A trial may put closure on responsibility for a fatal train crash that the NTSB has ignored. Bostian was an experienced operator who for unexplained reasons took his train at twice the safe speed around a curve. No mechanical failure. Trials can uncover truths.
Denigating our court system is a favorite sport here. To those who do so, would you prefer a show trial system of jurisprudence, ala Roland Freisler or as in the Stalin era?
Chuh-jing, Chuh-jing. Who pays for Bostians defense? I doubt that he has any significant assets.
Does the union, or Amtrak provide his defence? I don't envy him as I see him as a man who was doing what he enjoyed, in a manor that he was trained and got distracted by the stoneing of the other train, and forgot where he was in a fatal way. That this was criminal to me is a terrible misapplication of the law in my opinion.
From the story: ...That included a Philadelphia police officer’s account of finding dismembered body parts at the scene of the crash. A passenger testified that he sensed the train was going “way too fast” just before the crash. Another investigator said Bostian told him he didn’t remember how the crash occurred.
“Given his extensive training and experience and despite having 250 passengers aboard, (Bostian) consciously disregarded a substantial and unjustifiable risk of derailment,” Stabile wrote. “He was going twice over the speed limit… Moreover, the evidence indicates that, based on his training and experience, (Bostian) was aware of the risk inherent in navigating the Frankford Curve.”
The discussion of "BODY PARTS" is inflammatory and gory. And if you accept as the Judge states …based on his training and experience, (Bostian) was aware of the risk inherent in navigating the Frankford Curve… what motive would he have to consciously do this.
OvermodOne of the reasons we need 'tort reform' so badly is precisely that we give lawyers the ability to manipulate 'search for justice' in so many potentially-expedient ways... and reward the wrong kinds of 'success'.
Hence the overly-ambitious prosecutors who want to add a high-profile "scalp" to their belts so they can move on to bigger and better things.
EuclidWhy would anyone believe that Bostian "consciously disregarded a substantial and unjustifiable risk of derailment,” as the judge claims?
There is no doubt whatsoever at present that the train was wrecked 'under his supervision' and that it was his hand in the throttle that accelerated the train in the wrong place. The state argues (and on this point I tend to agree with them) that no adequate explanation of this was ever provided, and (on this point I concur less) that an adversarial, criminal trial is the way to obtain such an adequate explanation.
I expect to see a great deal of 'Philadelphia lawyering' in both sides addressing precisely the point you raise: what is 'consciousness' (or 'conscientiousness') in the framework of the things influencing Bostian's thinking that night. We may even see the point raised that 'we'll never really know' because of the assertation of post-traumatic retrograde amnesia, followed perhaps by Roger Robb-style browbeating of Bostian (who I suspect would be susceptible to bullying tactics) to try to get him to slip up somewhere and 'admit he remembers'. Other likely lines of argument suggest themselves. One of the reasons we need 'tort reform' so badly is precisely that we give lawyers the ability to manipulate 'search for justice' in so many potentially-expedient ways... and reward the wrong kinds of 'success'.
From the link in the original post:
Why would anyone believe that Bostian "consciously disregarded a substantial and unjustifiable risk of derailment,” as the judge claims?
charlie hebdoPerhaps it is a needed point on here to explain why we have statutes of limitation of various lengths.
And to note how carefully the legal 'establishment' takes note of these and acts technically within them (sometimes to 'stretch things out' as in Bostian's case).
I notice that the formal issues around 'double jeopardy' have not been brought up here yet. Here too, very careful things are engineered in to retain the ability to repeat-prosecute upon perceived 'need' (which unfortunately includes political benefit, etc.)
A moral here: be sure you have good legal representation, because your prosecution will be the best taxpayer money can buy, and may be unrestrained by considerations of individual decency.
CSSHEGEWISCH BEAUSABRE Five years after the accident....We used to have the Sixth Amendment in this country. "The 6th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution guarantees all persons accused of a crime the right to a speedy trial" That means a speedy trial after charges have been brought.
BEAUSABRE Five years after the accident....We used to have the Sixth Amendment in this country. "The 6th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution guarantees all persons accused of a crime the right to a speedy trial"
Five years after the accident....We used to have the Sixth Amendment in this country. "The 6th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution guarantees all persons accused of a crime the right to a speedy trial"
You raised an important though subtle distinction. Perhaps it is a needed point on here to explain why we have statutes of limitation of various lengths.
So lets have a system where charges are brought for political purposes prior to an election and dropped after the election since there was no more evidence to support the charges the third time through than there were the first time the charges were dropped. Keep it up and you can ruin a persons life everytime an election is in the offing. The real system of American Justice. [/sarcasm]
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Murphy Siding BaltACD 243129 BaltACD Vetting, Training, Supervision Landing without the landing gear deployed. I saw that on another sight. I understood that the plane lost power and was dropping like a rock. No time and no power to drop the landing gear.
BaltACD 243129 BaltACD Vetting, Training, Supervision Landing without the landing gear deployed.
243129 BaltACD Vetting, Training, Supervision
BaltACD Vetting, Training, Supervision
Landing without the landing gear deployed.
I saw that on another sight. I understood that the plane lost power and was dropping like a rock. No time and no power to drop the landing gear.
Plane's 1st attempt at landing - gear not down. Engines contacted runway about 4500 feet down a 11000 foot runway, engines contacted runway again about 7500 feet down the runway. Note - bottom area of engines contain the necessary fuel, electrical and hydraulic pumps and generators. After 2nd runway strike the plane climbed to 2K feet and were able to get the landing gear lowered but could not complete the turn to return to the airport to land as both engines had lost power. Crashed in a residential area.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Vetting,training, supervision.
BaltACDVetting, Training, Supervision
.
A discussion about the accident involving Pakistan Airlines Flight 8303 on May 22, 2020.
The discussion of operating procedures have applicability to both this incident as well as the Dupont, Washington overspeed incident.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fvfc6LLj_ww
Vetting, Training, Supervision
Lithonia OperatorI don't see any value in prosecuting this man now.
I agree with you. But don't you see? By prosecuting him it will give all the people who have never made a mistake the chance to feel better about themselves.
Like everyone else, I don't what the real story is (and maybe there is no actual true story other than Bostian's), but the guy was not impaired. He somehow made a mistake he'll always have to live with.
I don't see any value in prosecuting this man now.
Milw_and_Miss I believe his Son was even in uniform on that day, forget which organization he belonged to at the time of his Father's death not sure if it was Nazi related or Army related.
Manfred Rommel was volunteer assistant flak gunner at a local battery and as such wore the uniform of a Luftwaffe auxiliary. If I remember right he was 15 years old at the time and too young for regular service.
And aboard!
Electroliner 1935 243129 Why? Because you had properly trained and vetted personnel unlike the Amtrak of today. As in the musical. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ9U4Cbb4wg
243129 Why? Because you had properly trained and vetted personnel unlike the Amtrak of today.
As in the musical. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ9U4Cbb4wg
'Nice' slack action on the departure. That engineer must have been trained at Choo-Choo U. in Wilmington.
I could be mistaken. I don't believe any carriers PTC installation has yet moved beyond the 'Production Testing' phase of the installation to be certified as being Production.
In reading the trade rags, it is sounding as if METRA, NJ Transit, Tex Rail and the New Mexico Rail Runner are in danger of being judged as non-compliant
https://www.progressiverailroading.com/ptc/news/FRA-Four-railroads-at-risk-of-missing-PTC-deadline--60476
Overmod There is certainly capability in the PTC architecture to track and log the incidence of critical activations. As aI recall this is not regularly done, in no small part because it would be a wonderful opportunity for fishing expeditions by government or management to screw people for technical violations, usually involving inflated statutory penalties. I believe the only recording of activation is in the 'loops' in the EDRs, which automatically overwrite every couple of hours when there is no accident, and conveniently seem to be blank or corrupted in relevant ways when there isone.
There is certainly capability in the PTC architecture to track and log the incidence of critical activations. As aI recall this is not regularly done, in no small part because it would be a wonderful opportunity for fishing expeditions by government or management to screw people for technical violations, usually involving inflated statutory penalties. I believe the only recording of activation is in the 'loops' in the EDRs, which automatically overwrite every couple of hours when there is no accident, and conveniently seem to be blank or corrupted in relevant ways when there isone.
I don't know about Amtrak, but if our PTC makes an enforcement penalty it automatically sends notifications to management. I don't know if it goes through the PTC desk or directly to supervisory management. But it does get sent. PTC will blow the horn approaching crossings if the engineer doesn't or hasn't started when PTC thinks he should've. Each time it does so, that is transmitted, too. PTC allows a few mph over the current maximum speed before it makes a penalty application. Before it does it gives a warning that speed is approaching that point. I think that warning message is also transmitted.
Don't kid yourself. PTC tracks and tattles. For us, any enforcement encountered must be reported by the engineer when tying up. (We have a special computer feedback form for such things.) But I've only heard of a few where the PTC penalty was because the engineer didn't take action. Most are because of glitches in the PTC, or when inputs to PTC fail, such as when wayside signals go red in front of an approaching train.
Jeff
The business practices espoused would shut down today's world economy. Cash, no credit. The clip also showed various railroad clips that did not go together in any form of continuity. I guess Prof. Harold Hill is in charge of Amtrak engineers.
243129Why? Because you had properly trained and vetted personnel unlike the Amtrak of today.
Lithonia OperatorAre there wayside speed limit signs along the Northeast Corridor?
All these things were exhaustively, and at times exhaustingly, discussed in the previous threads on the subject, some of which may be revived or linked when the new trial activity commences.
There are arguments about whether warning signs 'should' be posted when knowing the territory is a necessity for qualification. There are further arguments about whether providing warning signs actually causes more legal trouble and potential liability than not. In this particular case it was notable that there were, in fact, warning signs on this known-dangerous curve ... just not in the direction from 40mph restriction in the direction of a 50mph restriction. This was much the same reason why ATS functionality in that direction was supposedly disabled.
If so, how far before this 50 mph curve would the sign be posted?
In this case, far enough to notify the engineer to set up his train. Remember again that he's coming out of a more severe permanent speed restriction, and that this is one of the absolute last places on the railroad that anyone would run a powerful motor up to full acceleration; there is comparatively little need for a sign in this location to provide 'early warning' to brake a train down from higher speed to reach safe limits.
And does this area now have PTC? Does all of the NEC?
As I recall, one of the things that was completed on a 'hurry-up' basis was application of train-control coverage in both directions on the curve; I have no reason to believe that mandated PTC coverage isn't effectively active on the NEC now.
charlie hebdoYou don't know why this accident happened and neither do any of the rest of us.
The point is not whether I "know" why this happened, it's that details about how it happened don't jibe with the official pravda that was put forward, by the NTSB and others, at the time.
In that respect, I sympathize with legal people and State officials who want to establish truth through a supposedly fair legal proceeding against him.
Unfortunately, in our current system, we can't have a trial just on 'finding of facts'; it has to be adversarial, prosecutorial, and involve criminal penalties some of which can be imposed almost whimsically by judges -- either to forgive or 'punish'. Separating "getting at the truth" from various kinds of political grandstanding is difficult at best even with fair-minded people, and as with Nifong I don't think some of those people are fair-minded.
As I have said, as far as I know and recall from the NTSB reports, some aspects of this guy's pre-accident cognitive status were not investigated thoroughly.
charlie hebdoComparing this possible trial with the impeachment process is irrelevant.
I don't see any possibly applicability of 'crime of necessity' even if it was intended sarcastically; frankly, the confused-mistake hypothesis made, and still makes, the best sense as an explanation. Hopefully it's the holes in the 'official' account, and not some secret-agenda attempt to get around the Amtrak liability cap, that represents the thing driving the current persecution attempt.
Personally, I think there ought to be a trial, and right from the get-go Bostian's counsel should make as much publicity as possible about the grandstanding and expedient nature of the 'prosecution' and its case. While eagerly embracing a fair explanation of the events that led up to and produced this accident. If the general public in Philadelphia can be shown as much as was established in Durham County, perhaps another message can be sent to the expedient that our culture is revulsed by some kinds of expediency.
Flintlock76Actually, they gave Rommel the choice between a cyanide capsule and "you know what," for him and his family. But I see the point.
Yes, as he was a popular war hero and had enough service to retire..... choice was revolver and state funeral with all the honors as well as keep his Army pension or face Roland Friesler's court and be humiliated as well as his family lose his Army pension and their home and likely become destitute if he chose the state prosecution path.
Still popular politico family after the War his Son became Mayor of Stuttgart, Germany and kept getting re-elected, through the 1990's I believe. He was a very popular Mayor when I was stationed in the Army in West Germany and he was a frequent guest of American and Canadian forces. He gave tons of interviews to Stars and Stripes and AFN.
His Son was witness to that whole day and watched it unfold and also had some last words with his Father. I believe his Son was even in uniform on that day, forget which organization he belonged to at the time of his Father's death not sure if it was Nazi related or Army related. I think there is even a You Tube video with him in it narrating parts of that day.
Another interesting historical note, General Pattons Son became a General and also served in the Cold War Army in Germany and I believe commanded at least one of his former Father's Armored Divisions. I think that was early to mid-1970's though, can't remember and don't want to spend time Googling it. The Mengele Family survived the war as well and I think Bavaria bailed out their farm implements business which almost went bust but they were known prior to the war for making farming equipment like tractor drawn hay wagons. Medium Blue with MENGELE in large white letters on the tailgate.
Are there wayside speed limit signs along the Northeast Corridor? If so, how far before this 50 mph curve would the sign be posted?
Or is this strictly a know-your-territory situation?
Finally, does the FRA have any way to collect data regarding how often PTC slows a train, and whether an accident was likely prevented?
SD70DudeYou'll no doubt recall that the Nazis also used this tactic, with Rommel.
Actually, they gave Rommel the choice between a cyanide capsule and "you know what," for him and his family. But I see the point.
The Nazis DID do the "Prussian thing" with Ernst Roehm, the Storm Trooper chief during the 1934 "Blood Purge." They had to shoot him, he wouldn't give them the satisfaction of shooting himself.
Don't feel too sorry for him though, he wasn't exactly a nice guy either.
Mind you, if I was in Roehm's position I'd have sat in a chair, Luger in hand, and popped the first SS man that came in the room to find out what the delay was. Why not? He was a dead man anyway. Might as well take one with you.
Perhaps Bostian should plea a "crime of necessity" defense, wanting only to draw attenton to the inferior training, vetting, and supervision running rampant at Amtrak?
I doubt it would get him off the hook, but he at least might be able to drag a few others down with him, and make everyone sorry they charged him in the first place, which is almost as good.
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