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243129I have a decision to make. It is 95 degrees forecast to surpass 100 degrees today. Do I respond to zugman and charlie or do I .......
Can't see your pictures - but no rush. Just idle curiosity. Holding off on repsonding, until you can respond fully. I got stuff to do this afternoon, too.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
For some reason the picture will not post #&*%$@
charlie hebdoSo it seems that pay would need to be raised. That plus "regular hours" should be sufficient incentives to attract a few of those veteran and highly competent engineers to positions involving vetting and training, but not necessarily supervision of other engineers.
First level rail supervision earns less than the employees they supervise in most cases. The 'regular hours' are highly irregular.
Wage Slave is a apt description of 1st level rail supervision.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
243129 For some reason the picture will not post #&*%$@
Yeah, the forum software can be quite tricky sometimes.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
243129 .
Get a 404 error - File does not exist when attempting to view the pictures. For this forum pictures need to be linked from another on line source - your own computer is not such a link. That link needs to be inserted in the 'insert/edit image' icon's popup.
BaltACD charlie hebdo So it seems that pay would need to be raised. That plus "regular hours" should be sufficient incentives to attract a few of those veteran and highly competent engineers to positions involving vetting and training, but not necessarily supervision of other engineers. First level rail supervision earns less than the employees they supervise in most cases. The 'regular hours' are highly irregular. Wage Slave is a apt description of 1st level rail supervision.
charlie hebdo So it seems that pay would need to be raised. That plus "regular hours" should be sufficient incentives to attract a few of those veteran and highly competent engineers to positions involving vetting and training, but not necessarily supervision of other engineers.
Obviously for these positions, one would have to get around the obstacle of some counterproductive unions.
charlie hebdo BaltACD charlie hebdo So it seems that pay would need to be raised. That plus "regular hours" should be sufficient incentives to attract a few of those veteran and highly competent engineers to positions involving vetting and training, but not necessarily supervision of other engineers. First level rail supervision earns less than the employees they supervise in most cases. The 'regular hours' are highly irregular. Wage Slave is a apt description of 1st level rail supervision. Obviously for these positions, one would have to get around the obstacle of some counterproductive unions.
Unions have nothing to do with it. It is Senior Management's thought process that they are the only ones to be 'adequately' compensated - everyone else, both contract (union) and non-contract (supervisors) are a collective dime a dozen and aren't worth the monetary scraps that they are currently being paid.
At one time specific management postitions had specific rates of pay. When I became a part of management in 1970 that was not the case. Management positions were slotted in a number of 'pay grades' - the pay grades each had a range of compensation associated with it. All pay increases were based on your current compensation. Being promoted to a higher pay grade would normally give one a pay raise, however that was not guaranteed - as you may be near the top level of the lower pay grade and it is decided to promote you in grade but not in actual pay. In the higher pay grade you can work toward a higher top of grade value - whether you attain it or not is another question.
If you get to the top limit of your pay grade, you don't get any increase to your base pay amount - you get a 'bonus' of some percentage at periods specified by the company - quarterly or yearly are the normal periods.
All in all compensation of management is a shell game, at least until you reach the Senior Management level.
243129 zugmann 243129 For starters, entertain their expertise. So let me ask you - why have you never tried management? Sincere question - not snark. The short answer is it did not pay enough. I could make a lot more on the extra list. The long answer I will give tomorrow. It is too late (for me) tonight.
zugmann 243129 For starters, entertain their expertise. So let me ask you - why have you never tried management? Sincere question - not snark.
243129 For starters, entertain their expertise.
So let me ask you - why have you never tried management? Sincere question - not snark.
The short answer is it did not pay enough. I could make a lot more on the extra list. The long answer I will give tomorrow. It is too late (for me) tonight.
In 1993 I answered an advertisement for Transportation Manager knowing I would not be chosen. I had 30 years in engine service at the time and I was curious what their reason would be for turning me down.
The person chosen for the job was seen some months later wandering the yard with map in hand looking for track 29 where a damaged coach had been placed. Hopefully, these attachments can be viewed. They say a whole bunch about Amtrak's hiring procedure.
JOB .osBA 30033? TITLE: TRANSPORTATIO}J MANAGER II DEPT: TRANSPORTATION FiiSTI$trG #: N93061 NEW HAVEN, CTINE3 GRADE: 25 SALARY: $40,00CI T() $63,500 POINTS: 469 ISSUED: 87 128/s3 EXPIRES: 08104193 R.ELOCATION BENEFITS MAY AFPLY: YES POSITION IS SUBJECT TO REASSIGN-IENT: YES OUTSIDE CANDIDATES },IAY BE CONSIDERED: YES * .Ei:]ggFit-Ef ggEfFS#Br*$}, EHf=I trS:=fEEi*T f$ EE-\qF{}#HIEIE ii.,E 1:;;;=*'*EEEi*'i: THE SHORE I,INE EAST SEHVICE FOR THE STATE OF CONNECTICUT, DEPARTIiIENT OF TRANSPORTATION. RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SUPERVISION OF TRAIN & ENGTNE CREWS AI{D TB,4I{EEQETATION_F_U_PERy.I"So&S_ &&see€IR&B BB .cpEfi3*rING CO}rDrTroNS. RESPONSIBLE TO SEE THA? THOSE EMPLOYEES UNDER HIS/HER DIRECT SUPERVISION ARE FULLY QUALITIED IN THE PERFCRHANCE OF TITEIR DUTIES AND OPEH.ATE IN A SATE AND EF'FICIENT },lA,NNER. WHEN UNUSUAL CONDITION$ ETFECT THE'IUOVEMENT OF TRAINS, THE TRANSPORTATION MANAGER IT, IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE TRANSPORTATION IqANAGER I, WILL PRCIVIDE FIELD SUPERVISION TO ENSURE THE LBAST POSSIBLE ADVERSE ETE''ECT TO THE TRAVELING PUBLIC. RESPONSIBLE FOR THE D]RECT SUPERVISION OF T & E CREWS. QIJALITICATIONS: MUST HAVE }IIGH 5CHOOL DIPLOMA. PRETER COLLEGE DEGREE. MUST HAVE MINIMUM 4 YEARS IN RAILROAD OPERATIONS AND EAMILIARITY WITI{ RAILROAD OPERATIONS AND SATETY RULES. PREtr'ER 2 YEARS SUPERVISORY BXPERIENCE ]N TIEI,D. MUST BE QUALIFIED ON LOCOMOTIVE EUQIPMENT; EXPER]ENCE WITH TRAIN AND ESUIPMENT OPERATIONS; KN0WLEDGE oF VARIOUS *FFLICABLE LAEOR AGREEMENTS. KSM$TLEDGE OE* TRAIN 1'{OVEFTEMTS. MSUT BE ABLE TO MAKE QUICK, ACCURATE DECISIONS REGARDING OPERATING PROBLEMS. MUST BE ABLE TO COMMUNICATE ETFECTIVELY, BOTH ORALLY AND IN WRITING WTTH ALL LEVELS OF PERSONNEL, AS WELL AS RA]LROAD OPERATING PERSONNEL. TRAVEL 80 PERCENT. PRIOR SATISFACTORY JOB PERF'ORMANCE REOUTRED.
**Trilonal Railroad Passenger Corporation, Personne! Department, 253 Summer Street, Bcston, MA 02210 October 8, 1993 Mr. Joseph D. McMahon - - rDear Mr. McMahon: - Thank you for submitting a Job opportunity Application for.the position of Transportation uaniqer tt.-poilinq notice number N93061-. The selestion process for intervier*s has been extremely difficult due to the number of qualified ernployees v,iho applied. we have carefully reviewed your qualifications, and while your experience is suhstantial, the qualificai,ions of other candidates rerated more directly to trre requirements of the position. To this end, we nolr advise you that your application wilt not be processed further for this particurar.position. rf you have any questions regarding this decision, please call me at ATS s-sao-zoos or ( 617) 345-7608. . we appreciate your interest in furthering your career with Amtrak and look forward to receiving aaaitional job opportunity applications from you in the future ttt Sincerely, t,' !Lr.] t:, jt!a { nt .4. At","/;i,Lu -{;ad.{b;), it- i vlq' L, Suzafiine Altan Representative Human Resources
I don't know what happened to the text. I highlighted and copied the original and this is how it came out. Sorry but perhaps you can decipher it.
243129In 1993 I answered an advertisement for Transportation Manager knowing I would not be chosen. I had 30 years in engine service at the time and I was curious what their reason would be for turning me down.
Perhaps you projected that attitude more than you thought and the interviewer picked up on it? Part of the vetting process - would you want to hire someone who didn't really want the job?
And a follow up, if you were offered the job - would you have taken it? And second, did you at least call them and inquire why you weren't chosen?
zugmannPerhaps you projected that attitude more than you thought and the interviewer picked up on it?
No, there was no in-person interview. All that was submitted was an application on which I listed my qualifications.
zugmannAnd a follow up, if you were offered the job - would you have taken it?
No.
zugmann And second, did you at least call them and inquire why you weren't chosen?
Why? The response letter was pretty direct.
The skills that make a person a good line worker (engineer, mechanic, etc.) are not necessarily the same skills that a person needs to be a good supervisor.
zugmannI'm guessing lack of direct supervisory experince may have foiled you.
The person selected had no operations experience.
zugmannOr your resume/cover letter wasn't great.
It was a generic form. Fill in the blanks. No cover letter.
zugmann Figured you weren't genuinely interested.
How can interest be determined by a standard form?
zugmannThen why apply?
To show that Amtrak has a penchant (or motive) for hiring the unqualified.
CSSHEGEWISCH The skills that make a person a good line worker (engineer, mechanic, etc.) are not necessarily the same skills that a person needs to be a good supervisor.
Agreed. However, one must have experience in the operation they are hired to supervise. That attribute is not required at Amtrak.
Interesting they didn't have resumes/cover letters back then (although could they be attached?). But I'm guessing they made some phone calls. You know how RRers love to talk about each other out here. I think your reputation preceeded you.
So another question - did you have any supervisory experience? Do you know if the person they hired did? Was he from the terminal? I mean, if they hired you and shipped you to Chicago (or somewhere else you never have worked) - you would have to learn the trackage, too.
This can't be said enough! I have met some fine railroaders that were awful as supervisors.
An "expensive model collector"
243129 CSSHEGEWISCH The skills that make a person a good line worker (engineer, mechanic, etc.) are not necessarily the same skills that a person needs to be a good supervisor. Agreed. However, one must have experience in the operation they are hired to supervise.
Agreed. However, one must have experience in the operation they are hired to supervise.
No, they don't. I have seen some "off the street" supervisors that were very good at what they did. The learning curve for them was much higher, but at the end of the day, railroading is not rocket science.
zugmannInteresting they didn't have resumes/cover letters back then (although could they be attached?).
zugmannI think your reputation preceeded you.
What do you estimate that my reputation is?
zugmannSo another question - did you have any supervisory experience?
zugmannDo you know if the person they hired did?
The person hired had no operations experience.
zugmann I mean, if they hired you and shipped you to Chicago (or somewhere else you never have worked) - you would have to learn the trackage, too.
I would not take a supervisory position outside of the area of my expertise.
n012944No, they don't.
Are you the head of Amtrak HR?
n012944but at the end of the day, railroading is not rocket science.
Oh yeah no problem descending a 2 or 3% grade with a 10 or 12,000-ton freight. Easy as pie not "rocket science".
243129 n012944 No, they don't. Are you the head of Amtrak HR? n012944 but at the end of the day, railroading is not rocket science. Oh yeah no problem descending a 2 or 3% grade with a 10 or 12,000-ton freight. Easy as pie not "rocket science".
n012944 No, they don't.
n012944 but at the end of the day, railroading is not rocket science.
Nobody said it was easy, it is just not rocket science. The part of my quote that you edited out, about the learning curve being higher for someone off the street touched on that.
243129What do you estimate that my reputation is?
You seem to be very outspoken and think of yourself very highly. You seem to have a less than ideal view on management. You also don't seem like you'd give up the engine cab for a cubicle. Maybe this is just your online persona, but I doubt it.
The question is - what do you estimate your reputation to be?
When I ahd an old-head trainmaster talk to me about going into management some day - he told me that "the biggest challenge is that your loyalties must be to the company first - everything else is second". I don't think you could do that. I don't know if I could.
243129I would not take a supervisory position outside of the area of my expertise.
I don't think knowing what a yard looks like is an "area of expertise". I've learned what lots of places were after I was hired - just like you have had to. It's part of the job. Was there a option of "will you be willing to relocate" that you had to check? I see it is listed on the description, I think, but my Kingon's kind of rusty. I know my company doesn't always keep people in the area they worked on the ground and with promotion comes relocation.
But it looks like supervisory experience > operational in the eyes of HR.
243129Oh yeah no problem descending a 2 or 3% grade with a 10 or 12,000-ton freight. Easy as pie not "rocket science".
Didn't know amtrak had many of those.
(added below)
n012944Nobody said it was easy, it is just not rocket science. The part of my quote that you edited out, about the learning curve being higher for someone off the street touched on that.
What's easier? To teach a RRer to be a manager or to teach a manager to be a RRer?
zugmann n012944 Nobody said it was easy, it is just not rocket science. The part of my quote that you edited out, about the learning curve being higher for someone off the street touched on that. What's easier? To teach a RRer to be a manager or to teach a manager to be a RRer?
n012944 Nobody said it was easy, it is just not rocket science. The part of my quote that you edited out, about the learning curve being higher for someone off the street touched on that.
Honestly, if one is willing to learn, it is easier to teach a 'professional' manager to railroad than it is to teach a railroader to be a professional manager. As n012944 says railroading is not rocket science. Dealing with employees and getting them to 'do what you want' without carrying the biggest stick and being the biggest A hole is a skill many railroaders find impossible to master.
On CSX it was practically guaranteed if you accepted promotion from the crafts, you WOULD NOT be assigned to the territory where you had worked in the crafts.
n012944The part of my quote that you edited out, about the learning curve being higher for someone off the street touched on that.
I am still mystified as to how you can advocate supervision learning as they 'go'. If you yourself don't know the job how can you supervise others?
If you take guys from teh craft, you're probably going to have to teach them supervisory skills.
Having someone with operating experience, supervisory experience, and that wants the management job? Probably a very small list (if it exists).
zugmannYou seem to be very outspoken and think of yourself very highly.
Yes I am outspoken. Dale Carnegie I am not. What you refer to as thinking highly of myself is actually pride and confidence in my former occupation.
zugmannYou seem to have a less than ideal view on management.
How can you professionally respect a manager who has no background and minimal knowledge of railroad operations? D.J. Stadtler comes to mind, Amtrak appointed him VP-Operations and he possessed ZERO railroad experience.
zugmann The question is - what do you estimate your reputation to be?
A competent, safe locomotive engineer.
zugmannDidn't know amtrak had many of those.
Amtrak has none. The first 20 years of my 51 year career(1963-2014) in engine service beginning with the New Haven involved being qualified in ALL classes of service and all motive equipment on it's roster which dated from the 1940's to the present.
Snark noted.
There was no snark. I'm long past that. If you think there's snark, then so be it - I really don't care. The thing about amtrak freights was a joke, hence the smiley face.
I've known a couple managers that did not come from the craft that were very competent and were held in very high regard by those in the craft. They learned the craft, learned and understood the rules, and were good managers that treated us with respect and dignity, all while keeping the terminals fluid. We didn't want to get in trouble because we didn't want those managers to have to write us up. I've also known guys that came from the craft that I would have sworn sold their soul to the devil, but I don't think they had one to begin with. They could run a train, but couldn't run a terminal.
I have no doubt you were a competent & safe engineer. But would you be manager material?
zugmannThere was no snark. I'm long past that. If you think there's snark, then so be it - I really don't care. The thing about amtrak freights was a joke, hence the smiley face.
Your reputation preceded you.
zugmann But would you be manager material?
In railroad operations on my home division, yes.
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