This is at Memphis.
I also recall the Empire State Express, Harmon - Buffalo Niagra, but Buffalo - Detroit and Buffalo - Cleveland, both Hudsons. No fuel stops. By that time, many if not most Hudsons, except the Boston and Albany J2s, had "Centapeed" tenders.
And in the early diesel era, power ran through, Harmon - Chicago via both Cleveland - Toledo and Detroit, Boston - Chicago, Harrisburg - Chicago, even Harmon - St. Louis and Harrisburg - St. Louis.
Thanks, then the Pacemaker probably drew a Niagra before diesels took over.
I seem to recall once somewhere that refueling was done from both sides of the loco at the same time. Would that speed up refueling if each fill pipe connection went directly to fuel tank ? If fuel pipes were connected together before going to tank that would not help unless joined fills from each side into a manifold pipe twice the area of each side fill connection? Anyone know how the fuel tank plumbing is set up ? Can imagine it is different for different models and even different series of same model ?
The all-deluxe coach Pacemaker was running at least through 1956, diesel hauled.
My experience is that in steam the Broadway and Trail Blazer regularly changed engines at Crestline, and that the Century and Pacemaker either refuiled or changed engines, one or the other, at Colingwood. just east of Cleveland. So did the New England States. a heavyweigh in the steam era, with another engine change in Albany, for a lower-driver J2 B&A Hudson or a Mowkawk. Some of this is not first-hand, but what I was told.
The Broadway and Trailblazer both regularly drew either a T=1 or double-headed K4s. Not sure the Pacemaker lasted into the Niagra era, but double-heading was rare on the Central, either with Hudsons or Niagras. Extra sections were more frequent.
Convicted OneThat wouldn't be true in the configuration shown in Balt's picture, would it? It appears that set ups such as that would be gravity fed?
BaltACDWith the oversized tenders a full load of coal could go all the way - they did have to get additional water I believe.
All the way to what?
The largest NYC tenders built (~46t, I think) were only good for a little over halfway; there was still one coaling stop. That was trading off cistern capacity for coal bunkerage; a typical Harmon to Chicago train would scoop or take water 11 times. PRR's 'coast to coast' tenders did not have the luxury of lots of easily-filled pans, or the large bunkers on the PTs, so range was nowhere near as stellar as publicity might try to claim. (PRR didn't have NYC's high-speed scooping gear, either.)
Much of this of course was moot in the face of better water treatment and the desire to use nickel alloy steel in boilers -- neither of which is happily compatible with scooped or agitated water. Note how long the era of care water treatment lasted in the East...
As noted, there was one engine that could have made the trip unrefueled - the C1a duplex with 64t and lower nominal water rate (hence needing your born less fuel over the distance). PRR could have (and I think should have) gone to separable water cisterns or A-tanks on any of the larger classes, which would also help turning and jostling them... but they wisely avoided the whole rigmarole by going to EMD instead.
I remember on the Pennsy, they fueled & watered the diesels (steam generators) and the cars at Richmond IN on the St.Louis to NY trains. And they changed diesels at Pittsburg from a two or three unit set to a four unit for the trip to Harrisburg (which I assumed was for the grades in Pennsylvania) when I rode between Cincy and Phily. Does anyone know how much water a typical old coach or pullman could hold vs a superliner?
Quoting Balt--"...they did have to get additional water I believe." Yes, that is why they had track pans so the water tanks could be filled without stopping.
Johnny
BaltACD- they did have to get additional water I believe.
Track pans?
Convicted One longhorn1969 The Sunset Limited refuels at the fuel yard to the east of the San Antonio, its not a pax stop That is useful information, ....much appreciated! Just a little further elaboration on why I was curious specific to the Broadway and Century Trains. They were pitted against one another with time as a premium between NYC and Chicago, So I envisioned that they would want to avoid an additional stop just for fuel. I'd guess they would hope to optimize productivity similar to a "pit stop" in an auto race.
longhorn1969 The Sunset Limited refuels at the fuel yard to the east of the San Antonio, its not a pax stop
That is useful information, ....much appreciated!
Just a little further elaboration on why I was curious specific to the Broadway and Century Trains. They were pitted against one another with time as a premium between NYC and Chicago, So I envisioned that they would want to avoid an additional stop just for fuel.
I'd guess they would hope to optimize productivity similar to a "pit stop" in an auto race.
Remember - both the Century and the Broadway had engine changes from electric to non-electric in their schedules, both in the days of steam and diesel. In the days of steam (until the extra large tenders were implemented) steam engines would have to be both fueled and watered for safe and continued operations. With the oversized tenders a full load of coal could go all the way - they did have to get additional water I believe.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
OvermodIncidentally the nominal maximum fill rate for the system is 300gpm, so a bit over 7 minutes maximum for refill.
That wouldn't be true in the configuration shown in Balt's picture, would it? It appears that set ups such as that would be gravity fed?
timzWe assume the tank can be filled from either side, but no reason to divide the tank down the middle?
I really didn't know, that's why I was so generous with questionmarks in my post.
I always thought I was seeing two separate tanks, one on each side of the locomotive. but now thinking further with the valuable input of others here, I guess it makes perfect sense to fill in all the space between trucks with a fuel tank. I guess my earlier assumption envisioned a configuration more like what you see on a semi truck
longhorn1969The Sunset Limited refuels at the fuel yard to the east of the San Antonio, its not a pax stop
There is, and it's a fairly good one.
The P42 'tank' is divided both longitudinally and horizontally, into four separate compartments (each with four-level sight glasses). Equipment is provided to transfer-pump fuel from one to another -- in case compartments are punctured, the remaining fuel can be quickly transferred and the locomotive kept in service, something not true of designs with 'unitary' tankage; if one tank has contaminated fuel, it can be isolated.
There are LED gauges on the outside of the unit, but they read a weird approximation of what the 'actual' fuel level is: there are level sensors in 2 of the four compartments, and the number displayed is an average of those two levels, multiplied by 2.
Incidentally the nominal maximum fill rate for the system is 300gpm, so a bit over 7 minutes maximum for refill.
There is no drop frame or sill on these locomotives that would make pannier tanks desirable. Usually the whole space between trucks was a logical place to hang tankage; a couple of engines used a shorter fuel tank with water adjacent to it when SG equipped but you wouldn't put the tanks 'side by side' as consumption would throw off the lateral balance.
The situation was different in engines like Centipedes that had no space below the frame.
Convicted OneThere are fuel fillers on each side, the tanks are full width. But I'm not sure that is fuel. The hoses appear to be 11/2 inch fire hose and there are no pumps visible. I think it may be water. BaltACD ATSF E1's being fueled - back in the day! Outstanding picture, btw. There are fuel tanks on both sides of the locomotives? Correct? So then is there some type of internal equalizer allowing fuel to cross over from one side to the other?
But I'm not sure that is fuel. The hoses appear to be 11/2 inch fire hose and there are no pumps visible. I think it may be water.
BaltACD ATSF E1's being fueled - back in the day!
ATSF E1's being fueled - back in the day!
Outstanding picture, btw.
There are fuel tanks on both sides of the locomotives? Correct?
So then is there some type of internal equalizer allowing fuel to cross over from one side to the other?
Convicted One BaltACD ATSF E1's being fueled - back in the day! Outstanding picture, btw. There are fuel tanks on both sides of the locomotives? Correct? So then is there some type of internal equalizer allowing fuel to cross over from one side to the other?
Convicted OneThere are fuel tanks on both sides of the locomotives?
longhorn1969The Sunset Limited refuels at the fuel yard to the east of the San Antonio, its not a pax stop. Is there another Amtrak train that does the same?
Locomotives have one fuel tank with fills on either side. They each have a water tank for the steam generators with fills on either side. In the day, locomotives had to be watered more frequently than they were fueled, they would generally be watered at the same time they were being fueled.
Today's passenger locomotives no longer have steam generators and don't require water of heating/cooling purposes through the train. The use Head End Power (electrical) to power the heating/cooling through the train.
In the photo, look how many guys it's taking to fuel the engine compared to dealing with laundry on the other side of the engine.
What AT&SF station is that?
CSSHEGEWISCHMy experience with Amtrak fuel stops has been that they are accomplished within 10 to 15 minutes at a slightly extended scheduled stop.
The northbound City of New Orleans is routinely fueled ( by contractor using a 10-wheel tank truck). I will have to repeat observations to get the number of actual gallons per unit and the pumping rate (both of which I can get off the LED fuel gauges on the Genesis locomotives without involving the truck crew). When there are multiple units the single hose is transferred sequentially. I have observed no particular boarding restriction on passengers leaving the station adjacent to where the truck pulls up -- this might have been different in an era that permitted smoking in stations.
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