Shrike Arghast I haven't taken a cross-country Amtrak train since 2015 (the Coast Starlight from Seattle to LA), but I have really fond memories of the food, and thought it compared favorably to some cruise ships. However, I know that Anderson had proposed a bunch of not-so-awesome sounding changes to the dining cars that makes the prospect of a big trip sound far less appealing. I'm at least toying with taking the CZ westbound from Chicago to Emeryville this fall. What is the dining experience like on these trains now, and are the changes big enough that I should just shelve any notion of travel by rail in the U.S.?
I haven't taken a cross-country Amtrak train since 2015 (the Coast Starlight from Seattle to LA), but I have really fond memories of the food, and thought it compared favorably to some cruise ships. However, I know that Anderson had proposed a bunch of not-so-awesome sounding changes to the dining cars that makes the prospect of a big trip sound far less appealing.
I'm at least toying with taking the CZ westbound from Chicago to Emeryville this fall. What is the dining experience like on these trains now, and are the changes big enough that I should just shelve any notion of travel by rail in the U.S.?
From what I gather, traditional dining car service is suspended on long-distance trains from Chicago, westward; it will be restored when the COVID-19 pandemic is deemed to be under control (not yet as of today!). Meanwhile, AMTRAK will be offering flexible dining similar to what airline food was like before the pandemic; this is being offered on all long-distance trains for Sleeper Class only, again until the COVID-19 pandemic eases up. Coach Class passengers no longer have access to dining cars during the pandemic but may purchase food from the café car or Sightseer Lounge car in the meanwhile.
We will be traveling to Chicago (Capital Limited) and onward to Albuquerque (Southwest Limited) in Sleeper Class and will experience what you should have on the California Zephyr. The last time I rode in AMTRAK Sleeper Class was on the Empire Builder back in the late 1980's.
“Things of quality have no fear of time.”
Warren J Shrike Arghast I haven't taken a cross-country Amtrak train since 2015 (the Coast Starlight from Seattle to LA), but I have really fond memories of the food, and thought it compared favorably to some cruise ships. However, I know that Anderson had proposed a bunch of not-so-awesome sounding changes to the dining cars that makes the prospect of a big trip sound far less appealing. I'm at least toying with taking the CZ westbound from Chicago to Emeryville this fall. What is the dining experience like on these trains now, and are the changes big enough that I should just shelve any notion of travel by rail in the U.S.? From what I gather, traditional dining car service is suspended on long-distance trains from Chicago, westward; it will be restored when the COVID-19 pandemic is deemed to be under control (not yet as of today!). Meanwhile, AMTRAK will be offering flexible dining similar to what airline food was like before the pandemic; this is being offered on all long-distance trains for Sleeper Class only, again until the COVID-19 pandemic eases up. Coach Class passengers no longer have access to dining cars during the pandemic but may purchase food from the café car or Sightseer Lounge car in the meanwhile. We will be traveling to Chicago (Capital Limited) and onward to Albuquerque (Southwest Limited) in Sleeper Class and will experience what you should have on the California Zephyr. The last time I rode in AMTRAK Sleeper Class was on the Empire Builder back in the late 1980's.
Wow, what a downer. I wonder if they'll use this as an excuse to never bring dining cars back. Boy, this plus tri-weekly could just kill Amtrak outright. Guess that's the plan.
Shrike Arghast........ Boy, this plus tri-weekly could just kill Amtrak outright. Guess that's the plan.
The smart thing to do would be to kill the long-distance trains. They carry less than 1 percent of intercity travelers. Terminating them would not be the end of Amtrak. In FY19 the NEC carried 12.5 million riders; the state supported services had 15.4 million riders.
Amtrak's long-distance trains carry approximately 14.5 percent of its passengers. And just a bit over 2 percent of system passengers book a sleeper.
If Amtrak could shed the long-distance trains, it could redirect the monies lost on them to improving existing corridors or adding new ones. It is in relatively short, high density corridors that passenger trains make sense.
JPS: Do you have any idea of what percentage of the loss on LD trains is stemming from sleeper service, including the "free" dining car service?
JPS1 Shrike Arghast ........ Boy, this plus tri-weekly could just kill Amtrak outright. Guess that's the plan. The smart thing to do would be to kill the long-distance trains. They carry less than 1 percent of intercity travelers. Terminating them would not be the end of Amtrak. In FY19 the NEC carried 12.5 million riders; the state supported services had 15.4 million riders. Amtrak's long-distance trains carry approximately 14.5 percent of its passengers. And just a bit over 2 percent of system passengers book a sleeper. If Amtrak could shed the long-distance trains, it could redirect the monies lost on them to improving existing corridors or adding new ones. It is in relatively short, high density corridors that passenger trains make sense.
Shrike Arghast ........ Boy, this plus tri-weekly could just kill Amtrak outright. Guess that's the plan.
Why should taxpayers in states that - by your plan - suddenly become unserved sponsors of regional cooridors continue to pay out the nose when their national trains are stripped away? I'm sorry, but if Amtrak ever kills the long distance trains, the first thing I'm doing is writing letters to every representative who serves me pushing to shutter the remaining network. The precious NEC can go up in flames for all I care without those cross-country services.
Amtrak is proportionally a far more important conveyance to tiny towns in the middle of nowhere than huge urban areas where it plays an insignificant second fiddle to international airports. I don't give two figs about a "majority" - if these trains cannot meet long distance travel needs; if they are the exclusive playthings of wealthy coasts and a few choice midwestern and Texas corridors, then they don't deserve dime one from people locked out. It's a nationwide network or it's nothing.
Shrike ArghastWhy should taxpayers in states that - by your plan - suddenly become unserved sponsors of regional cooridors continue to pay out the nose when their national trains are stripped away?
Now to the extent general revenue is used for 'national' things (like high-speed NECIP capital stuff) the excuse is still going to be that the money enhances America overall, and stuff. That's been a standard highway excuse for many years. The catch is that individual taxpayers have little say in that sort of use of tax money, and I doubt there's enough single-issue organized clout to whack Amtrak out of future federal budgets on the sole absence of LD trains ... especially when so many population centers of voters (or potentially woke taxpayers) already know only 'zero service' or pathetic bus excuses.
Shrike Arghast JPS1 Shrike Arghast ........ Boy, this plus tri-weekly could just kill Amtrak outright. Guess that's the plan. The smart thing to do would be to kill the long-distance trains. They carry less than 1 percent of intercity travelers. Terminating them would not be the end of Amtrak. In FY19 the NEC carried 12.5 million riders; the state supported services had 15.4 million riders. Amtrak's long-distance trains carry approximately 14.5 percent of its passengers. And just a bit over 2 percent of system passengers book a sleeper. If Amtrak could shed the long-distance trains, it could redirect the monies lost on them to improving existing corridors or adding new ones. It is in relatively short, high density corridors that passenger trains make sense. Why should taxpayers in states that - by your plan - suddenly become unserved sponsors of regional cooridors continue to pay out the nose when their national trains are stripped away? I'm sorry, but if Amtrak ever kills the long distance trains, the first thing I'm doing is writing letters to every representative who serves me pushing to shutter the remaining network. The precious NEC can go up in flames for all I care without those cross-country services. Amtrak is proportionally a far more important conveyance to tiny towns in the middle of nowhere than huge urban areas where it plays an insignificant second fiddle to international airports. I don't give two figs about a "majority" - if these trains cannot meet long distance travel needs; if they are the exclusive playthings of wealthy coasts and a few choice midwestern and Texas corridors, then they don't deserve dime one from people locked out. It's a nationwide network or it's nothing.
Many of those states served by the LD trains are net recipients of federal dollars so your point about the NEC is in error. States like NY, NJ, IL and MA subsidize those states out west and south because it is one nation.
Of course if they no longer want welfare...
Shrike Arghast
Backshop Shrike Arghast That would be one...
That would be one...
I did not intend it in the literal sense. But boy oh boy, someone sure is eager to zing.
Shrike Arghast Backshop Shrike Arghast That would be one... I did not intend it in the literal sense. But boy oh boy, someone sure is eager to zing.
PS-As far as the comment about how much "isolated" communities depend on Amtrak; there are many more isolated communties that aren't served by Amtrak than those that are.
While I may not agree with the spirit of JPS' post, I agree with the conclusion. I love dining on the tain, but it is hardly the reason I take the train. Even back in the days of full dining car service, there were times that I boarded the train one stop out of DC, and the dining attendant came around to take dinner reservations, and by the time he got to my seat, all the dinner seatings had sold out. Disaappointing, but not so as to ruin my trip.
I'd prefer to have catfish and grits in the diner, but if I have to get a footlong and a bag of chips at SUbway to take on the train, so be it. I will still enjoy watching the mountains and streams of Pennsylvania and West Virginia and MAryland gliding by, as I sit in a comfortable seat sipping my drink from the club car. You can run me through HArper's Ferry a thousand times and I won't tire of it.
Still recall B&O personnel making the 'last call for alcohol' as The Capitol Limited approached Harpers Ferry and the crossing into West Virginia which was dry.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
My best train meal was on an Italian sleeper train from Paris to Florence in 2004. There were three choices at two different seatings. I had a home (train?) made turkey dish with wine, salad, dessert and coffee for about 20 Euros. After everyone was served they came around again and asked if anyone wanted more and they laid it on us. I knew it was made on the train because as I was sipping my pre-dinner wine, I could see the chefs working in the galley and I sure didn't see a microwave oven.
One of the best meals I ever ate and afterward I went to the counter at the end of the car and bought a couple of beers to take back to my first class compartment. It cost a fortune to have it to myself but it was worth every centime! I'd do it again tomorrow if I could.
I just want to ride the Pennsylvanian and the Capital Limited while they still exist. We've gone to CA on the SW chief, the CZ, and the Empire Buulder. Have ridden the Coast Starlight. But I really want to ride those two eastern trains. The food to me is immaterial, as long as there's something. To me it's about the scenery and the railroad sights. But not until Covid is gone.
I remember several good meals on board before the Amtrak era--and good service between Chicago and Albuquerque early in the second year of Amtrak. The last really good meal that I enjoyed was dinner in Arizona as I went from New Orleans to Los Angeles in 1980. (I did not travel in 1981) From then on, there was little, if any, variety between any two long distance trains. But, once Amtrak abandoned the McDonald's style (pay when you order), the meals were better than what is now provided for sleeper passengers only.
Johnny
charlie hebdo JPS: Do you have any idea of what percentage of the loss on LD trains is stemming from sleeper service, including the "free" dining car service?
Not really! But here are some of the things that I found regard Amtrak's food and beverage losses.
So, Amtrak buys liquor licenses from every state in which it serves liquor. I wonder: are West Virginia and other states that did not allow the serving of aloholic beverages on trains still dry?
Deggesty So, Amtrak buys liquor licenses from every state in which it serves liquor. I wonder: are West Virginia and other states that did not allow the serving of aloholic beverages on trains still dry?
I rode North on the Texas Eagle from Dallas to Chicago a few weeks ago and the Dining car food royally sucks. Very bad, in fact they tend to overcook it. The chicken rubber chini meal was exceptionally bad. Service is great though. They have one dining car attendent now that runs down stairs to get the meal you select, microwave it and bring it back up to you to serve you. I was the only one that sat in the entire dining car to eat during the seating times I selected. Most everyone else selected to have the meals brought to them to their sleeping car compartment.
Other than that and having to wear your mask outside your sleeping car compartment. Nothing has changed. Sleeper Bathroom cleanliness has gotten better and was at or better than McDonald Standards when I rode BUT that is because the passenger load is so light. Sleeper was less than half full and just about nobody at intermediate small town stops, only big city passengers.
One more thing, Amtrak is completely cash less on LD trains now. No credit card then no food or beverage.....lol. No I am not kidding.
CMStPnP No I am not kidding.
A lot of places are going that way. Cash is no longer king.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann CMStPnP No I am not kidding. A lot of places are going that way. Cash is no longer king.
Plastic fantastic. And some places don't want handle plastic - QR codes on phones.
I live in Illinois, and our sorry state cannot even figure out how to pay our own bills.
Our governor is aksing for pension bail out money from the Covid19 relief bill....
How do you figure Illinois is subsidizing anyone?
AMTRAKKER I live in Illinois, and our sorry state cannot even figure out how to pay our own bills. Our governor is aksing for pension bail out money from the Covid19 relief bill.... How do you figure Illinois is subsidizing anyone?
BackshopThe state of Illinois isn't subsidizing the western states, the people of Illinois are. They pay more federal taxes than are returned to Illinois. Many other states pay less and get more.
I do not place a lot of trust in those analysis because the larger populated states tend to also get huge Federal Grants that are left out of these calculations also hidden subsidies to the same states that are excluded. So for example, NY state. Do you think they include the Empire Corridor subsidies they get from the Feds for Amtrak in their calculations? What about NY's benefit from the multi-Billion Dollar grant of the future Amtrak tunnels they are seeking? What about berthing of visiting Navy ships and economic impact of that? What about Federal Emergency aid and recovery (for example 9-11)?
JPS1 charlie hebdo JPS: Do you have any idea of what percentage of the loss on LD trains is stemming from sleeper service, including the "free" dining car service? Not really! But here are some of the things that I found regard Amtrak's food and beverage losses. A 2005 IG report indicated that sleeping car passengers received a higher subsidy than long-distance coach passengers. The findings are dated, but the spread may still be present. As per Page 27 of the Amtrak Service Line Plans |FY2020 – 2025, the food and beverage loss in FY19 was $41.5 million, which was down from approximately $72 million in 2012. According to a 2013 IG audit of Amtrak’s Food and Beverage services, approximately 99 percent of the F&B losses were attributable to the long-distance trains. The percentages may have changed since 2013, but I suspect that at least 90 percent or $37.4 million of the FY19 loss is attributable to the long-distance trains. According to the report, a portion of sleeper-class revenue is transferred to the food and beverage account. It is based on the menu price of meals consumed. When the Marketing Department sets the prices for sleeper tickets, which includes transportation and meals, it does (did) not consider the cost of providing the food and beverages as per the audit findings. The report found that the Great Southern Rail in Australia and the Rocky Mountaineer in Canada set ticket prices to recover the cost of food and beverages that go along with the ticket. Here is something a gave me a bit of a chuckle. Amtrak has to buy a liquor license for every state where booze is sold on its trains. In 2012 it cost the company approximately $88,000 excluding the administrative cost associated with obtaining the licenses.
Thank you for the information. So services to some communities could be run at a smaller load if sleeper passengers paid the actual cost of sleepers plus F&B, maybe.
I feel the need to reply to:
daveklepperI have never enjoyed dinner more than savorinig the Rocky Mountain Trout on the D&RGW
Same here! The single best and most memorable meal I ever had aboard any train.
daveklepperAnd I am convinved that the station restaurant with take-out is the solution to the problem.
And I'm convinced this is an 1860's solution to the problem.
NKP guyNKP guy wrote the following post 28 minutes ago: daveklepper I have never enjoyed dinner more than savorinig the Rocky Mountain Trout on the D&RGW Same here! The single best and most memorable meal I ever had aboard any train.
I agree that the CZ & its reincarnation as the Rio Grande Zepher served a delicious Trout. I have enjoyed many a good meal on trains including some on Amtrak. For a period, they had regional menus that included Creole dishes on the City of New Orleans back in the late 70's or 80's. And on a trip on the CNO with my son, I remember requesting & receiving permission to ride in the ex SF Hilevel ElCapitan Coaches that were on the end of the train to be used North of Carbondale. We had the cars to ourselves. In the morning, came down the stairs and crossed over to the diner and enjoyed perfect RR French Toast. Also, riding the Broadway Limited and having dinner in the twin car diner during a rain storm in Indiana running alongside US Rt 30. Watching the autos kick up spray as we roll past them whie enjoying a good meal was nice. On a vacation trip when we rode the Empire Builder in '68, My son (age 7) got a little nausia from the diesel fumes in Cascade Tunnel so he and I did not have diner but later went to the Ranch Coffee Shop car where he had a BLT and declared it was the BEST he had ever had. I think an appetite had something to do with it.
On the other end of meal service, in '67, on the Monon's Throughbred train to Louisville, a news butch was serving the "food" from his cooler in the vestibule of one of the coaches and I watched as he "built" a ham sandwich from a loaf of white bread (2 slices), a smear of butter, three thin slices of ham, and one leaf of lettuce, slid it into a glassine bag and Whalla. ONE HAM SANDWICH. I don't recall where he got off but I suspect it was Crawfordsville. That was better than nothing.
CMStPnP What about berthing of visiting Navy ships and economic impact of that?
What about berthing of visiting Navy ships and economic impact of that?
NKP guy And I'm convinced this is an 1860's solution to the problem.
And that was in an age largely of low wage or other 'people' costs ... and a surplus of immigrant or other groups willing to work hard and willingly for those low wages.
In something like a Rocky Mountaineer where the luxury can be built in without excuse, you can afford to run staffed diners with efficient commissary backup, cordon bleu chefs, attentive and memorable service. How you even approximate that on a transportation service fraught with its own politics and lacking more than a circumstantial organizational esprit de corps is trouble enough. How it could reliably pay its way is worse.
On the other hand, longer and longer LD trips will be intolerable without sensible food options... which must either conform to profitability if Amtrak provided, or offer dependable service at all times, if Amtrak-coordinated. It is difficult to imagine a 'catering' commissary model with adequate non-Amtrak business to thrive as needed, to be able to afford the food cost and prep time in the necessary range of meal options, and to act successfully in dispensing 'wasted' or unclaimed meals as 'profitably' as possible. Perhaps some locations with Mr. Klepper's 'station restaurants' can manage that; it is quite certain to me that few if any post-1870s methods of providing food on trains will do better.
Again, I think my station restaurant concept can solve the problem, where the food brought to the dining cars, either eaten while still warm or refrigorated for microwave, is only a small part of a large bfoad-menue operation that includes sit-down, take-out, and possibly home and office delivery.
daveklepperAgain, I think my station restaurant concept can solve the problem, where the food brought to the dining cars, either eaten while still warm or refrigorated for microwave, is only a small part of a large bfoad-menue operation that includes sit-down, take-out, and possibly home and office delivery.
The station restaurant concept can only work IF the restaurant is a draw for the locals in numbers far beyond whatever Amtrak clientele gets involved in it. Secondly will Amtrak make a 'meal stop' or will the meals be loaded on the train in bulk and then distributed by Amtrak personnel. If there is a meal stop, will Amtrak pay the track owner additional fees for increased track occupancy? Will there be meals to order, or 'one size fits all'? If it is meals to order - what kind of infrastructure will be implemented to facilitate the ordering? Who pays for the trash disposal for all the trash that is created on the trains from the 'leftovers' from the meal service?
There is much more complexity to the station restaurant concept than first meets the eye.
It's logistically impossible in most cases to 'dwell' any LD train while the passengers get off and scarf down the equivalent of a 'Demi-poulet avec vin rouge', let alone have a leisured dining experience. In some cases it might be possible to let passengers detrain to get their meals, or pick them up as delivered to trainside. But that's about the extent of it.
That means a choice of menu of three basic kinds: packaged with minimal prep (for taking to rooms directly, perhaps with special heat and cold provision); items for lounge make-ready (microwave or convection reheat with no more than spot prep or quick finish cooking; attractive plating and presentation but no 'waiter' table service other than perhaps drinks); and actual sit-down prep and service, using the diners but not relying on commissary stocking, unused food, prep requirements etc. It may be possible to pass most or all the plates, silverware, etc. off the train in sealable containers, to be 'contract-washed' at a corresponding 'station restaurant' for the opposite direction.
At least theoretically -- I have described some ways to make this workable at least in principle -- you can have some of the 'diner' attendant staff board with the food, and detrain with the dishes, to keep them out of the four-day rotation of death that would involve one food crew riding end to end. Relatively easy, to the extent any restaurant can do it, to adjust the called staff to the actual service requirements on a particular day.
Frankly I think the analogue of an upscale version of a Holiday Inn Express free breakfast bar could easily be put in portable carts, and the food prep as easily done by one or two people in the diner as is done in the motel. An analogue for all-you-can-eat-within-reason (as for evenings at Drury) could be similarly arranged for lunch or even dinner.
If a better than passable meal service on longer train rides is required, simply copy the model used by Deutsche Bahn. It's not rocket science.
charlie hebdo If a better than passable meal service on longer train rides is required, simply copy the model used by Deutsche Bahn. It's not rocket science.
Definitely boarded on the train:
JPS1What is it about the “meal model” used by Deutsche Bahn that should make me want to go there? And eat a sit-down meal on a train?
There are a couple of very good pages at bahn.de that cover the recent meal program and some of the reasoning behind it -- but for some reason my mobile browsers render these detail pages only in German whether or not I select the 'English' version of the site (tab at upper right), and then Google Translate has some weird snit about scraping the page text content and rendering it as English.
Some of the DB incentives, like hiring yearly 'chef advisors' who are famous in the food community or influencers with substantial media following, are things that have in some form been tried in the States -- and some of the ways the food is served, facilities used and kept clean, and waste/trash is handled might be issues for union discussions. The most important thing I see to be adopted here, though, is the kind of enthusiastic top-down championing that is an essential precondition for effective implementation of Six-Sigmaesque quality improvement. DB shows it while Amtrak mouths expediency and experimental cost reduction to 'game' parts of the Congressional profitability mandate.
Overmod JPS1 What is it about the “meal model” used by Deutsche Bahn that should make me want to go there? And eat a sit-down meal on a train? I think there is more in the attitude DB uses and in some of the plans they have than in applicability of the exact amenities and menu choices. There are a couple of very good pages at bahn.de that cover the recent meal program and some of the reasoning behind it -- but for some reason my mobile browsers render these detail pages only in German whether or not I select the 'English' version of the site (tab at upper right), and then Google Translate has some weird snit about scraping the page text content and rendering it as English. Some of the DB incentives, like hiring yearly 'chef advisors' who are famous in the food community or influencers with substantial media following, are things that have in some form been tried in the States -- and some of the ways the food is served, facilities used and kept clean, and waste/trash is handled might be issues for union discussions. The most important thing I see to be adopted here, though, is the kind of enthusiastic top-down championing that is an essential precondition for effective implementation of Six-Sigmaesque quality improvement. DB shows it while Amtrak mouths expediency and experimental cost reduction to 'game' parts of the Congressional profitability mandate.
JPS1 What is it about the “meal model” used by Deutsche Bahn that should make me want to go there? And eat a sit-down meal on a train?
I think there is more in the attitude DB uses and in some of the plans they have than in applicability of the exact amenities and menu choices.
We need a mandate to make Congress profitable instead of being a cost center.
I would not suggest someone should visit Germany just to sample their food services. They are simply an adjunct to an excellent rail transportation service. However, the food is good, menus have variety and it is affordable. The crews are service-oriented, friendly and informative. Cleanliness is top-notch. Pretty clearly excellence is a commitment to bottom.
BaltACDWe need a mandate to make Congress profitable instead of being a cost center.
NOW you're talking! I second the idea.
I visited Germany several times 1960 - 1994, and have reported in detail preveously. I was never expecting anything as marvelous as D&RGW Rocky Mountain Trout, but all train meals were good-to-excellent, service always excellent, and the trains themselves excellent. After 1970, no trouible meeting my "special diatary requiremenets," even easier then Amrak since no prior arrangement was required. In Europe, only the Swiss are even better. In fact. if Germany's specialty is Orchetral Music and Bach, France Food and Frank. and Italy Opera, I'd say the great art-form of Switzerland is railroads. Well. the scenery and its challenges make that possible. The food on their trains is great also, when available.
Electroliner 1935 BaltACD We need a mandate to make Congress profitable instead of being a cost center. NOW you're talking! I second the idea.
BaltACD We need a mandate to make Congress profitable instead of being a cost center.
The concept that the legislature must in and of itself be profitable is frightening.
Don't think that we'll ever see traditional dining on Amtrak again. COVID-19 just accelerated the process.
Toronto Fan Don't think that we'll ever see traditional dining on Amtrak again. COVID-19 just accelerated the process.
Should traditional dining on Amtrak's trains come back?
Approximately 85 percent of Amtrak's long-distance passengers ride coach. Would they really raise a fuss if the dining cars were scrapped in favor of an expanded menu in the lounge car?
Ideally, if it were not for the politics, the long-distance trains would be scrapped. They don't make any economic sense. But politics being politics, that probably won't happen. So, one alternative could be to reconfigure the long-distance train to make it less labor intensive.
If I were in charge and could get away with it, I would scrap the baggage, sleeping and dining cars. I would replace the sleeper with a business class car equipped with pods similar to those found on overseas flights. A train would have one or two business class cars, an enhanced lounge car, and coach/baggage cars.
According to Amtrak's passenger profiles, a typical sleeping car passenger is on the train for just one night; a typical coach passenger is on the train for less than 10 to 12 hours. If people can handle an overnight flight from LAX to Sydney in a business class pod, they can handle one night in a similar arrangement on an Amtrak train.
Amtrak should be able to structure its service for what future generations are likely to want, use, and pay for. Not what a bunch of geezers (that's me) think is required because of tradition.
In earlier threads, have come up with comprehensive and important answers to all the comments in the previous post. Implementation of my ideas would expand the market instead of contracting it depriving those who value the LD service the most of that service with the implumentation of your ideas.
JPS1.
Great idea!!
daveklepper Implementation of my ideas would expand the market instead of contracting it depriving those who value the LD service the most of that service with the implumentation of your ideas.
daveklepper In earlier threads, have come up with comprehensive and important answers to all the comments in the previous post. Implementation of my ideas would expand the market instead of contracting it depriving those who value the LD service the most of that service with the implumentation of your ideas.
I think Overmod gave a well-reasoned response to your idea on another thread.
You said you were submitting this plan to Amtrak. Any response?
As much as I love trains, I also think of opportunity cost. If just thinking in terms of transporting people a long distance (and/or through lightly populated regions), limited to ground transportation, a lot of money channeled to Amtrak LD could be used to offer long distance travel by highway in comfortable, luxury vehicles without stepping on a lot of private sector toes.
Gramp ....a lot of money channeled to Amtrak LD could be used to offer long distance travel by highway in comfortable, luxury vehicles without stepping on a lot of private sector toes.
Or better yet, as shown in the link, encourage the private sector to offer luxury service where it is feasible. Which is what Vonlane is doing in Texas.
I don't know how they are doing financially, but they have been expanding their network.
https://www.vonlane.com/
JPS1I don't know how they are doing financially, but they have been expanding their network. https://www.vonlane.com/
Take the list of 'preferred anenities' from the previous posted list: 'pod' amenities or equivalent; different levels of food service including dedicated Klepper-style station prep... use those as your amenity baseline and then run down last fall's list of 'easy-to-implement' Delta amenities.
I've taken Amtrak a lot in the post dining car change era - the changes whilst disappointing on the CA Zephyr haven't changed the actual food - you just get plastic plates - it's not like on the East Coast.
It's an amazing trip, I'd say do it!
1 I agree that the extra cost of sleeper service should be reflected in ticket prices, and the occopancy rate of many of the sleeper services idicates that should be possible.
2. The recent huge proliferation of the number of all-night Pizzarias in most USA cities (and in Jerusalem!) indicates one 7/24 full-service restaurant should be a success, and an Amtrak station location, if not in an unsafe neighborhood, would encourage train travel.
3. Amtrak's Trhuway bus connections do bring LDT to most of the cities listed without Amtrak service.
daveklepper2. The recent huge proliferation of the number of all-night Pizzarias in most USA cities (and in Jerusalem!) indicates one 7/24 full-service restaurant should be a success, and an Amtrak station location, if not in a "combat zone." would encourage train travel.
What is a "combat zone"?
243129 What is a "combat zone"?
CSSHEGEWISCH 243129 What is a "combat zone"? It's a derogatory euphemism used to refer to a rough neighborhood.
Amtrak Throughway Buses? Here in Lansing, MI I have to catch the Capitol in Toledo Ohio. I can take the Amtrak bus from th Lansing depot, and depending upon the weekday it is a 4 to 5 hour trip. I can drive to the Toledo Union Station in about an hour and 20 minutes. The bus is not an attractive option. Not only that, parking is free in TOledo, but the lot at the Lansing station charges.
243129 CSSHEGEWISCH 243129 What is a "combat zone"? It's a derogatory euphemism used to refer to a rough neighborhood. Thanks but I was looking for Dave's explanation. He made the statement.
Thanks but I was looking for Dave's explanation. He made the statement.
And it fits in with Dave's world views in many ways.
243129 daveklepper 2. The recent huge proliferation of the number of all-night Pizzarias in most USA cities (and in Jerusalem!) indicates one 7/24 full-service restaurant should be a success, and an Amtrak station location, if not in a "combat zone." would encourage train travel. What is a "combat zone"?
daveklepper 2. The recent huge proliferation of the number of all-night Pizzarias in most USA cities (and in Jerusalem!) indicates one 7/24 full-service restaurant should be a success, and an Amtrak station location, if not in a "combat zone." would encourage train travel.
Yoo hoo Dave ???
I've seen the term used a number of times on this Forum for:
An unsafe neighborhood, one where visitors do not feel safe after dark and/or where avoidance of exposed use of expensive camera equipment is suggested by the person posting.
I don't think NYCity Penn Station, Washington Union, LA Union, Boston South Station. and most other important Amtrak stations fall into this catagory. I've seen the term posted more often regarding photo sites and interlocking towers.
Overmod: Were not your Australian friends traveling to the USA on business. and not as tourists?
Of course, the question is: Could current Amtrak levels of food and service be recommended for foreign tourists?
When I was a frequent user of the LDTs, 1954 - 1996, I often did meet foreign tourists. Even on the hard-to-book but most worthwhile Rio Grande Zephyr.
And some assumptions about my World View just might be in error.
daveklepperOvermod: Were not your Australian friends traveling to the USA on business. and not as tourists?
daveklepperI've seen the term used a number of times on this Forum
Nice try at damage control but any way you look at it it is an elitist term for a poor neighborhood.
daveklepperAnd some assumptions about my World View just might be in error.
Your "World View" is perfectly clear.
Sure, but (1) I was not the first to introduce it to this website, simply repeating a term that others introduced before me. (2) It is not really a synonym for a poor neighborhood, but for an unsafe neighborhood.
But you are correct. I should simply use the words unsafe neighborhood. So now I will, using the Edit Button.
And if you think my view of how to correct the problems of such neighborhoods is aligned with possibly that of the current President, indicated by some of his divisive statements, then possibly you are mistaken about my World View.
But you taught me a lesson. Avoid falling into the trap of using popular expressions unless they truly express one's own thinking.
For that, I must thank you!
But back to the basic question asked on this thread's first posting:
Sure the specific train is worth riding if it meets your requirements independent of the food question. If the food served onboard doesn't appeal, bring your own.
Then the sleeper service is a separate issue and should be looked at on a case-by-case basis, available where markets can support it where it can be priced to reduce and not increase subsidy or increase and not reduce profitability. This make the National system more valuable to more people.
And even without 1st Class or sleeper service, a coach passenger should not be forced to accept meals inferior to what he or she regularly enjoys when he or she is not traveling. The restaurant scheme should solve that problem.
About three years ago, I posted on this Forum or Classic Trains the incident of the New Haven Dispatcher stopping the Owl for an unscheduled stop at Stamford, so I could use my GCT - Boston roomette ticket after a meeting at Christ Episcopal Church, Greenwich, CT, lasted two hours longer than expected. Year, 1959. Well, something similar happened in Jerusalem a few days ago.
I normally use the 255 or 275 from the bus stop, about 50 yards from the back door, to Damascus Gate, then the light rail to Amunition Hill, and then the Egged 52 or 34 to a stop right behind my apartment building. That evening I was carrying computer equipment in my backpack to my apartment, heavy, and my right foot hurt. And halfway to the bus stop I realized I had not put on my face-mask and had left it at my desk. I returned, got a mask, and then decided to spring for a cab, and tried ordering one with my cellphone while also trying to hail one at the back door. No luck either way. 50 yards from the bus stop. Lo and behold the very last bus to Damascus Gate, a 255 small hood-in-front, approached, I hailed it, and miracles-of-miracles, it stopped for me. I said my usual good evening, Misa'al akher, and added Shukhran Kabir, thank you very much, as I handed the driver the exact two-and-one-half Sheckles and sat at the rear. Leaving, I said Shukhran, ala lika, thanks, see you again, and he responded with Shalom, l'hitraote, Peace, see you again.
I suspect that bus driver may know my World View better than Mr. Numbers knows.
daveklepper Were not your Australian friends traveling to the USA on business. and not as tourists?
I worked closely with 12 to 15 Australians. I got to know them reasonably well. Of those traveling to the U.S. for a holiday, which is Australian speak for vacation, not a one of them intended to ride any of Amtrak's trains. Also, I socialized with numerous Australians and Kiwis. I don’t recall any of them coming to the U.S. for a train ride.
I am a social person; I talk to anyone that cares to listen. The flight from Melbourne to LAX takes about 14 hours, which affords a lot of opportunity to chat with people. I never met anyone that said they had booked an Amtrak trip.
I don’t mean to imply that my experiences represent a statistical sample of the intentions of Australians traveling to the U.S. Some of them probably did come to take an Amtrak train. I just never had any colleagues or friends do so.
In 2017, according to the U.S. State Department, 79.6 million tourists visited the U.S. These are the latest statistics. I am hard pressed to believe that the number of visitors would have been significantly different if Amtrak had killed the long-distance trains in 2016.
daveklepperAnd if you think my view of how to correct the problems of such neighborhoods is aligned with possibly that of the current President, indicated by some of his divisive statements, then possibly you are mistaken about my World View.
Where did you express your "view"? Where did I say anything about the "current President" that would prove me mistaken about your "World View"[sic] ?
Yours truly,
"Mr. Numbers"
243129Nice try at damage control but any way you look at it it is an elitist term for a poor neighborhood.
There may be people who whine about elitism being the problem, instead of tolerance of criminal behavior in a given neighborhood. I leave such pathetic opinions to those who choose to entertain them. Same to anyone who drags ethnic or religious preference into what constitutes such a neighborhood, which I don't think Mr. Klepper was intending but which certain critics seemed very eager to establish for reasons I find uncomfortably reminiscent of another form of insufferable prejudice.
At least he seems to have emended the phrase that caused the knees to jerk, so we can get back to the subject of making the Amtrak food 'experience' better at workable cost and with workable systems.
In the context that "Mr. Klepper" used it it smacks of elitism.
Overmod Any correlation with 'poverty' or 'being on the wrong turf' is strictly circumstantial.
Are there any "combat zones" in affluent neighborhoods?
243129Are there any "combat zones" in affluent neighborhoods?
In the 1970s, my neighborhood in Englewood began to be affected by increasing levels of after-dark drive-by muggings, crime, and what would now be called home invasions. This was facilitated by very rapid access from our East Hill neighborhood to the George Washington Bridge and thence to Manhattan. In few cases could the police respond timely to one of these; you were essentially on your own in figuring out how to dissuade the 'criminal element' from choosing you or your house as a target of opportunity. But the polce were certainly eager to stop anyone they could profile on made-up suspicion. At that time I was driving a 1962 Thunderbird, and my best high-school friend had a 1962 Cadillac. It was surprising how many times he was pulled over and stopped by the Englewood police... who, by the way, all knew my father and I very well... on the most ridiculous pretexts, any of which could randomly become arrests or worse. These were the years in which you'd read in news stories that drug suspects were arrested for 'speeding' 65mph on the New Jersey Turnpike, a road on which the 83rd percentile speed at the time was well over 70mph.
The objective danger to prospective Amtrak passengers seeking a meal, or of businesses interested in providing catering or outsourcing to Amtrak trains (presumably largely supplemented by direct visits or nondelivery take-out business), is from objective violence, or the perceived threat of the same. There is, in fact, a difference between that and beng bothered by noisy panhandlers or other 'street people', or in fact other denizens of the inconvenient poor ... which is precisely why a 'combat' metaphor is used instead of a euphemism for 'folks not as good as we think we are'.
Is there any chance we can move this discussion back to trains? Going back and forth over what to call whom got old a while back. Everyone with a iron in that fire has said what he thinks of the other. Further back and forth adds nothing. Stop.
In my opinion it wasn't inappropriate for Mr. Klepper to introduce one of the potential conditions that would make his 'station restaurant' idea founder. We might pick up the discussion more rationally by asking what other 'local conditions' might damage the practicality of restaurants in the 'key' Amtrak station locations being able to attract and sustain the local traffic necessary to keep them profitable. I frankly don't have much enthusiasm for that sort of thing.
To an extent that discussion will indeed involve ideas that will count as 'elitist', which can only partially be justified by their being 'expedient' to make the station-restaurant paradigm workable. One of these would be tacit or explicit gentrification/real-estate development that creates a 'friendly' place for enough trendy gourmands to find attractive ... incidentally removing inconveniently-homeless or "lower-income" former residents or denizens. Another would be more active policing, rousting, etc. before the restaurant neighborhood hours, and presumably into the wee entertainment hours for the presumably affluent patrons to make their way back to their affluent digs. I don't much care for that kind of development or the 'peace' that usually is created to accompany snd facilitate it.
It would not be impossible to integrate neighborhood support for the less-well-off into a station restaurant scheme -- meals-on-wheels for those unable to prepare meals is one approach, providing soup-kitchen support another; there are more and I think we might benefit from brainstorming them a bit. One would like to see an inclusive neighborhood 'culture' at all hours that was sustainable as a community initiative -- the approach has worked in some greater-New York areas.
Overmoda 'combat' metaphor is used instead of a euphemism for 'folks not as good as we think we are'.
TA DA !!!
FYI: There is a strong correlation between poverty and rough neighborhoods or combat zones. Dismissing that because one doesn't like it or it doesn't fit with their worldview ignores reality.
David K: Both Overmod and JPS1 have posts showing the fallacy of your station restaurant idea. Your only response was to insist you are correct.
Frankly, the idea is rather obsolete. Fred Harvey and the Santa Fe started doing it in1876.
How many times can you beat your dog before he turns on you?
A nd I have seen some people provoke others so that they have the justification to administer more pain. At some point, some will see no recourse but to fight back. There are many cases of wives being beat and/or abused and eventualy reacting by killing their husbands. Because they believe the system has failed them. Of course in the days of slavery, any sign of rebellion was cause for significant retribution to the enslaved. And this begat the idea that the privilaged had to "keep" them in their place or they might rebell. How many black people have been killed by police in the last couple of years. I don't condone some of the bad things happening with the protests (looting and burning) but the peaceful protests are, in my opinion, justified. Keeping your knee on a persons neck for >8 minutes is murder. Shooting a man with a knife multiple times as he's walking (LaQuan) is murder. Just to name two. I don't have the answer but sending in Federal Officers in unmarked vehicles and with no identity (shades of Hitlers Storm Troopers) is (again in my opinion) not legal and I believe unconstittional. Cheeto (my daughters name for Donald) is acting like a central america dictator (again in my opinion) because he thinks his base will reward him come November.
I hope this doesn't get me banned from here but to bring it back to the original theme, Greyhound, I think, still stops busses at some fast food places for meal breaks. A long number of years ago, I remember the bus pulling into a McDonalds along I 65, in Indiana for food and restrooms (even tho it had a loo on the bus). And most major Greyhound stations had coffee shops.
Electroliner1935: I for one am glad you posted that. It needs to be said even though some on here won't like it and might go wailing to the moderators.
The offical FBI statistics as reported by the Washington Post newspaper for the 2019 Federal year showed 1,004 individuls were killed by police officers. By sex there were 961 males and 43 females. By race classification their were 371 whites, 236 blacks, 158 hispanics, 39 other, and 200 unknown. There were only 41 cases where the deceased was not armed with a weapon. Of that 41, 22 were white, 10 black, 8 hispanc, and 1 other. Of the 10 blacks, 4 cases were found to be justified due to evidence the deceased was trying to hit police with a vehicle, 2 were ruled justified due to extreme threatening actions by the deceased, 2 resulted in police officers being charged, and 2 were still being investigated with no charges against police officers filed at that time. [I forgot to note how many of the non-black deceased making up the 41 were trying to run over police with their vehicle when they were shot & killed but it was the main cause mentioned.]
If you google the Washington Post you can actually find a matrix they have of all 1,004 cases showing more details for each one and also the breakout for each state.
There are either approximately 700,000 or 800,000 law enforcement of one type or another in the USA according to what I've read in various sources. Not sure why the difference but I suspect the larger count might include game wardens, border patrol, volunteer police including fire police, DA investigators, maybe military police, and so on.
Most sources seem to indicate that there are around 12M crimes committed annually in the US. Again, I can't find how that number is arrived at. Because the number of those present in the US undocumented/illegally is estimated to be between 10M and 20M [different sources are all over the place on their estimates], its safe to presume their being in the US is not included in the 12M.
Answering some questions:
You are right, I did not express my "Word View." But did not two posters or one in two postings claim that my use of the words "Combat Zone" expressed my WV? It doesn't, and I admit use of those two words was a mistake. I thought this matter was settled.
2. I believe my station scheme would work and that I have shown how the objections can be overcome:
A 24/7/365 broad-service quality restaurant with take-out, home delivery, and sit-down can be a great success in any American city as shown by the proliferation of 24/7/365 Pizzarias in most cities.
The mechanics of integrating the broad take-out and home-delivery services with on-board Amtrak service are achievable and have been discussed in detail earlier without any specific objections to the details.
No Amtrak passenger traveling more than two hours should be deprived of the opportunity to purchase food of quality that he or she enjoys while not traveling.
Overemod: When I frequently rode LDTs, 1954 - 1996, trains were generally welcoming to Foreign Visitors. And I was able to meet many. Good food, reasonable on-time performance, courtesy, clean interiors. Even in most cases during the "Rainbow" era.
Now?
Even for a year after 1 May 1971, the Super Chief retained its standard of service and its name. So did the El Capitan. And the Broadway seemed to get better! And we still had the Southen Crescent and the Rio Grande Zephyr.
Are Jets and Highways really better today?
Pizza joints and "broad service" restaurants are very different species. You're living in a past, a time 50+ years ago. Nostalgia is nice, but not an essential service.
I am sure they exist, but I have never seen 24 hour pizza joints. My local Speedway gas stations have 24 hour food - roller pipe hot dogs - but even there the hot pizza slice thing closes about 10PM. Steak n Shake hardly counts as a real restaurant.
In Lansing, we have about 450,000 in the metro area,and as far as I can think, our 24 hour full service restaurants are a Dennys east of town, a classic Diner close to downtown, an ihop in the truckstop by the interstate west of town. None near the train depot.
To succed, a restaurant either has to be a destination on its owwn, or be where ther is a lot of traffic. We have many successful places near shopping areas and/or interstate exits. We also have some places that have housed restaurant after restaurant, and they all failed. Poor location. Not run down area, no crime, just poorly located. They tend to be off the beaten path, exactly where train stations almost always are located.
Lansing train depot is right off a corner of the MSU campus, a school of 45,000 students. At least most years. It is by the short road to the interstate ramp. Along that short road is one of those serial restaurant killer spots, even located next to a hotel. A Wendy's on that street folded. And others. Other than kids trying to leave town, few often drive over to that area. In busy areas, folks will shop and decide to dine at a nearby spot. In an out of the way area, like say Toledo Union Station, there is no other reason to be there. A restaurant there would have to be a big enough draw to get people to drive in from the suburbs. It won't.
Lansing was not on my list. New York, Chicago, New Orleans (although there one existing restaurant may be adapted, not far from NOUS, ditto Boston with SSta), Los Angles, Seattle, sure; others require some research.
Agreed that a local population base is necessary.
And the charge of living in the past was leveled at those that wisihed to build new light rail lines and even at the building of the Camden - Lindenwald extension to the Delaware River Port Authority's Bridge rapid transit line. The Operation Philadelphia that intoduced the Silverliners to supplement the aging MP54s and Bluebirds, with the wisecrack "Mr. Temnnyson's trolley cars." I've been through that already. "You are living in the past" is just another bit of name-calling.
Amtrak as a bunch of disconnected corridors is not going to make it because of the investment required, including the investment to put the NEC in a totally good state of repair, without Federal participation. And you won't get that without a National system. And that requires the LDTs. And running anything without decent food is a disgrace unless the journey is less than two hours.
And meanwhile, do ride the trains. When otherwise meeting your needs. But bring your own food. There is packaged food that requires only hot water to make a decent a tasty meal. And if you order tea or coffee or hot chocolate in the lounge car, the attendant usually will supply an extra glass of hot water. And aren't their ice-cream, cream-cheese, and bagels still good quality?
And Penn Station and Washington Union, and Chicago Union and LA Union are hardly off-the-beaten-path. Maybe even adapt an existing restaurant. Is the Cleveland Oak Room still in business?
Not to belabor it , Dave, but cities like New York, Chicago, Boston, basically your list, are pretty much destinations. Once you arrive there you won't likely want to stay on the train for food. The LD trains need food service while en route. If we ride from CHicago to Seattle, we won't dine in those cities on the train. other than perhaps St.Paul, where would your restaurants be located? On my Capitol, from Chicago to Washington, South Bend and CUmberland? Or the other way, MArtinsburg and South Bend?
Between CHicago and Los Angeles, you have Kansas City. I assume you want a major city for your places. That leaves Albuquerque which is twice the size of Lansing, Flagstaff at a third our size. I brought up Lansing originally, not because I figured we would have the train business, but as an example of the sorts of cities along the distance train routes. The cities that would have to support your restaurants. The cross country routes really don't pass through that many cities of substantial size, like those on your list.
The food on the California Zephyr is usually pretty good and as I said in a previous reply hasn't really changed.
I managed to dig up an article I wrote on the CA Zephyr for TrainReview - I'll include the link below - which has a lot of my images of food on thetrain!
https://trainreview.com/article/riding-the-california-zephyr-from-san-francisco-to-chicago
The Oak Room in Cleveland is now strictly catering. Chicago Union Station has McDonald's, Dunkin' Donuts and other fast food/snack operations. Penn Station in Manhattan has Moe's Southwest Grill and a Pret a Manger (sandwich shop). Washington Union Station has many fast foods and even a few restaurants, but none open much past 9 pm, none of your 24-hour pizza joints.
As I said, your scheme is unrealistic as a food source and smacks of someone out of touch with 2020 in the US.
Most hotels do ave 24-hour room food-and-beverage service.
I gather, then, that the Oak kitchen, an d only the kitchen continues to exist.
1. Do they provide catering on an anyhtime basis?
2. what is the former donig room ised for?
A New York reataurant supplyimg lomg distance trains could provide hot food for trains leaving 11:30 - 1:30 and 5PM - 7PM for those willing to go ditrctly yo the diner after placing their carry-ons near their coach seat or in their rooms, and refrigerated food for microwave for other departures and passengers with other mneal-time preferences. ETc.
Of the 562 million, how much was due to food and beverage service?
daveklepper Of the 562 million, how much was due to food and beverage service?
Thanks. I believe that loss specifically can be eliminated.
If not by my restaurant scheme, then by far better use of current technology, firms already providing similar services for airlines, etc.
Labor costs would be reduced drastically by the restaurant scheme, because cooks are cooking for a large public, not just railroad travelers, and are not being paid to travel or sleep away from home, just paid to cook. Economies of scale would reduce costs of washing and sanitizing dishes and cups and knives and forks asd spoons, One or two on-board employees would be able to handle most operations. Econmies of scale would make preparation of quality meals far more ecnomical than in commisaries devoted only to rail passengers.
I don't accuse those that wish to eliminate LDTs of anything. You are intelligent and logical. But to me LDTs remain an extremely important part of Noirth American Civilazation, and to me, a bit of the Nrth American soul would be destroyed with their removal.
JPS1No private food service entity could afford to pay the wage and compensation package that Amtrak pays its onboard F&B employees. Moreover, if Amtrak tried to outsource the service, which it did on a limited basis, the unions would get their Congressional buddies to block it.
I continue to think that much of the jiving with diner reductions, substitution of cold plates, etc. is intended in some way to 'eliminate' parts of F&B from operations "long enough" to get rid of the union contracts and obligations. Amtrak could then re-introduce food service of some kinds without the current difficulties ... or so would be the rationalization; we saw exactly how far that kind of rationalization would get them with the wheelchair-accommodation cost fiasco.
daveklepper Thanks. I believe that loss specifically can be eliminated. If not by my restaurant scheme, then by far better use of current technology, firms already providing similar services for airlines, etc.
Airlines and food service? What century are you referring to?
Does anyone know what Rockie Mountaineer pay their crew and food service staff?
Where is their crew base? Vancouver or Kamloops? I presume they pay for away from home lodging? The only serve breakfast and lunch but it is cooked om board (and is delicious).
charlie hebdoAirlines and food service? What century are you referring to?
Remember that he is talking about a range of products, and not necessarily full-tilt gourmet level meals on all trains. Consider how much of the airline 'experience' transfers over to rail, and what the service and clean-up implications for rail would be.
At least on US domestic flights, food service is non-existant in coach, sketchy in business and first class. International flights are different, but hardly gourmet or substantial.
I am surprised Amtrak, especially under Anderson, hasn't gone to the airlines standard - 'give' everyone a bag of pretzels and a half can of a soft drink.
charlie hebdo sketchy in business and first class.
sketchy in business and first class.
Sketchy? I take it you don't spend much time up there. I only fly first class, and have yet to have a bad meal.
An "expensive model collector"
Sketchy in the sense that it depends on the airline, destination and length of flight. Some excellent, some fair.
I will vouch that food service in first class on domestic flights on American Airlines is excellent. You have two or three entree choices and they can be pre-ordered up to thirty days before your flight.
United:
https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/travel/inflight/dining/inflight-dining-changes.htmlin min
American:
Hardly even modified regular meals, except to Hawaii or transcontinental flights.
https://thepointsguy.com/news/inflight-service-resuming/
charlie hebdo United: https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/travel/inflight/dining/inflight-dining-changes.htmlin min American: Hardly even modified regular meals, except to Hawaii or transcontinental flights. https://thepointsguy.com/news/inflight-service-resuming/
So you have to use a temporary modification during a pandemic to justify your incorrect statement? Got it, say no more.
I have not flown during the pandemic, however my last flight was in Feburary. All 4 legs were pretty short, JAX-DFW-LAS, and return. I was given a meal on each leg, and was able to choose by meal before the trip. They were all very good, not "sketchy" in the least.
I thought we were talking about the present. Good chance food service will never return to what you like for at least 6-12 more months, possibly never. And 80% or more of passengers are in coach/cabin class. There will be fewer businesses paying to fly managers around in the future, so business class may disappear.
Again, current situation, do ride the trains, wear masks unless well-isolated, and bring your own food.
And if I were riding coach and there wasn't anyone closer than ten feet, I'd ask permission of the conductor to remove my mask.
daveklepperAnd if I were riding coach and there wasn't anyone closer than ten feet, I'd ask permission of the conductor to remove my mask.
If you feel you have to cough or sneeze, raise and fit the mask.
If the conductor or another passenger engages in conversation, raise and fit.
If you want to talk on your telephone, raise and fit. And wipe the phone down with 80% alcohol immediately afterward, and wash your hands.
In other words, don't do the voodoo or feel-good, but do engage in the things that demonstrably decrease risk to yourself and others. Only when we have an atmosphere of trust that everyone 'does their part' can we open things further; on the other hand, it doesn't take more than one unmasked person having an argument into a phone to start a whole world of hurt.
If you Need The Mileage/Trackage you NEED the mileage/trackage. Go for it! because it might disappear for good--like the B&O Cumberland MD-Cincinnati which I did in September 1981 two weeks or so before that train came off; about half of that line is now abandoned and part made into hiking trails. Yes, it was in an Amcoach; can't remember if there was any sort of food service at all. I last ate in an AMTK diner on the Lake Shore in 2005 (breakfast & lunch); I bought a Subway sub and some CVS cranberry juice and seltzer for dinner out of Chicago--AMTK wanted $$$ for sleeper space so I went coach. I still haven't ridden AMTK west of Chicago and I have only a few miles in the US west of the Mississippi--commuter trackage Glendale-LA Union Station. I did across Canada in 1984 via CP. So Just Do It!!
What you & Amtrak forget to factor in is the connecting traffic from NEC and L/D trains. We take the Cap Ltd twice yrly from Chi to DC, then board a NEC train to get to Wilmington where our son meets us. Each trip we see a significant # of travelers boarding/exiting a NEC train after/before traveling via a L/D train. This also affects our usage of the 'builder as we take it from La Crosse to CUS to use the Cap. If the 'builder or Cap are dropped, we stop using Amtrak & will fly - period!
charlie hebdo I thought we were talking about the present.
I thought we were talking about the present.
Then why ask what century are we talking about? To use a temporary situation to try and prove a long term point on how Amtrak could handle food in the future is pointless. The airlines used a fantastic food service in the front of the aircraft less than 5 months ago and that could be adapted to Amtrak's service with ease.
charlie hebdo Good chance food service will never return to what you like for at least 6-12 more months, possibly never. And 80% or more of passengers are in coach/cabin class. There will be fewer businesses paying to fly managers around in the future, so business class may disappear.
Good chance food service will never return to what you like for at least 6-12 more months, possibly never. And 80% or more of passengers are in coach/cabin class. There will be fewer businesses paying to fly managers around in the future, so business class may disappear.
Doubtful that domestic first will be going anywhere. I would not be surprised to see the demand for air travel to increase by 2025, if the work from home trend continues. If one does not need to live in a commutable distance from their work, watch high tax, high cost of living places loose population to lower cost of living areas.
I was talking to someone yesterday who used to lived on Long Island and moved to Florida last year. She stated she is paying almost 20K less in taxes now than when she lived up north, with a slightly bigger house. That would buy a lot of airline tickets and hotel stays for the occasional face to face meeting. Places like New York and Illinois would lose out to places like Florida.
I haven’t taken a long distance train since the change in dinning car service has happened. However having heard from friends that have ridden they were all disappointed with the new meal service. However the meal service is only one aspect of taking a long distance train. I enjoy the views I can see from the train especially on the western trains. I would recommend packing some of your own favorite food that does not need to be heated or kept cold to suplement whatever Amtrak is offering. By the way I live in the northeast where we have very frequent regional service but I have ridden more long distance trains than the overpriced service offered here. So count me as one who says a national system with long distance trains or no Amtrak.
The dining car service is hardly "free." Roomettes are very expensive. In 2018, I flew First Class for less money (ca$830)Boston to Santa Fe NM than I paid for my 3'6" by 6'6" roomettes on the Southwest Chief and Lake Shore Limited spending 1 night on each train (ca$880) booked months in advance. In most major cities I could get a beautiful hotel room for two nights at that price. Sleeper class is approximately 3 times or more the price of coach class. Just like the airlines, the roomette prices soar the closer you get to the departure date. Dining cars have never ever "paid" for themselves but served as a draw for passenger traffic. Railroads used to compete on service. Today, just like air travel, it now seems to be a race to the bottom.
n012944: Since you choose to be obtuse and snarky, here you are:
You ride first class for all air travel. Ain't you special! But it is unlikely that the level of service you decided was worth paying through the nose for can be applied to a rail service where multiple meals are served to at least 100 people, probably more.
charlie hebdo n012944: Since you choose to be obtuse and snarky, here you are: You ride first class for all air travel. Ain't you special! But it is unlikely that the level of service you decided was worth paying through the nose for can be applied to a rail service where multiple meals are served to at least 100 people, probably more.
It is sad that you have to resort to name calling, I thought you were better than that.
I never said I was special, but thanks for thinking I am! Be wise with your investments and businesses, and you can afford to travel that way as well. You should also do some research before claiming that I paid "through the nose" for first class tickets. They really are not that expensive, and far cheaper that an Amtrak sleeper ticket.
However, there is no reason a train, which has far more storage space, along with the ability to replenish the food supply along its routes, cannot give airline style catering.
I would not fly first class on a domestic flight, unless it were to Hawaii. International, however, is worth it to me. I won't say anything more about your condescending remarks except to say I am quite aware of finding and using cheaper fares as long as it fits with my schedule. If I am really after fine dining, it's not on a flight.
As for modern trains and food service, there are plenty of examples abroad that are more applicable to our rail services.
charlie hebdo If I am really after fine dining, it's not on a flight.
If I am really after fine dining, it's not on a flight.
Nobody ever said anything about fine dining. Food does not have to fit into the fine dining catagory to be quality. Keep using extremes to try to stick to your guns...
charlie hebdo As for modern trains and food service, there are plenty of examples abroad that are more applicable to our rail services.
charlie hebdo I am quite aware of finding and using cheaper fares as long as it fits with my schedule
I'm using what you think of as extremes because David K's proposal is unrealistic. Yours? Meh.. I could specify why your idea of serving airline front cabin meals on a train with 100-150 passengers is unrealistic, but most other readers already know why that is so. [hint: time and labor]
charlie hebdo I could specify why your idea of serving airline front cabin meals on a train with 100-150 passengers is unrealistic, but most other readers already know why that is so. [hint: time and labor]
I could specify why your idea of serving airline front cabin meals on a train with 100-150 passengers is unrealistic, but most other readers already know why that is so. [hint: time and labor]
Oh, I thought we were talking about present. Why else would you quote the menu from a temporary pandemic airline menu? Since we are talking about the present, currently only sleeping car passengers are permitted in the diner. Please, which Amtrak trains currently have 150 passengers in sleepers? Even better, which trains had 150 passengers in the sleepers pre pandemic?
n012944 charlie hebdo I could specify why your idea of serving airline front cabin meals on a train with 100-150 passengers is unrealistic, but most other readers already know why that is so. [hint: time and labor] Oh, I thought we were talking about present. Why else would you quote the menu from a temporary pandemic airline menu? Since we are talking about the present, currently only sleeping car passengers are permitted in the diner. Please, which Amtrak trains currently have 150 passengers in sleepers? Even better, which trains had 150 passengers in the sleepers pre pandemic?
Your first class arrogance is showing along with problems of logic and reading comprehension.
Since when should/are dining car food services be only for sleeping car passengers?
BTW, several news/business publications or broadcast outlets have predicted the airlines are unlikely to return to pre-pandemic levels until 2024, maybe later. And independently others suggest the amount of business travel for meetings, conventions and calling on customers has forever decreased.
On the another post you suggested it's not rocket science to be the engineer on a train. I agree. But I have concluded from discussions with Joe and zug that it does seem to have some fairly unique cognitive and other ability challenges that are not about intelligence factors. Did you work in T&E?
charlie hebdo n012944 charlie hebdo I could specify why your idea of serving airline front cabin meals on a train with 100-150 passengers is unrealistic, but most other readers already know why that is so. [hint: time and labor] Oh, I thought we were talking about present. Why else would you quote the menu from a temporary pandemic airline menu? Since we are talking about the present, currently only sleeping car passengers are permitted in the diner. Please, which Amtrak trains currently have 150 passengers in sleepers? Even better, which trains had 150 passengers in the sleepers pre pandemic? Your first class arrogance is showing along with problems of logic and reading comprehension.
Resorting to name calling again. Sad, once again I always thought you were above that.
charlie hebdo Since when should/are dining car food services be only for sleeping car passengers?
My mistake, it is only for Amtrak's east coast trains.
https://www.wvgazettemail.com/life/travel/quality-service-ambience-go-off-the-tracks-with-amtraks-flexible-dining/article_5179c3c8-962b-5ced-bc38-f5903858b436.html
"As of Oct. 1, dining car service on those trains was replaced with what Amtrak is calling “flexible dining,” but only for sleeper car passengers.
For coach and business class passengers, who used to have the option of buying meals in the dining car, the car is now off-limits."
charlie hebdo BTW, several news/business publications or broadcast outlets have predicted the airlines are unlikely to return to pre-pandemic levels until 2024, maybe later. And indepently others suggest the amount of business travel for meetings, conventions and calling on customers has forever decreased.
BTW, several news/business publications or broadcast outlets have predicted the airlines are unlikely to return to pre-pandemic levels until 2024, maybe later. And indepently others suggest the amount of business travel for meetings, conventions and calling on customers has forever decreased.
I said 2025 in a post on this thread from earlier today. I guess I was wrong....
charlie hebdo On the another post you suggested it's not rocket science to be the engineer on a train. I agree. But I have concluded from discussions with Joe and zug that it does seem to have some fairly unique cognitive and other ability challenges that are not about intelligence factors. Did you work in T&E?
That question has nothing to do with dining on Amtrak. I have made my position at the railroad quite clear on this board.
Obviously the temporal context is getting in the way.
So if you are now discussing only the indefinite present, why propose an upgraded food service only for the sleeping car passengers? Because including food in the prices of their tickets is some necessary lure for maintaining patronage? What about in the future? How would you propose managing that level of food service for a much larger number of potential patrons? And BTW, at least some rail food services abroad use convection ovens and proper plating, same as airline first class.
charlie hebdo So if you are now discussing only the indefinite present,
So if you are now discussing only the indefinite present,
Is that not what you did by linking pandemic era menus for airlines first class service?
charlie hebdo why propose an upgraded food service only for the sleeping car passengers?
why propose an upgraded food service only for the sleeping car passengers?
Because that is the direction Amtrak is going.
charlie hebdo And BTW, at least some rail food services abroad use convection ovens and proper plating, same as airline first class.
And BTW, at least some rail food services abroad use convection ovens and proper plating, same as airline first class.
"I could specify why your idea of serving airline front cabin meals on a train with 100-150 passengers is unrealistic, but most other readers already know why that is so."
Electroliner 1935 Does anyone know what Rockie Mountaineer pay their crew and food service staff?
charlie hebdoBTW, at least some rail food services abroad use convection ovens and proper plating, same as airline first class.
The 'other side' of this, how the dirty dishes are handled in a time of SARS-CoV-2 (which remains infectious an extended time in lipid contamination), needs to be taken up in detail. Here airline best practice may be applicable, but keeping the dirty 'containerized encapsulated storage' out of "circulation" on a typical Amtrak consist as opposed to a widebody jet may require some cleverness.
That applies to my old idea (from the '70s) of using nonwoven tablecloths and napkins and heavy plastic utensils that can be washed a certain number of times if necessary or disposed of if inconvenient -- with proper plating the resulting 'silverware' can be most delightful to use (or quietly 'sequester' for later!) without having to obsess about shrink or sterilization expediency.
GERALD A EDGAR What you & Amtrak forget to factor in is the connecting traffic from NEC and L/D trains.
Mr. Numbers:
Obviously you just like to argue, as can be seen in your testy, rather pointless exchanges over time with several other members on other topics.
1. Decent qualty food should be available to coach as well as sleeping-car passengers. If the prices seem high to coach passengers, the lower-cost lounge-car food iis available . But the restaurant scheme should work to keep prices from being astronomical. And I am still convinced such a station restaurant in major cities would be successful.
2. Overmod's ideas regarding plates, cups, knives, forks, and spoons make abundant sense. And keeping dirty stuff isolated isn't rocket science and should be effective. A large dirty-clothing hamper with multiple plastic bags is one approach.
charlie hebdoObviously you just like to argue...
I guess it's true that no good deed goes unpunished...
I think Amtrak could drop the baggage car, the lounge car, and the dining car and still make it with the LD passenger train via innovation.
Baggage: On my last Texas Eagle trip it looks like Amtrak is going down this path as they converted one of the first floor rooms in the Sleeper to carry baggage. It was either the Family Room or the H room. I did not figure out which I was just so surprised to see a room of shelves for luggage as well as shocked at what a good idea it was. If they did this on each Sleeper and then expanded the red cap service to deliver the baggage to the Sleeper ahead of boarding for an extra fee.....walla, there is a service passengers would pay for in addition. Otherwise passengers could carry their own baggage to the train sleeper. Either way, Amtrak gets rid of paying for checked baggage as well as paying for staff and equipment to haul it..........move that all to the red caps and let them charge for it and maintain the equipment from the money they make. Think about Amtrak charging a fee for extra baggage as well like the airlines do. That former Family or H Bedroom would really be a money maker now.
Dining Car - OK with keeping this if the sleeping car passengers pay for hauling the car and staffing it. I don't see how that is possible with only 1-2 sleepers per LD train though. So outside of Auto Train unless you have like 5-6 sleepers per train the Dining Car should be dropped. The food sucks anyway. I would replace it with a Cafe Car that was 50% Cafe and 50% Coach so if the Cafe part was shut down or not used, the car still earns revenue. So the sleeping car passengers can have their meals warmed or cooked in the Cafe Car and carried to their rooms by the attendant just as easily as it can be done by the Dining Car. OR show up in the Cafe Car with a sleeping car voucher. Coach passengers should also be able to use the same car. However, the differentiation should be here in the meal quality. Sleeping car passengers get a full tray meal. Coach passengers only get snacks unless they pay a premium for the Sleeping Car tray meal. Makes sense to me one half car to serve food instead of a full dining car plus lounge. If the LD consist expands, OK then go to a full dining car. The LD consists are far too small at this point and the passengers carried too little per LD train to pay for a full length dining car.
Lounge Car - Again, I liked the private railroad concept where they combined the vista dome with paid for coach seats on the first level instead of a lounge car with no revenue seats at all (Amtrak Superliner Lounge). Smarter to do it this way and if Amtrak can innovate and figure this out again, I am OK with a coach lounge combo. Not OK with a lounge car that runs by itself and is only lounge. Again Amtraks fault dating from the 1970's in their attempt to make the passenger train largely one class and open to everyone. Not how I remember the private rails running things and no idea why Amtrak changed from their proven concept.
On top of the above they need to do far better with co-branding, marketing with travel packages and off train add-on trips or deals with local hotels to raise revenue from LD trains. The current model has proven to be a money loser and could use a lot of improvement..........and this does not have to be an "essential service" to be preserved. Rural airline service is not "essential" but Congress pays for it to preserve it. If you want to drop both fine but be consistent across all the modes of travel including bus routes, airline routes, etc.
All above is compatible with the station restaurant scheme and should produce costs savings, unless the use of the train, its capacity, and number of coaches and sleepers are all considerably greater than typical today.
I have read all of the comments, on topic and off topic and insults thrown back & forth, now it is my turn. First of all, Amtrak should keep LD service as it is used by many people. I rode last summer on CZ from Chi to Denver where we picked up rental car and return boarded at Glenwood Springs to Chi,and both trains were packed in coaches, I did not do a sleeper on this trip. But they still had the regular dining car and our friend got his signature steak on both trips, I got my salmon and other friend got her chicken. All delicious meals. Then I rode on Texas Eagle, same story and same diner, also on SW Chief to Ft. Madison, IA with a railfan group, same story full train and regular diner. We were to take the Cap Ltd, Pennsylvanian, and Cardinal a month ago but cancelled due to Covid. Would have all been new trains for all of us. and was looking forward to seeing what new menu would be like. I did ride Builder and Coast Starlight in '03 in a deluxe bedroom as I was traveling alone for total of 3 nights and wanted my own space and bathroom. My first LD trip on Amtrak and diner was comparable to what passenger railroads were serving pre-Amtrak. I rode many of them with parents on Dad's pass. Talking about liquor, Dad wanted a beer with lunch in some county in KS that was dry, but as soon as we crossed into wet county, he got his beer. I also rode with friend on SW Chief to Grand Canyon in '05 and delicious meals, we shared a sleeper bedroom. I have rode the City of New Orleans in '16 and '18 to visit a friend down there and the meals were microwaved and not the same as the real diner food. It was decent but not like I heard about years earlier with the regional cuisine. But it will make no matter to me, as I go for the train experience, the scenery, people I meet from all over, last trip on CONO I met a couple from Scotland in my sleeper and we ate meals together. But I do not want the LD trains to be taken off, as I want to take a trip and go farther than Chi or KC, I do get roomette on CONO, gives me privacy traveling alone. Dad always was the one who sat alone in case some goofball got on and sat with him. When 3 friends and I went to CA for my last trip on UP City of St. Louis, we took a Pullman bedroom because none of us wanted to sit alone. That was great and got to experience what that was like, even rode the all Pullman UP City of Los Angeles to Ogden where our car was switched over to City of St. L. We had fancy lounges, round nose ob on the rear and dome diner. So I will always ride Amtrak as long as they have trains running, grew up with it and never stopped loving it.
CMStPnP: Voila! I largely agree. I would like a bit more detail on food services, however. Would everyone pay enough to cover above the rail costs? That would be for sleeper, above the subsidized ticket for coach?
I prefer that meals not be included in the cost of a ticket, but be reasonably priced, as possible with the station restaurant scheme.
In addition to individually-priced meals, and Table d'Hotel service (each food and drink item priced separately), meal plans can also be offered for one price for all meals of a specific trip.
As far as my restaurant scheme being "unrealistic," the main argument seems to be that there are no full-service 24-hour restaurants in major metropolitan areas, so a new one won't be a success. My counter argument is that good hotel restaurants are exactly that, and no real concrete reason has been shown why a new one, serving the entire metropolitan area, could not be a success.
Charlie, in another matter where you won't consult primary sources, where you regard the translations I use as propaganda, and I regard your sources as combinations of lies and/or exageration, we have decided to disagree. So, I think we will have to agree to disagree on this matter as well.
In the US, the term for individually priced food and beverage items is a la carte.
Table d hote = price fixe = la menu = an entire meal, beverage, main course, beverage and maybe soup, appetizer and dessert.
I never stated there are no 24 hour restaurants. I stated there do not appear to be any at major rail stations. I doubt if many or any hotels do either.
Thank you for the correction to the USA use of the French term. I'd forgotten and appreciate the reminder, thank you.
And we will leave our disagreements alone and appreciate each other's other efforts to make food service (and passenger service in general) both better and more economical.
One good hotel at a railroad station is the Queen Elizabeth in Montreal. A 24 hour restaurant at Washington Union seems a natural fit, and Sunnyside Yard air rights could include a new good hotel. Great view of the city skyline, and a few minites from downtown via the "7." But doesn't Hudson Yards Development, adjacent to Penn Station, include a good hotel?
daveklepperThank you for the correction to the USA use of the French term. I'd forgotten and appreciate the reminder, thank you. And we will leave our disagreements alone and appreciate each other's other efforts to make food service (and passenger service in general) both better and more economical. One good hotel at a railroad station is the Queen Elizabeth in Montreal. A 24 hour restaurant at Washington Union seems a natural fit, and Sunnyside Yard air rights could include a new good hotel. Great view of the city skyline, and a few minites from downtown via the "7." But doesn't Hudson Yards Development, adjacent to Penn Station, include a good hotel?
The stations and locations you have mentioned are more end points of the lines, not inroute points. The dining function on long distance trains happens when the trains are inroute. Harpers Ferry, WV; Cumberland, MD; Sebring, FL; and hundreds of similar type locations that long distance trains traverse at normal meal hours don't lend themselves to the station restaurant concept - while they may serve the railroads needs, is there sufficient local business to actually keep them in business.
Tell you what:
You guys get Howard Johnson's to service the Amtrak dining cars (full menu, c.1965) with takeout, and I'll support the idea and happily eat in the cars.
Or get Fred Harvey.
Otherwise, don't bother on my behalf.
Prediction: If Mr. Biden wins and the Democrats re-take the Senate, watch for the eventual return of real dining cars as well as daily LD trains.
Memo to self: Dig out my 78's of "Happy Days Are Here Again" for use in early November.
https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video;_ylt=AwrEzezIriRfT0EANxVXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTB0N2Noc21lBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNwaXZz?p=happy+days+are+here+again&fr2=piv-web&fr=uh3_news_vert_gs#action=view&id=50&vid=ebab0b65847d1e2aa17978aba8e78871
Please refrain from issuing edicts about disagreements with you.
Due to the pandemic, the Fairmount Queen Elizabeth's restaurant (Rosaly's) is not open except to provide boxed meals from 6am-9:30pm. Years ago the hotel was owned by CN and had a nice restaurant, but I doubt if it was 24/7 even then.
Balt, I made iy clear already that meals not served soon after departure Fron a station restaurat station (and KC and Denver are examples of en-route points) would be refrigorated for storage and microwaved for sevice. still quality meals in my experience.
And I do believe that the Conavirus problem will be solved.
Of course, there's always the legal and health liability. How many restaurants would put their name on a meal that they don't either serve or deliver to the consumer? They don't know storage or sanitation conditions on the train or the final preparation.
BackshopBackshop wrote the following post 3 hours ago: Of course, there's always the legal and health liability. How many restaurants would put their name on a meal that they don't either serve or deliver to the consumer? They don't know storage or sanitation conditions on the train or the final preparation.
Perefectly put.
Plus, what a field day for lawyers.
daveklepper Balt, I made iy clear already that meals not served soon after departure Fron a station restaurat station (and KC and Denver are examples of en-route points) would be refrigorated for storage and microwaved for sevice. still quality meals in my experience. And I do believe that the Conavirus problem will be solved.
The various station restaurants in KC and Denver keep standard hours
None are open 24 hours, some closed on Mondays. Once again you show how unrealistic your concept is because it's not based on facts.
Microwaved food? How us that an improvement in quality? Several people have suggested using convection ovens.
And those station restaurants probsbly don't do much of a take-out and home delivery business either. But they could change or have some compeitioh that would feature both and provide the on-board meals as well.
I've had some microwave meals both in Israel and in the USA that were excellent, and am expecting to enjoy one this evening. But convection currents are better for some foods, and should be part of the on-board equipment.
I think most people recognize that the station restaurant food for LD trains is not a viable strategy for numerous reasons raised by several different posters.
daveklepperBut convection currents are better for some foods, and should be part of the on-board equipment.
In a normal oven you have a pool of heated air that can become cooled next to, say, a big chunk of frozen lasagna or something relatively wet out of which water evaporates. This naturally limits how much heat can be effectively transferred and the distribution of 'higher heat' in the oven cavity to accomplish the transfer.
A conventional convection oven for domestic use used to be just a little blower that circulated air through an oven with conventional bottom bake elements. A better and somewhat cheaper approach was to make the element similar to a hairdryer and put it with thermostatic control in the circulation duct: this gets rid of the need for fixed elements in the oven cavity and the space and cleaning issues those introduce and reduce much of the mandatory preheat 'wait' needed to heat food effectively. In a sense this is like a sous-vide bath with temperature control, but circulating temperature-controlled air instead of liquid.
One tremendous advantage over microwaves is distribution of the heating. Obviously an oven full of trays irradiated via a magnetron and 'stirrer' up above is going to have trouble with the upper levels absorb or shield radiation from the ones above. Combinations of waveguides and reflectors can address some of his, but they are intricate to design, somewhat insensitive when food of different absorbance pattern is used, expensive, and space-occupying. All this before we get into the problems microwaves have with perceived food quality...
The equivalent on a convection oven is just additional shaped flat ducts/nozzles and return vents with airflow in cfm on each 'deck' fast enough that heat drop cannot greatly decrease the circulated air temperature. One of the 40-gang ovens in a Superliner diner will happily heat that many 'containerized' meal-containing trays in parallel... or any smaller number down to one... in about the same time, with automatic implicit control over energy use as there is relatively little cavity loss over a cooking cycle.
Microwaves certainly have their place in onboard food service, even if issued with 'deposit' to individual passengers or provided with 'whole-body liners' for more public use once the pandemic has subsided. At least some of the 'catered' stuff loaded at periodic 'to-order meal providing points' will be much like the sandwiches and snacks provided in convenience stores or supermarkets -- kept cold, with reheat instructions, for a reasonable lifetime in hours/days and perhaps with a 'discount plan' to eliminate waste or loss from misorders and cooking errors and the like.
Be easy to set up preferential funding, say through the SBA via coordinated planning, to stimulate development and buildout of strategic 'catering' points. This of course would be unlikely so long as the existing commissary model and staffing requirements remain as they are. It would however aid in the necessary continuity planning needed for a true 24-hour, emergency-agile distributed supply infrastructure for many aspects of LD service.
Different methods are best for reheating different foods, but the keys to quality are mostly in the original preparation and storage modalities.
Some interesting possibilities present themselves if we consider the use of rapid cryogenic-tunnel freezing together with approprate storage and prep on the trains. This would increase the prospective delivery radius from facility to 'station', greatly remove problems with arrival uncertainty, allow for fairly rapid stockpiling for unforeseen larger quantities, and a number of other advantages. With care the equipment might also be used for IQF of local produce for use on the train or for conveyance to other commissary points for use on other routes.
Nothing more than the methodologies already used or proven by DB would be needed to design (and test) menus, and prep methods, suited to this, and to design recipes and instructions for 'distribute' small-business sources to follow. QC is a serious matter but relatively easy to track -- if set up right. There are follow-on and alternative potenial 'revenue streams' for local firms subsidized into the technology and its cryogen provision streams -- association for example with local hospitals using LN2 initially separated by molecular sieve for MRI.
Onboard storage would require a slightly modified design of freezer, probably with a combination of multiple reflective shields cooled mechanically and some use of aerogel and nanoinsulation, precooled with dry ice. Periodic top-loading of dry ice would tend to retain low temperature throughout as the resulting subcooled CO2 is denser than both air and any warming CO2 present. Some care to avoid frosting from ambient humidity in handling and storage would be advisable, for example transportation in sealed removable overwrap.
'Reconstitution' via prompt staged-temperature convection, perhaps augmented with some judicious short microwaving for deep preheat, should be easy using the type of oven already paid for in the Viewliner diners; even if some of a meal (e.g. the signature steak) is still prepared on board, necessary prep, and prep cleanup, should be vastly reduced both for a 'seating' model (prospectively this must be accelerated if something like social distancing limits any one seating to a smaller number) and for 'room service' delivery or individual pickup when requested.
I would also suggest that 'boutique' production of frozens might be one of the better things to 'subsidize' in the broader context of Government-stimulated 'reopening' a coherent economy from which much of the erstwhile restauranteur class has been scrubbed...
Charlie, do you really expect me to give up on the idea just because you think it is unworkable, when others provide ideas to make it workable. Should I say you sound like a broken record or like a tape loop?
Station restaurants can certainly provide quality and careful preparation and do it better and more econmically than either an Amtrak-only commisary, the kitchen of dining car, or even a commisary shared with airlines.
And the station restaurant doesn't need to be in the station, but it is better to be close-by enough so some meals can be enjoyed on departure without the freezing and heating routine.
Dave, with all due respect, you're the one sounding like a broken record. Nobody has supported your idea. If it was financially viable, someone would've tried it by now. The country has changed a lot in the last 25+ years.
The ideas presesented keep adding to the possibilities for the idea to survive. Een here in Jerusalem, I have come up with a plan, and hope to help run the experiment, in North America. But I won't discuss it, and the news will come from others.
Deleted duplicate
Station restaurants don't need to be in the station?
I think that statement shows the absurdity of your so-called plan. And now some grandiose experiment?
The airline commissary food served in front cabin is pretty high quality. That and lesser status meals could be bought from them. They have the experience and volume to do the job. Leave it at that.
The station restaurant concept spreads the cost of providing quality food over a wider group of people than most airline catering plus the opportunity for fresh food for serving right after departure.
I recognize that I have not gotten specific support on this thread for the idea, but there do appear some people posting with ideas who may still have an open mind.
In any case, Charley, cannot past experience teach me that almost any idea I come up with is certain to get opposition from you?
Arguing accomplishes nothing. Alternative good ideas Are Welcome.
davekleppercannot past experience teach me that almost any idea I come up with is certain to get opposition from you? Arguing accomplishes nothing. Alternative good ideas Are Welcome.
Nonsense. You rejected the airline commissary idea with false assumptions.
1. An airline commissary obviously has a very wide and deep group of people served. They provide special needs cuisines, such as low-sodium and kosher, which most restaurants do not.
2. The cost is obviously spread over far more people than any single restaurant could.
3. Fresh? Have you ever flown in front cabin? Or ridden a DB train and tried its Bord Restaurant in the 21st century?
I think another poster, Backshop, nailed it. You just keep repeating the same discredited idea over and over.
1. I'll be glad to stop repeating when you stop repeating.
2. The only real arguments I've seen here is that if a 24-hor full-service restaurant were profitable, there would be one or some already. Don't buy that argument.
3. My acoustical consulting career had succes in part because of sucess with ideas other "experts" claimed were impossible, and I did study Transpotation Planning, in addition, at MIT.
4. One restaurant cannot do what a good airline catering organization does, but system of a number of restaurants can do even better.
5. Regional dishes and fresh meals served on feparture are difficult for North American airline caterers.
As I think part of the idea is favorable, other parts need better detail design, and some clearly need input from actual restaurateurs with experience -- my advice is to stop hashing the idea around here, actually set it up with investors and perhaps a coalition of partners as hinted, and when it has succeeded or whatever, come back here and discuss the story as a fait accompli. (I have enough faith that I would volunteer to consult, but only if listened to.)
Overmod (I have enough faith that I would volunteer to consult, but only if listened to.)
I'll volunteer to consult, too, but only if I'm paid...a lot. Then I don't care what you do with my advice. (Sound like a real "consultant"?)
First piece of advice (and for free, too!): Get a Senator to put his name on your proposal. Otherwise, well...where's my check?
3. Your background in acoustics and MIT is irrelevant. Some of us at least have past experiences in retailing, a sandwich shop and generally in 21st century US and Europe.
4. A system of restaurants?
5. How would you know? There are some regional dishes in fact and freshness is good.
You plan to present this plan in secret? Great, but I'm not holding my breath.
1. At MIT, transportation plamming and part-time job as evening truck dispatcher for anEast Cambridgw ice-crea0 company.
2. Do you have the info on economics of DB or 1st-class airline meals?
2. If you had any sense of the realities, you would know NOBODY outside the airlines or food caterers would know the numbers on those food services. It's not public information.
DB meals range in prices for main course lunch or dinner from 9 to 15 Euros plus salad and beverage. Breakfast about 8 euros, including coffee.
And you have no way of knowing how subsidised the meals are.
Again, the fact that there is no full-service 24-houir resetaurant does not in any way prove one won't be successful. There are RR emloyees. heallth-care workers, police, all manner of people who work odd hours. Such a restaurant could well be a boon to them and serve quality meals at reasonable prices, show a profit and havi railroad on-board service as a side-line of the take-out and home delivery business.
Charlie, one thing my MIT engineering education taught is not to make unnecessary enemires in trying to accoumplish something. I am trying to help revive and preserve quality long-distance rail passenger service. And you have not proved to me that my idea won't work, just because it has not been tried.
So what do you wish to accomplish by repeating that it won't work? If you wish me to stop discussing it, then you stop first, and then I'll stop. Or do you have some other purpose, possibly finding an outlet for enmity to me persnally?
"Your background in acoustics and MIT is irrelevant." You have absolutely no basis for that statement.
I learned the ice-cream store, restuarant, home and business delivery service business quicly enough. And ceertainly did acoustical consulting and sound system work for restaurants, incluldling New York City's Four Seasons. I certainly had to know something about their business to give them the advice they needed.
Fine. Recognizing flaws is something you seem to have forgotten from your MIT days. So go ahead with your station restaurant idea. It's obviously important to you to have something to believe in.
My MIT education did provide a basis for recognizing flaws----
-----and to come up with alternative ways of correcting them.
Thank you.
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