243129Why? Because you had properly trained and vetted personnel unlike the Amtrak of today.
As in the musical. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ9U4Cbb4wg
Electroliner 1935 243129 Why? Because you had properly trained and vetted personnel unlike the Amtrak of today. As in the musical. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ9U4Cbb4wg
243129 Why? Because you had properly trained and vetted personnel unlike the Amtrak of today.
The business practices espoused would shut down today's world economy. Cash, no credit. The clip also showed various railroad clips that did not go together in any form of continuity. I guess Prof. Harold Hill is in charge of Amtrak engineers.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Overmod There is certainly capability in the PTC architecture to track and log the incidence of critical activations. As aI recall this is not regularly done, in no small part because it would be a wonderful opportunity for fishing expeditions by government or management to screw people for technical violations, usually involving inflated statutory penalties. I believe the only recording of activation is in the 'loops' in the EDRs, which automatically overwrite every couple of hours when there is no accident, and conveniently seem to be blank or corrupted in relevant ways when there isone.
There is certainly capability in the PTC architecture to track and log the incidence of critical activations. As aI recall this is not regularly done, in no small part because it would be a wonderful opportunity for fishing expeditions by government or management to screw people for technical violations, usually involving inflated statutory penalties. I believe the only recording of activation is in the 'loops' in the EDRs, which automatically overwrite every couple of hours when there is no accident, and conveniently seem to be blank or corrupted in relevant ways when there isone.
I don't know about Amtrak, but if our PTC makes an enforcement penalty it automatically sends notifications to management. I don't know if it goes through the PTC desk or directly to supervisory management. But it does get sent. PTC will blow the horn approaching crossings if the engineer doesn't or hasn't started when PTC thinks he should've. Each time it does so, that is transmitted, too. PTC allows a few mph over the current maximum speed before it makes a penalty application. Before it does it gives a warning that speed is approaching that point. I think that warning message is also transmitted.
Don't kid yourself. PTC tracks and tattles. For us, any enforcement encountered must be reported by the engineer when tying up. (We have a special computer feedback form for such things.) But I've only heard of a few where the PTC penalty was because the engineer didn't take action. Most are because of glitches in the PTC, or when inputs to PTC fail, such as when wayside signals go red in front of an approaching train.
Jeff
I could be mistaken. I don't believe any carriers PTC installation has yet moved beyond the 'Production Testing' phase of the installation to be certified as being Production.
In reading the trade rags, it is sounding as if METRA, NJ Transit, Tex Rail and the New Mexico Rail Runner are in danger of being judged as non-compliant
https://www.progressiverailroading.com/ptc/news/FRA-Four-railroads-at-risk-of-missing-PTC-deadline--60476
'Nice' slack action on the departure. That engineer must have been trained at Choo-Choo U. in Wilmington.
Milw_and_Miss I believe his Son was even in uniform on that day, forget which organization he belonged to at the time of his Father's death not sure if it was Nazi related or Army related.
Manfred Rommel was volunteer assistant flak gunner at a local battery and as such wore the uniform of a Luftwaffe auxiliary. If I remember right he was 15 years old at the time and too young for regular service.
And aboard!
Like everyone else, I don't what the real story is (and maybe there is no actual true story other than Bostian's), but the guy was not impaired. He somehow made a mistake he'll always have to live with.
I don't see any value in prosecuting this man now.
Lithonia OperatorI don't see any value in prosecuting this man now.
I agree with you. But don't you see? By prosecuting him it will give all the people who have never made a mistake the chance to feel better about themselves.
A discussion about the accident involving Pakistan Airlines Flight 8303 on May 22, 2020.
The discussion of operating procedures have applicability to both this incident as well as the Dupont, Washington overspeed incident.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fvfc6LLj_ww
Vetting, Training, Supervision
BaltACDVetting, Training, Supervision
.
243129 BaltACD Vetting, Training, Supervision
BaltACD Vetting, Training, Supervision
Landing without the landing gear deployed.
BaltACD 243129 BaltACD Vetting, Training, Supervision Landing without the landing gear deployed.
Vetting,training, supervision.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding BaltACD 243129 BaltACD Vetting, Training, Supervision Landing without the landing gear deployed. I saw that on another sight. I understood that the plane lost power and was dropping like a rock. No time and no power to drop the landing gear.
I saw that on another sight. I understood that the plane lost power and was dropping like a rock. No time and no power to drop the landing gear.
Plane's 1st attempt at landing - gear not down. Engines contacted runway about 4500 feet down a 11000 foot runway, engines contacted runway again about 7500 feet down the runway. Note - bottom area of engines contain the necessary fuel, electrical and hydraulic pumps and generators. After 2nd runway strike the plane climbed to 2K feet and were able to get the landing gear lowered but could not complete the turn to return to the airport to land as both engines had lost power. Crashed in a residential area.
Five years after the accident....We used to have the Sixth Amendment in this country. "The 6th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution guarantees all persons accused of a crime the right to a speedy trial"
BEAUSABRE Five years after the accident....We used to have the Sixth Amendment in this country. "The 6th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution guarantees all persons accused of a crime the right to a speedy trial"
So lets have a system where charges are brought for political purposes prior to an election and dropped after the election since there was no more evidence to support the charges the third time through than there were the first time the charges were dropped. Keep it up and you can ruin a persons life everytime an election is in the offing. The real system of American Justice. [/sarcasm]
CSSHEGEWISCH BEAUSABRE Five years after the accident....We used to have the Sixth Amendment in this country. "The 6th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution guarantees all persons accused of a crime the right to a speedy trial" That means a speedy trial after charges have been brought.
You raised an important though subtle distinction. Perhaps it is a needed point on here to explain why we have statutes of limitation of various lengths.
charlie hebdoPerhaps it is a needed point on here to explain why we have statutes of limitation of various lengths.
And to note how carefully the legal 'establishment' takes note of these and acts technically within them (sometimes to 'stretch things out' as in Bostian's case).
I notice that the formal issues around 'double jeopardy' have not been brought up here yet. Here too, very careful things are engineered in to retain the ability to repeat-prosecute upon perceived 'need' (which unfortunately includes political benefit, etc.)
A moral here: be sure you have good legal representation, because your prosecution will be the best taxpayer money can buy, and may be unrestrained by considerations of individual decency.
From the link in the original post:
“Given his extensive training and experience and despite having 250 passengers aboard, (Bostian) consciously disregarded a substantial and unjustifiable risk of derailment,” Stabile wrote. “He was going twice over the speed limit… Moreover, the evidence indicates that, based on his training and experience, (Bostian) was aware of the risk inherent in navigating the Frankford Curve.”
Why would anyone believe that Bostian "consciously disregarded a substantial and unjustifiable risk of derailment,” as the judge claims?
EuclidWhy would anyone believe that Bostian "consciously disregarded a substantial and unjustifiable risk of derailment,” as the judge claims?
There is no doubt whatsoever at present that the train was wrecked 'under his supervision' and that it was his hand in the throttle that accelerated the train in the wrong place. The state argues (and on this point I tend to agree with them) that no adequate explanation of this was ever provided, and (on this point I concur less) that an adversarial, criminal trial is the way to obtain such an adequate explanation.
I expect to see a great deal of 'Philadelphia lawyering' in both sides addressing precisely the point you raise: what is 'consciousness' (or 'conscientiousness') in the framework of the things influencing Bostian's thinking that night. We may even see the point raised that 'we'll never really know' because of the assertation of post-traumatic retrograde amnesia, followed perhaps by Roger Robb-style browbeating of Bostian (who I suspect would be susceptible to bullying tactics) to try to get him to slip up somewhere and 'admit he remembers'. Other likely lines of argument suggest themselves. One of the reasons we need 'tort reform' so badly is precisely that we give lawyers the ability to manipulate 'search for justice' in so many potentially-expedient ways... and reward the wrong kinds of 'success'.
OvermodOne of the reasons we need 'tort reform' so badly is precisely that we give lawyers the ability to manipulate 'search for justice' in so many potentially-expedient ways... and reward the wrong kinds of 'success'.
Hence the overly-ambitious prosecutors who want to add a high-profile "scalp" to their belts so they can move on to bigger and better things.
Chuh-jing, Chuh-jing. Who pays for Bostians defense? I doubt that he has any significant assets.
Does the union, or Amtrak provide his defence? I don't envy him as I see him as a man who was doing what he enjoyed, in a manor that he was trained and got distracted by the stoneing of the other train, and forgot where he was in a fatal way. That this was criminal to me is a terrible misapplication of the law in my opinion.
From the story: ...That included a Philadelphia police officer’s account of finding dismembered body parts at the scene of the crash. A passenger testified that he sensed the train was going “way too fast” just before the crash. Another investigator said Bostian told him he didn’t remember how the crash occurred.
The discussion of "BODY PARTS" is inflammatory and gory. And if you accept as the Judge states …based on his training and experience, (Bostian) was aware of the risk inherent in navigating the Frankford Curve… what motive would he have to consciously do this.
A trial may put closure on responsibility for a fatal train crash that the NTSB has ignored. Bostian was an experienced operator who for unexplained reasons took his train at twice the safe speed around a curve. No mechanical failure. Trials can uncover truths.
Denigating our court system is a favorite sport here. To those who do so, would you prefer a show trial system of jurisprudence, ala Roland Freisler or as in the Stalin era?
charlie hebdoDenigating our court system is a favorite sport here. To those who do so, would you prefer a show trial system of jurisprudence, ala Roland Freisler or as in the Stalin era?
Ever since the charges were first dismissed - this 'case' has been nothing more than a political grandstanding maneuver for the individual reinstating the charges; this is not about justice it is all about political theater.
Electroliner 1935 charlie hebdo Denigating our court system is a favorite sport here. To those who do so, would you prefer a show trial system of jurisprudence, ala Roland Freisler or as in the Stalin era? No, but, (this raises hackles) for a case of this nature where there is very emotional issues involved, I have concerns over whether the jury can be influenced to "ignore" the pain and suffering of the victims and determine if the engineer could have consciously CHOSEN to overspeed into the curve. If the prosecution trots out all the “body parts” and blood and gore and paints him as a monster, which I am afraid they will do, it can be hard to keep the jury focused on whether there was INTENTION to ignore the curve and its speed restriction. The defense may have a hard time. I watch too much TV and would see this as a case for the show, BULL.
charlie hebdo Denigating our court system is a favorite sport here. To those who do so, would you prefer a show trial system of jurisprudence, ala Roland Freisler or as in the Stalin era?
I understand your concerns but as far as I know, and I may be wrong, he is not being charged with deliberately choosing to derail his train and kill passengers.
charlie hebdoDenigating our court system is a favorite sport here.
Be careful there Charlie, no-one's denigrating the court system here. I'm sure most will agree with me there are thousands of district attorneys and prosecuting attorneys laboring long hours unsung and unknown in a never-ending struggle to keep us safe from the predators out there, and we're grateful for them.
What I, and again I'd say most us, denigrate are the ambitious ones who let their ambitions get the better of the sense of justice they're supposed to have. They're out there, in fact the Supreme Court just threw out the convictions in the Federal "Bridgegate" case due to prosecutorial overreach.
And let me tell you, most of their colleagues have no use for them either, just as no-one hates a bad cop more than a good cop.
There's seeing justice done, and there's scalp hunting.
And as Balt said, the original charges were dismissed. That should have been the end of it, whether we agree with that finding or not.
charlie hebdo Electroliner 1935 charlie hebdo Denigating our court system is a favorite sport here. To those who do so, would you prefer a show trial system of jurisprudence, ala Roland Freisler or as in the Stalin era? No, but, (this raises hackles) for a case of this nature where there is very emotional issues involved, I have concerns over whether the jury can be influenced to "ignore" the pain and suffering of the victims and determine if the engineer could have consciously CHOSEN to overspeed into the curve. If the prosecution trots out all the “body parts” and blood and gore and paints him as a monster, which I am afraid they will do, it can be hard to keep the jury focused on whether there was INTENTION to ignore the curve and its speed restriction. The defense may have a hard time. I watch too much TV and would see this as a case for the show, BULL. I understand your concerns but as far as I know, and I may be wrong, he is not being charged with deliberately choosing to derail his train and kill passengers.
I believe that is one possible conclusion for the trial. It is the only conclusion I can think of that would support the allegation that he consciously knew he was entering the curve at a possible roll-over speed.
charlie hebdoBostian was an experienced operator who for unexplained reasons took his train at twice the safe speed around a curve.
Obviously not experienced enough to be distracted so easily.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.