We should start a "stupid things we get to deal with thread" before the PTC enforces this thread.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
SD70Dude 243129 zugmann Conductor trainee or qualifiers are given a day or two to learn what I had weeks/months to learn. A burst air hose is a major delay. As you state new hires are given minimal training and 'put out there'. I asked a conductor, that hired after I retired so he didn't know I was a railroader, what happens if you have an air hose burst? His reply was "oh we just call somebody". This is why I chant "vetting training supervision". Do they not stock wrenches and spare hoses on your locomotives anymore? If you can't figure that out he would be lost trying to change a knuckle, or chain up a car with a broken drawbar (on CN we are still expected to do that ourselves). Granted, in passenger service you probably rarely have to do any of those things, but there will probably be a few occasions where you are in just the right spot to help out another train that is blocking you. I learned the way Zug did, and have also never been afraid of pulling wrenches at home, so I suppose I had a leg up over the fellow you describe.
243129 zugmann Conductor trainee or qualifiers are given a day or two to learn what I had weeks/months to learn. A burst air hose is a major delay. As you state new hires are given minimal training and 'put out there'. I asked a conductor, that hired after I retired so he didn't know I was a railroader, what happens if you have an air hose burst? His reply was "oh we just call somebody". This is why I chant "vetting training supervision".
zugmann Conductor trainee or qualifiers are given a day or two to learn what I had weeks/months to learn.
A burst air hose is a major delay. As you state new hires are given minimal training and 'put out there'. I asked a conductor, that hired after I retired so he didn't know I was a railroader, what happens if you have an air hose burst? His reply was "oh we just call somebody". This is why I chant "vetting training supervision".
Do they not stock wrenches and spare hoses on your locomotives anymore? If you can't figure that out he would be lost trying to change a knuckle, or chain up a car with a broken drawbar (on CN we are still expected to do that ourselves).
Granted, in passenger service you probably rarely have to do any of those things, but there will probably be a few occasions where you are in just the right spot to help out another train that is blocking you.
I learned the way Zug did, and have also never been afraid of pulling wrenches at home, so I suppose I had a leg up over the fellow you describe.
Dude, could you please explain what you mean by chain up a car with a broken drawbar?
Lithonia Operator Dude, could you please explain what you mean by chain up a car with a broken drawbar?
In a train separation sometimes the drawbar breaks or pulls out of the car's end frame. As it is more easily replaced the knuckle is deliberately designed to be the weakest point so that it will break first when subjected to excessive in-train forces, but that theory doesn't always work.
As a drawbar weighs at least several hundred pounds it cannot be replaced by the train crew. So a car with a broken or missing drawbar must be set out. If the broken drawbar is on the trailing end of the car this is a fairly simple move, but if it is on the leading end of the car we can no longer couple it to the leading portion of the train.
In this situation the Conductor gets to chain the defective car to the next one in front of it (each locomotive has a chain in the toolbox area, along with spare air hoses, a wrench or two, and a couple other simple tools), bleed off its air brake, and very gently move it to the next location where it can be set out.
Here's an example:
http://www.trainweb.org/southwestshorts/trx/kroger-drawbar-chain.html
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Thanks.
Seems like as the chain slack ran in and out, the defective car would take a beating from the good car.
And if the nearest set-out point is a stub track, a push move would be required. It seems like that could damage the car even more.
But I guess that would be the least of your worries at this point.
I've only had to do that a couple times. You have to stay with the defective car in case the chain breaks or becomes disconnected, so you can stop the car with the handbrake.
Applying the handbrake lightly will keep some tension on the chain at all times, and really helps to control the slack. Same idea as what Guards in the Brake Vans on unfitted trains (no air, vacuum or other continuous brakes of any kind) over in Britain would do.
The drawbar breaking or pulling out of the car's end frame will normally cause substantial damage. When the road repair crew shows up they will come in a 5-ton truck equipped with a crane and more parts and tools than you can imagine, including a welder (this isn't their first rodeo).
Sometimes they decide that the damage cannot be repaired out in the field, and the car must be moved to a shop. In this situation they will weld a bracket onto the car's end frame so that a EOT can be mounted there, and the car will be moved on the very tail end of a regular freight train. This usually takes excessive time, and it does not help that many crews will find any excuse to avoid adding a known defective car onto their train.
Once a drawbar has broken the crew's job is to get the defective car clear of the main track as quickly and safely as possible. If it gets banged up a bit more then oh well, it'll take a bit longer to fix.
I suppose we should move this over to the new 'stupid things railroaders deal with' thread.....
Lithonia OperatorThanks. Seems like as the chain slack ran in and out, the defective car would take a beating from the good car. And if the nearest set-out point is a stub track, a push move would be required. It seems like that could damage the car even more. But I guess that would be the least of your worries at this point.
When it becomes necessary to chain up a car - all the following moves are made at a speed that is near 'walking speed' until the car reaches its set out location and is actually set out. In most cases, when necessary to 'chain up' a car for movement, only the chained car is connected to the moving train - the balance of the train behind the chained car is left tied down at the location where the incident happened, that portion of the train will then be moved after the bad order has been set out.
The reality of the situation is that 'you do what you have to do' to open up the railroad, further damage to the bad ordered car is just the cost of doing business.
Pictured is a car that came apart.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Overmod In my non-running perception I think it at least plausible that Sahara thought her horn warning would be clearly heard, and this too would justify less initial application with trained railroad personnel involved.
She did testify that she was dismayed that they did not move out of the way as is usually the case when she blows the horn in similar circumstances. So she expected them to move out of the way when they heard the horn blowing. She may have never realized that the two were probably hearing her horn blowing, but also heard the horn of #66 at the same time. And because they were focused on #66, they heard both horns but attributed both to #66, not reaizing that they were hearing horns from two different trains.
Euclid Overmod In my non-running perception I think it at least plausible that Sahara thought her horn warning would be clearly heard, and this too would justify less initial application with trained railroad personnel involved. She did testify that she was dismayed that they did not move out of the way as is usually the case when she blows the horn in similar circumstances. So she expected them to move out of the way when they heard the horn blowing. She may have never realized that the two were probably hearing her horn blowing, but also heard the horn of #66 at the same time. And because they were focused on #66, they heard both horns but attributed both to #66, not reaizing that they were hearing horns from two different trains.
She could not deduce that those men had no escape and she by her non-action afforded them none. She, in her convoluted testimony, stated that she applied the brake to emergency AFTER she hit them. She should have been removed from service for revaluation.
Not railroad, however a full demonstration of failure of Vetting, Training, Supervision
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwsuV5aOy1Q
Take-home message starts at 12:48.
There needs to be critical evaluation, as part of training, how well candidates handle stress -- and fairly hard-nosed consequences regardless of politics when they do not. As he says, this can involve re-training or different ways of training, but if they cannot learn to be safe under fire, they have no business in cockpit or cab. He says "If they cannot do this, their career as a pilot is over, and that is so sad, but ..." [he points to the screen showing the last seconds of the aircraft's catastrophic descent]"... not as sad as this."
I remember repeated discussions of this point in the various 188 threads.
OvermodThere needs to be critical evaluation, as part of training, how well candidates handle stress
Who better to assess how well candidates handle stress than a panel of veteran engineers?
Overmodif they cannot learn to be safe under fire, they have no business in cockpit or cab.
There are folks today who have no business in the cab of Amtrak trains and this is a result of the unknowing vetting, supervising and teaching/training the unknowing.
Overmod Take-home message starts at 12:48. There needs to be critical evaluation, as part of training, how well candidates handle stress -- and fairly hard-nosed consequences regardless of politics when they do not. As he says, this can involve re-training or different ways of training, but if they cannot learn to be safe under fire, they have no business in cockpit or cab. He says "If they cannot do this, their career as a pilot is over, and that is so sad, but ..." [he points to the screen showing the last seconds of the aircraft's catastrophic descent]"... not as sad as this." I remember repeated discussions of this point in the various 188 threads.
Very true, OM and Joe. Along with input from skilled engineers, I'd like to see relevant input from a thorough psych evaluation as part of the vetting.
Since this thread has come back to life, this report just released by the Canadian Transportation Safety Board has some quite relevant comments.
John
https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/medias-media/communiques/rail/2020/r18h0039-20200722.html
Five such incidents but nothing much done. Does the TSB have authority to take serious action* against the railroad company when the problem is systemic?
* = large fines, shut down of some/all operations, etc.
Obviously no one who has commented has no idea about how hard it is to dismiss a union employee. This will probably get scathing rebukes from union members but been there done that.
ndbprrObviously no one who has commented has no idea about how hard it is to dismiss a union employee. This will probably get scathing rebukes from union members but been there done that.
Union members know those in their craft that are putting their craft at risk every time those members accept a call to duty. That being said it is not the union members duty to 'fink out' a fellow member - it is Management's duty through verifiable and repeatable standards to winnow the chaf out of the grain. For management to do it does take work - not just waving 'the fickle finger of fate' and wishing the person gone. Management is a job that requires continuing vetting, training and supervision of the employees they are responsible for.
It takes a factual record to discipline and/or dismiss a employee - just like it takes a factual record to try and convict a person of a crime. You can't 'phone in' the facts - you have to develop and document those facts.
charlie hebdo I'd like to see relevant input from a thorough psych evaluation as part of the vetting.
Can you recommend a "psych evaluation" program or a template of one?
BaltACD Not railroad, however a full demonstration of failure of Vetting, Training, Supervision https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwsuV5aOy1Q
I quit the video when the Trump campaign ad interrupted.
243129 charlie hebdo I'd like to see relevant input from a thorough psych evaluation as part of the vetting. Can you recommend a "psych evaluation" program or a template of one?
It would have to be developed but likely would include an MMPI-2RF or the MMPI-3, along with measures of sustained auditory and visual attention, and an interview.
BaltACD Management is a job that requires continuing vetting, training and supervision of the employees they are responsible for.
I'm glad to see that we all agree that vetting, training and supervision are factors to be examined. However, and I speak of Amtrak, a goodly number of managers are woefully unqualified as operations supervisors. The unknowing supervising the unknowing.
How do we get the unwilling to become managers?
243129 BaltACD Management is a job that requires continuing vetting, training and supervision of the employees they are responsible for. I'm glad to see that we all agree that vetting, training and supervision are factors to be examined. However, and I speak of Amtrak, a goodly number of managers are woefully unqualified as operations supervisors. The unknowing supervising the unknowing.
Those with 'strong opinions' of what is right and wrong who refuse to become a part of Management do a disservice to the organization of which they are a part. Becoming a part of management is walking the talk in action.
In the rail industry - virtually all craft employees have the opportunity to advance into Management at some level. Depending upon the competence they demonstrate in the ground level management positions they can advace to the top level management positions.
BaltACDIn the rail industry - virtually all craft employees have the opportunity to advance into Management at some level. Depending upon the competence they demonstrate in the ground level management positions they can advace to the top level management positions.
Sometimes. Other times they become the fallguy for someone else, or quit after living on nothing but monster drinks for 2 weeks straight. We always joke (kinda) and tell the new trainmasters to not bother unpacking. Revolving door.
It's a really horrible lifestyle anymore for the crap pay. The RR needs to join at least the 20th century, and maybe they'll attract more talent. It's a damned shame - I've seen some good managers that were let go (or quit) because they showed some competence, and not blind obedience.
zugmann How do we get the unwilling to become managers?
For starters, entertain their expertise.
243129For starters, entertain their expertise.
So let me ask you - why have you never tried management? Sincere question - not snark.
zugmann BaltACD In the rail industry - virtually all craft employees have the opportunity to advance into Management at some level. Depending upon the competence they demonstrate in the ground level management positions they can advace to the top level management positions. Sometimes. Other times they become the fallguy for someone else, or quit after living on nothing but monster drinks for 2 weeks straight. We always joke (kinda) and tell the new trainmasters to not bother unpacking. Revolving door. It's a really horrible lifestyle anymore for the crap pay. The RR needs to join at least the 20th century, and maybe they'll attract more talent. It's a damned shame - I've seen some good managers that were let go (or quit) because they showed some competence, and not blind obedience.
BaltACD In the rail industry - virtually all craft employees have the opportunity to advance into Management at some level. Depending upon the competence they demonstrate in the ground level management positions they can advace to the top level management positions.
I am fully aware of all the pitfalls of management - having spent 20 years in management in a wide variety of positions.
To be honest, in the 21st Century - 1st level management has basically morphed into one of being a Indentured Servant - and a near minimum wage job for the hours one is coerced into working when compared to the flat salary one is paid.
BaltACDTo be honest, in the 21st Century - 1st level management has basically morphed into one of being a Indentured Servant - and a near minimum wage job for the hours one is coerced into working when compared to the flat salary one is paid.
Then there's PSR....
Make sure you follow the plan without fail.
No, you don't get people or engines, or guidance from those above you.
But follow that plan without fail. Anything less is unacceptable.
zugmann 243129 For starters, entertain their expertise. So let me ask you - why have you never tried management? Sincere question - not snark.
243129 For starters, entertain their expertise.
The short answer is it did not pay enough. I could make a lot more on the extra list. The long answer I will give tomorrow. It is too late (for me) tonight.
So it seems that pay would need to be raised. That plus "regular hours" should be sufficient incentives to attract a few of those veteran and highly competent engineers to positions involving vetting and training, but not necessarily supervision of other engineers.
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