 24 hour food - roller pipe hot dogs - but even there the hot pizza slice thing closes about 10PM. Steak n Shake hardly counts as a real restaurant.

In Lansing, we have about 450,000 in the metro area,and as far as I can think, our 24 hour full service restaurants are a Dennys east of town, a classic Diner close to downtown, an ihop in the truckstop by the interstate west of town.  None near the train depot.

To succed, a restaurant either has to be a destination on its owwn, or be where ther is a lot of traffic.  We have many successful places near shopping areas and/or interstate exits.  We also have some places that have housed restaurant after restaurant, and they all failed.  Poor location.  Not run down area, no crime, just poorly located.  They tend to be off the beaten path, exactly where train stations almost always are located.

Lansing train depot is right off a corner of the MSU campus, a school of 45,000 students.  At least most years.  It is by the short road to the interstate ramp.  Along that short road is one of those serial restaurant killer spots, even located next to a hotel. A Wendy's on that street folded.  And others.  Other than kids trying to leave town, few often drive over to that area.  In busy areas, folks will shop and decide to dine at a nearby spot.  In an out of the way area, like say Toledo Union Station, there is no other reason to be there.  A restaurant there would have to be a big enough draw to get people to drive in from the suburbs.  It won't.