charlie hebdoIt's called a discussion. Just because not everyone agrees with this "proposal" doesn't mean we are "bent out of (or into) shape." I don't know your age or situation, but you are starting to sound like some student who insists on "safe zones" on campus so he doesn't have to hear ideas he doesn't like. I happen to believe in free speech.
I fully respect your right to want one thing from a future Penn Station, just as I'm sure you respect mine, given that we both believe in free speech and, presumably, freedom of thought. I'm not attempting to change your mind, and you are clearly incapable of changing mine.
So let's accept the fact that you and I have different visions for the future of Penn Station, and then maybe we can watch some Hallmark Christmas movies together and drink some hot cocoa.
Shock Control charlie hebdo See if you can find a private fund willing to undertake your project. Once again, let this serve as a friendly reminder that this is not MY project: It is an existing project, the proponents of which include professional architects. I happen to support THEIR project, and merely asked about the status. I don't understand why so many participants here are bent out of shape because there is someone on the interwebz who supports a project that they don't agree with. I am not invalidating anyone else's views, but a few here seem to be invalidating mine. The entire world does not share your views.
charlie hebdo See if you can find a private fund willing to undertake your project.
Once again, let this serve as a friendly reminder that this is not MY project: It is an existing project, the proponents of which include professional architects. I happen to support THEIR project, and merely asked about the status.
I don't understand why so many participants here are bent out of shape because there is someone on the interwebz who supports a project that they don't agree with. I am not invalidating anyone else's views, but a few here seem to be invalidating mine. The entire world does not share your views.
It's called a discussion. Just because not everyone agrees with this "proposal" doesn't mean we are "bent out of (or into) shape." I don't know your age or situation, but you are starting to sound like some student who insists on "safe zones" on campus so he doesn't have to hear ideas he doesn't like. I happen to believe in free speech.
Just to stick a cork or a fork in the to-and-fro part of this 'discussion': for some reason no one has actually posted information or links to the 'project' in question yet. The master plan (which has links to other collateral and contact information for the principals, is here,
https://www.rebuildpennstation.org/master-plan
and a relatively recent article, from what in retrospect is a fairly obvious source, is here (from August 2019)
(The embedded links may show up properly once IT stops playing with its pacifier or whatever)
I suspect Mr. Cameron of Atelier would be the best real source for answers to any real, hard questions regarding the actuality of funding or political action being taken to advance this project; he would certainly be a likely if not first point of contact for anyone actually interested in participating. Much of a ongoing detail discussion in a forum like this is not likely to be particularly gainful without understanding the actual details of the plan itself.
(Let me add, with all of love, that the essential point of my 'six orders of magnitude' was intended strictly rhetorically, and any further discussion of cost, or funding, should refer directly to details or numbers in the published collateral or obtained directly from people with some reasonable authority to 'know stuff' who are willing to speak from the inside on what's actually being done.)
charlie hebdoSee if you can find a private fund willing to undertake your project.
My dad served on the USS Wilhoite, a destroyer escort. Both theaters. He would talk about being in the North Atlantic during a winter storm. Harrowing. In their later years, the shipmates would reunite each year. Such a strong bond among them. Something to witness!
NKP guy Flintlock76 NKP, years back I worked with a man who was a WW2 carrier veteran, the USS Lexington, to be exact. He told me something similar, "Until you've see guys work to save a ship, you've never seen guys work!" "When the nearest land is two miles straight down, what else are you gonna do?" Flintlock, weren't those guys, and their gals, one hell of a generation?
Flintlock76 NKP, years back I worked with a man who was a WW2 carrier veteran, the USS Lexington, to be exact. He told me something similar, "Until you've see guys work to save a ship, you've never seen guys work!" "When the nearest land is two miles straight down, what else are you gonna do?"
Flintlock, weren't those guys, and their gals, one hell of a generation?
And how! And believe me, I mean absolutely no insult to the kids serving in uniform now, they're priceless, but in my opinion those sailors and Marines we had during WW2 were the BEST naval service we ever had. Or anyone ever had. Bar none.
And the real miracle is how quickly and how well it was built! Think about it. Kids who a year before didn't know port from starboard, or a mainmast from a scupper, or what end of a Browning 1917 water-cooled did what, or an M-1 from an M&M, were turned into the most formidable fighting force the world has ever seen!
And now we're losing them, more each year. It has to happen of course, time marches on, but it doesn't make it any easier.
Flintlock76NKP, years back I worked with a man who was a WW2 carrier veteran, the USS Lexington, to be exact. He told me something similar, "Until you've see guys work to save a ship, you've never seen guys work!" "When the nearest land is two miles straight down, what else are you gonna do?"
SC: You may have worked at one but you clearly don't know anything about the costs, which several of us laid out, in my case the operating expense of a large symphony orchestra. The cost to rebuild authentically the old Penn monstrosity dwarfs any symphony budget. Further, your analogy of orchestral works and a building is flawed. One is an attempt at a work of art; the other is performance art, designed to be played an indefinite number of times.
See if you can find a private fund willing to undertake your project. Amtrak and government are not going to waste taxpayer dollars on a project of such dubious aesthetics.
NKP guy Flintlock76 "To answer the question nobody's asked, 'How far are we above the river?', the answer is, eight seconds!" As a naive young teenager, I once asked my dad, a US Navy WW2 vet, if he had ever been afraid of drowning or having his ship (battleship Pennsylvania BB-38) lost way out there on the Pacific Ocean. "Hell, no," he snorted. Then with a grin he said, "After all, the nearest land is always only about five miles away." Before I could say What do you mean? he added, "straight down."
Flintlock76 "To answer the question nobody's asked, 'How far are we above the river?', the answer is, eight seconds!"
As a naive young teenager, I once asked my dad, a US Navy WW2 vet, if he had ever been afraid of drowning or having his ship (battleship Pennsylvania BB-38) lost way out there on the Pacific Ocean.
"Hell, no," he snorted. Then with a grin he said, "After all, the nearest land is always only about five miles away." Before I could say What do you mean? he added, "straight down."
NKP, years back I worked with a man who was a WW2 carrier veteran, the USS Lexington, to be exact.
He told me something similar, "Until you've see guys work to save a ship, you've never seen guys work!"
"When the nearest land is two miles straight down, what else are you gonna do?"
charlie hebdoApparently neither have you.
I have.
Flintlock76"To answer the question nobody's asked, 'How far are we above the river?', the answer is, eight seconds!"
Shock Control Overmod The first nontrivial point being the six-odd orders of magnitude difference in the costs to do so.
Overmod The first nontrivial point being the six-odd orders of magnitude difference in the costs to do so.
Shock Control Overmod The first nontrivial point being the six-odd orders of magnitude difference in the costs to do so. You've apparently never worked for an orchestra! In the US, many struggle to pay the light bill for their administrative offices!
You've apparently never worked for an orchestra! In the US, many struggle to pay the light bill for their administrative offices!
Apparently neither have you. The world-class Chicago Symphony Orchestra had total operating expenses in fiscal year ending June 30, 2018 of $73.7 million with a loss of $911,000. Obviously the rebuild of Penn Station would be far more.
I just remembered!
About 20 years ago we rode the Royal Gorge cable car attraction out in Colorado.
About half-way across the Gorge the docent in the car addressed us thusly...
"To answer the question nobody's asked, 'How far are we above the river?', the answer is, eight seconds!"
Just thought I'd bring that up! Looky...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkbZNJu3KiI
OvermodThe first nontrivial point being the six-odd orders of magnitude difference in the costs to do so.
Overmod It's not really that stupid; it's gondolas (I think at least partially open-sided) in a cable-car type system. And it appears to have been progressing nicely as late as October 2019.
It's not really that stupid; it's gondolas (I think at least partially open-sided) in a cable-car type system. And it appears to have been progressing nicely as late as October 2019.
The artist's rendering in the linked article has the gondola doors on the wrong side. Nevertheless, gondolas are getting to be used more as transit. Ski areas used early models to get skiers up the slope, but modern detachable versions are being used more and more as shuttles between parking lots, base areas, and resort areas. Gondolas can be added and removed as traffic warrents. They can change directions, and can have any number of intermediate stops.
Shock Control If a symphony can be played twice, a structure can be built twice.
If a symphony can be played twice, a structure can be built twice.
The first nontrivial point being the six-odd orders of magnitude difference in the costs to do so.
The second being whether symphony-goers care to hear the piece played twice if they have to pay for it ... or anyone else cares to be a patron.
The argument whether the piece deserves to be played twice, which I seem to have been grandfathered into, only applies after all the 'realization stuff' has been covered.
I wouldn't actually mind if someone did try rebuilding Penn Station as a replica. As I said, I know people that can do it, and do it sensitively and well. But we have no need to start before you'uns put your money or effort where your mouths and keyboards are and show you can make it happen. I'd suspect everyone else in a position to do the same will give you a similar answer.
Keep in mind that we had a bunch of folks who swore up and down that no one could build a working T1. Observe how this changed... and why. Then 'go and do thou likewise'
Flintlock76 I'll tell you, I've seen less grumpy old men in nursing homes!
Overmod I believe the online full newspaper article (accessible at the end of the piece I linked) has something like 59 illustrations, and some of those will show renderings that people who know Albany can appreciate.
Maybe they can run it to the old freezer warehouse that is going to be turned into... (flips through articles to see what the hair-brained proposition is *this* month)
Don't even have a hockey team to see anymore.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Cable cars? I don't know, cable cars have made me nervous ever since I saw "The Crawling Eye" as a kid. (Good ol' Channel 9, WOR, out of New York!)
"Where Eagles Dare" didn't help either.
Oh, "Shock Control," love that "call-sign" by the way, I see you didn't do a biography, I wanted to find out more about you, but that's OK.
Anyway, don't be put off by the grumpy old men on the Forum. I for one am interested in what you have to say. I'm interested in what everyone has to say for that matter.
I'll tell you, I've seen less grumpy old men in nursing homes! Maybe there's more of us here because dementia hasn't caught up with us yet?
Overmod The people building the cable system say it will be about a mile long, highest tower point about 133' above terrain, ending 'downtown near the Times Union Center'. I believe the online full newspaper article (accessible at the end of the piece I linked) has something like 59 illustrations, and some of those will show renderings that people who know Albany can appreciate.
The people building the cable system say it will be about a mile long, highest tower point about 133' above terrain, ending 'downtown near the Times Union Center'. I believe the online full newspaper article (accessible at the end of the piece I linked) has something like 59 illustrations, and some of those will show renderings that people who know Albany can appreciate.
It would be a lot more interesting and much less expensive if Amtrak were to build a giant Zip line from Rennselaer station, over the Hudson, and then into downtown Albany somewhere (and back...why not?). Imagine legislators, businessmen and tourists taking a fast, eco-friendly zip line ride, especially in the winter! Finally, transportation for millenials! And no food, either...Mr. Anderson ought to love that.
The cable car system sounds interesting. Particularly with its connection with the railway station. Would the other end connect to the Capitol complex? Always thought that looked like out of a SciFi movie.
Overmod What you should have said is 'directly or indirectly' -- with the emphasis on indirectly...
What you should have said is 'directly or indirectly' -- with the emphasis on indirectly...
Thank you for helping me with the English language. I'm still learning.
Regarding Penn Station, let's see how the Monyhan Station conversion of the old Farley Post Office works out. Maybe it will turn out to be a worthy successor to the old Penn Station at its best, a worthy gateway comparible to the restored and magnificent Grand Central Terminal.
Again, I was really suprised at the beautiful station the Transit Authority has provided at Stillwell Avenue, Coney Island.
And the new World Center complex, including the No. 1's Courtland Street Station, seems like an inspired architectural work.
And they seem to be doing the right job with Times Square and the 42nd Street Shuttle.
Teleferiques, cable-cars, arial tramways, whatever you call them, have proven to be practical transportation devices. We have one in Israel, pretty much modeled on the French one, Grenoble's, from the seasaide beach to a moutain resort hotel and restaurant, south of Haifa, the "Rakball.". I see no reason why a trans-Hudson River one would not be practical and a break-even or better on fares and operational expensses. For their particular use, they are a useful alternative to a funicular in climbing mountains, and crossing rivers, and the one that served Governors Island was certainly practical while it operated. Today, the island, now Roosevelt Island, has a subway stop, so the arial tramway is not necessary and cannot compete with the more frequent service and the city-wide distrbution of the subway system.
Flintlock76A full-size Pennsylvania Station reconstruction wouldn't be practical, nor possibly even necessary. Say a half-size or even quarter-size, just enough to get the job done but not taking up as much block space? Good enough to give everyone a taste of what was?
Wayne ... it's not the same. You'll have to put a sign like the bars at Disneyland on the entrances saying 'you must be at least this short to enter this attraction'.
At that rate, it would be better to build a T scale replica, and build nanobots with addressable cameras that would allow 'telepresence' through the "station" right down to waiting trains. With the money you save you could pipe blue-electricity and mold/piss smells into the VR headsets to further enlargen the experience. Put it in a glass case like the marble machine that used to grace the 41st St. bus terminal and make it an Internet attraction -- it would assuredly be more popular and more fun than any static re-creation of a station without any trains.
Shock ControlIt is credited - correctly or incorrectly - with sparking the historic preservation movement in the US.
What you should have said is 'directly or indirectly' -- with the emphasis on indirectly.
All the real action with historic preservation was in the Save Grand Central effort. Admittedly the demolition of Penn Station was a wake-up call to put teeth into laws for 'the future' that applied when we went to DC to lobby the Supreme Court, but note that nobody cared while Penn Station came down, or made any really perceptible delay in the schedule.
One interesting difference was that the project threatening Grand Central in the late '70s was NOT a demolition of significant parts of the station, and was (for the time) remarkably sensitive to keeping a great deal of the major 'historic fabric'. That was Breuer's second proposal. Even so, it was enough of a threat to mobilize everyone necessary to organize to save GCT.
It did not help in 1963 that the Pennsylvania, unmerged, was still at least nominally a for-profit company seeking best returns on its assets. The same could have been said about the Hyperboloid project, which may well have resulted in a kind of 'incinerated house' footprint of the GCT headhouse around its base -- I believe the major thing that stopped that was Young's suicide, not any meaningful community opposition at the time. Even in the late '70s you'd find morons claiming that Breuer's tower would 'destroy the view down Park Avenue' ... perhaps forgetting about this little thing called the Pan Am building that had already been there since not long after the Hyperboloid's time.
zugmannSupposed to have shops and a base station for a chair lift across the Hudson (among other crazy things)...
Whether this idea was ginned up in a haze of marijuana smoke, as the Welfare Island cablecar was, I can't say; it is certainly more of a mainstream attraction than, say, the Mist Rider setup. It may be amusing to see if commuters from the west shore use it; who would have thought that the ferry at Beacon would have been kept this long? If this is one of those cable systems that attaches and detaches cars, a few well-heeled commuters could spring for a private bar 'car' to cross the Hudson in enclosed air-conditioned comfort and perhaps then to down a few brews on shore power on arrival. Sure is less cost and less trouble than private club cars on subsidized passenger trains now, and less political fallout too!
Flintlock76How about a compromise? A full-size Pennsylvania Station reconstruction wouldn't be practical, nor possibly even necessary. Say a half-size or even quarter-size, just enough to get the job done but not taking up as much block space? Good enough to give everyone a taste of what was?
I dunno. They built that big station thing in Rensselaer, NY. Supposed to have shops and a base station for a chair lift across the Hudson (among other crazy things), and none of it ever really materialized. A monument to excess it seems.
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