You guys were all high tech. We usually got: "signal system is suspended- let me know when you're ready to copy"
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
I don't know whether the signal suspension heighted the risk to the extent that it caught the crew off guard or not. It sort of seems like it did because in the middle the few-day episode, they had the horrendous crash that most certainly would have been prevented had the signals not been suspended. So it certainly looks like there was a connection to the heightened risk of the lack of signal protection. As I recall, the NTSB felt the risk was too high and so they got a change made that would require restricted speed when approaching mainline switches under a signal suspension. So they differed with the view that signal suspension was safe enough as long as everone knew the rules.
zugmannYou guys were all high tech. We usually got: "signal system is suspended- let me know when you're ready to copy"
At one time we had a regime of Officers that thought when you had serious signal trouble that would require 8 or more hours to resolve that the signals should be taken out of service and a alternate mean of operation rolled out 'on the fly'. At the time CSX was a Direct Traffic Control on dark territories that worked off of defined block limits. The Officers belief was that trains could operate at 49 MPH under DTC rules, as opposed to Restricted Speed when being 'talked' past a Absolute Stop Signal. What the Officers overlooked was that a absolute block needed to be maintained behind a train operating on DTC authority. A Restricted Speed trains could be authorized behind each other as a following train was 'required' to be able to stop within 1/2 the range of vision.
Not to mention the time it took to transimit Signal Suspension Train Messages to all trains that were already on the segments of track where signals were being taken out of service. All in all - a General Fiasco.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDWhat the Officers overlooked was that a absolute block needed to be maintained behind a train operating on DTC authority. A Restricted Speed trains could be authorized behind each other as a following train was 'required' to be able to stop within 1/2 the range of vision.
Not being familiar with Chessie rules - Can't O/S and roll up blocks behind them?
243129It' stops at poor vetting, poor training, poor supervision.
But you repeat yourself.
zugmann BaltACD What the Officers overlooked was that a absolute block needed to be maintained behind a train operating on DTC authority. A Restricted Speed trains could be authorized behind each other as a following train was 'required' to be able to stop within 1/2 the range of vision. Not being familiar with Chessie rules - Can't O/S and roll up blocks behind them?
BaltACD What the Officers overlooked was that a absolute block needed to be maintained behind a train operating on DTC authority. A Restricted Speed trains could be authorized behind each other as a following train was 'required' to be able to stop within 1/2 the range of vision.
Yes block can be released behind trains that knew when the rear of the train has cleared the block limits; however, with only Flashing Red Lights for EOT's at the time the head end had no 'knowledge' that the rear of the train had actually cleared a block. Giving and releasing multiple trains on a block by block basis creates a high level of work for all concerned - work that is subject to the delays caused by misunderstanding the Mandatory Directives that are being issued.
Electroliner 1935 243129 It' stops at poor vetting, poor training, poor supervision. But you repeat yourself.
243129 It' stops at poor vetting, poor training, poor supervision.
And I will continue to do so because they are major factors in Amtrak's spate of human error tragedies.
I, for one, won't object.
243129And I will continue to do so because they are major factors in Amtrak's spate of human error tragedies.
That's fine. It's like the forum's version of "Make America Great Again!"
zugmann 243129 And I will continue to do so because they are major factors in Amtrak's spate of human error tragedies. That's fine. It's like the forum's version of "Make America Great Again!"
243129 And I will continue to do so because they are major factors in Amtrak's spate of human error tragedies.
Do you dispute those reasons/observations?
243129 Electroliner 1935 243129 It' stops at poor vetting, poor training, poor supervision. But you repeat yourself. And I will continue to do so because they are major factors in Amtrak's spate of human error tragedies.
Not to be lost in the repetitive tone of Joe's mantra is the truth. The trouble with slogans is that when overused, they lose their impact.
charlie hebdo 243129 Electroliner 1935 243129 It' stops at poor vetting, poor training, poor supervision. But you repeat yourself. And I will continue to do so because they are major factors in Amtrak's spate of human error tragedies. Not to be lost in the repetitive tone of Joe's mantra is the truth. The trouble with slogans is that when overused, they lose their impact.
Perhaps so charlie but I see it as networking (?). This is not the only site on which I chant my mantra. However, I have been actively 'chanting' since 2007 to no avail but I do give myself points for tenacity. Perhaps someday someone somewhere will pay heed to my diatribe.
.
243129Perhaps someday someone somewhere will pay heed to my diatribe.
The problem I have with this is that I close my eyes and immediately see that scene from 'Roger and me' where the incompetent GM weasels snicker to each other and leave poor fat Michael standing in the dark with a dead microphone. Preaching to the converted is valuable, but if you need to bring the unrepentant (and, perhaps, those who in their own minds already know Better Big-Picture Answers) to see the errors of their ways and the relative truth of yours, more litanic repetition of what didn't work is unlikely to win the needed 'hearts and minds'.
OvermodThe problem I have with this is that I close my eyes and immediately see that scene from 'Roger and me' where the incompetent GM weasels snicker to each other and leave poor fat Michael standing in the dark with a dead microphone.
I've never seen 'Roger and me' so that comparison is lost on me
Overmod more litanic repetition of what didn't work is unlikely to win the needed 'hearts and minds'.
Are you suggesting I abandon publicizing what are arguably the major factors in Amtrak's recent spate of human error caused accidents? There are people out there operating trains who are grossly unqualified and present a danger to the traveling public. The prescription for disaster is present, hopefully, it will not come to fruition, but inattention to the problems created by poor vetting, poor training and poor supervision ensure that it will.
He's not suggesting that you abandon your message. I think he means that you need to sound less strident and self-righteous if you want to get through to the people that have a say in this matter.
CSSHEGEWISCH He's not suggesting that you abandon your message. I think he means that you need to sound less strident and self-righteous if you want to get through to the people that have a say in this matter.
"strident"? So I should effect an obsequious demeanor to get my point across? I am a former railroad engineer, not a faux jovial corporate backslapper. I have presented cold hard facts to support my position and will continue to do so. Perhaps I can catch the ear of the new president as his father and I were firemen together on the New Haven.
"self-righteous"? No, righteous, arising from an outraged sense of indifference to passenger safety.
243129Perhaps I can catch the ear of the new president as his father and I were firemen together on the New Haven.
Well there it is. Work that angle hard and go for it!
Flintlock76Well there it is. Work that angle hard and go for it!
May want to find out if he likes his dad first?
zugmann Flintlock76 Well there it is. Work that angle hard and go for it! May want to find out if he likes his dad first?
Flintlock76 Well there it is. Work that angle hard and go for it!
I dunno. It might depend on whether pops was properly vetted, trained and supervised.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding zugmann Flintlock76 Well there it is. Work that angle hard and go for it! May want to find out if he likes his dad first? I dunno. It might depend on whether pops was properly vetted, trained and supervised.
Training and Supervision can always be enhanced. How do you go about Vetting existing employees that have have full seniority, qualification, benefits and protections of their labor contract.
You can't help yourself can you? Go forth and multiply.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Go%20Forth%20and%20Multiply
Murphy SidingI dunno. It might depend on whether pops was properly vetted, trained and supervised.
You also, go forth and multiply.
BaltACD How do you go about Vetting existing employees that have have full seniority, qualification, benefits and protections of their labor contract.
If they do not measure up to the established standard for their position they should be entered into a remedial training course. If after remedial training they still have not 'measured up' they should be placed in a position suitable to their ability.
243129 BaltACD How do you go about Vetting existing employees that have have full seniority, qualification, benefits and protections of their labor contract. If they do not measure up to the established standard for their position they should be entered into a remedial training course. If after remedial training they still have not 'measured up' they should be placed in a position suitable to their ability.
What are 'your' standards for 'measuring up'? Measuring up cannot be a personality conflict - it has to be some measurable standard that will hold up in court - as anyone that doesn't 'measure up' will protest their dismissal and eventually it will end up in court.
BaltACDWhat are 'your' standards for 'measuring up'?
Minimum standards are to be established.
BaltACDMeasuring up cannot be a personality conflict -
Really?
243129 BaltACD Measuring up cannot be a personality conflict - Really?
BaltACD Measuring up cannot be a personality conflict -
Really!
Joe knows quite well what 'measurable standards' look like and has reasonable ways to get and keep them enforced. There may be 'better' or more politically-correct ways to the end, but the goal of better vetting, training, and supervision is the important thing to keep as the 'point of the exercise'.
It may be tempting to think that the attitudes, professional discipline and standards of the late-Fifties to early Sixties could be re-created in adequate numbers and with organizational 'championing' at Amtrak or by its supporters. It is not insensible for Joe to attempt as much of that as he can arrange, since he's familiar with what works and what does not in that model. It is also quite sensible not to try for a more modern or PC 'better' that never gets to honest best practice in the end, so I'm not prepared to criticize what sometimes appears as one-note-samba drumbeating already quietly ignored by several generations of Amtrak management or politicians. It certainly seems to me that a good case can be made for Joe appeal to 'the new guy' based on shared NH history... as long as it is NOT adversarial out of the gate, and Joe understands that Amtrak has wide and conflicting policies in crew recruiting, selection, training and retention that would never have factored into classical railroad best practice.
OvermodAmtrak has wide and conflicting policies in crew recruiting, selection, training and retention
Would you fly on an airline that adopted such policies?
BaltACD 243129 BaltACD How do you go about Vetting existing employees that have have full seniority, qualification, benefits and protections of their labor contract. If they do not measure up to the established standard for their position they should be entered into a remedial training course. If after remedial training they still have not 'measured up' they should be placed in a position suitable to their ability. What are 'your' standards for 'measuring up'? Measuring up cannot be a personality conflict - it has to be some measurable standard that will hold up in court - as anyone that doesn't 'measure up' will protest their dismissal and eventually it will end up in court.
Who said anything about personality? The standards would include knowledge of rules, measures of attention, etc.
Union stuff, like seniority and procedures, should not be allowed to protect substandard employees when safety is on the line.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.