Like any other 'public works' project it only takes two things to pull off.
Money and the will to accomplish the project, throw in engineering skills to implement it.
One thing without the other is failure.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I thought the plan to convert the Farley post office to the Moynihan station was supposed to fix all that. Is that still happening?
The parasites killed off the host.
Greener pastures elsewhere.
54light15I thought the plan to convert the Farley post office to the Moynihan station was supposed to fix all that. Is that still happening?
Call it the Moynihan Train Hall.
Here is the SOM page for the project.
Meanwhile, the improvements to "Penn Station" itself are also coming along, although I remain underwhelmed:
https://untappedcities.com/2019/06/19/photos-penn-station-renovation-begins-with-modern-new-entrances-along-7th-avenue/
So is the movement to re-build the old Penn Station officially belly-up?
Shock Control So is the movement to re-build the old Penn Station officially belly-up?
CSSHEGEWISCH Shock Control So is the movement to re-build the old Penn Station officially belly-up? Rebuilding the old Pennsylvania Station (designed by Stanford White) would be unlikely since you would have to demolish Madison Square Garden.
Regardless of the practicality, there is/was a movement to rebuild the station. Has it officially been 86ed?
Madison Square Garden will be demolished...in about 18 or 20 years or so.
As I recall from the New York Times, the owners of MSG were just finishing expensive renovations there a few years ago when the City started agitating again for them to leave the site. As a compromise, and because the plans for the station weren't/haven't been finalized, and because funding wasn't/isn't solved, the owners of MSG were given a further 20 years' lease on the site. The MSG needs time to find another location and the City needs time to plan for a new station.
No one is seriously considering rebuilding the old station for a host of reasons. Instead, there are plans to either: 1. design and build an all-new station, or 2. strip off the walls of MSG and re-use the steel structure for a new station. The second proposal not only would be less expensive and more innovative, it is visually more interesting. Maybe someone here can post those two proposals.
The tunnels situation is by far the more imperative project at this time.
As for the demolished station, it wasn't that lovely, anyway. It was impressive, yes, but really it was just a great heap of stones. It didn't charm users as GCT did/does and was not particularly loved by New Yorkers the way GCT was from the start. And no one then or now ever enjoyed the two-floors thing at Penn Station.
In the meantime: Keep on scuttling.
I don't really get it.
Will the Moyhihan Train Hall essentially be the lobby/grand hall/whatever for the entire complex? But many train travelers (all Amtrak passengers?) will still have to walk from there to/thru the existing shabby, cramped waiting room to get to their trains?
I guess what I'm mainly asking is: is the MTH the gateway to all the trains, or only some of them?
And re what I read about renovations in Penn Station, is that essentially sprucing up the old waiting area (which will become a walk-thru concourse for people using Amtrak trains)?
If I take Amtrak from Boston to NYC, how will my experience be different?
I guess I'm asking this: how will the MTH and the existing Penn Station relate to each other?
Lithonia OperatorI guess I'm asking this: how will the MTH and the existing Penn Station relate to each other?
If I understand your question correctly, at the present time MTH is for the use of Long Island Railroad trains and passengers; Amtrak uses Penn Station.
runnerdude48 Lithonia Operator I guess I'm asking this: how will the MTH and the existing Penn Station relate to each other? If you can answer that question I think they will make you project manager
Lithonia Operator I guess I'm asking this: how will the MTH and the existing Penn Station relate to each other?
If you can answer that question I think they will make you project manager
NKP guy If I understand your question correctly, at the present time MTH is for the use of Long Island Railroad trains and passengers; Amtrak uses Penn Station.
That's depressing.
Thanks for answering, though.
NKP guy Madison Square Garden will be demolished...in about 18 or 20 years or so. As I recall from the New York Times, the owners of MSG were just finishing expensive renovations there a few years ago when the City started agitating again for them to leave the site. As a compromise, and because the plans for the station weren't/haven't been finalized, and because funding wasn't/isn't solved, the owners of MSG were given a further 20 years' lease on the site. The MSG needs time to find another location and the City needs time to plan for a new station. No one is seriously considering rebuilding the old station for a host of reasons. Instead, there are plans to either: 1. design and build an all-new station, or 2. strip off the walls of MSG and re-use the steel structure for a new station. The second proposal not only would be less expensive and more innovative, it is visually more interesting. Maybe someone here can post those two proposals. The tunnels situation is by far the more imperative project at this time. As for the demolished station, it wasn't that lovely, anyway. It was impressive, yes, but really it was just a great heap of stones. It didn't charm users as GCT did/does and was not particularly loved by New Yorkers the way GCT was from the start. And no one then or now ever enjoyed the two-floors thing at Penn Station. In the meantime: Keep on scuttling.
Thanks. Would you happen to know if the movement to re-build the old Penn Station is officially belly-up?
Shock ControlThanks. Would you happen to know if the movement to re-build the old Penn Station is officially belly-up?
No, sorry. I haven't seen it proclaimed as "officially belly-up" anywhere. But neither have I seen it discussed anywhere since it was first proposed (by no one with any clout). The other two proposals, yes, but not a re-build.
Check the New York Times archive (or Google it) for complete and accurate information and status on this subject.
There's little point in even considering a 'historic re-creation' of Penn Station with the air rights over the site being so valuable. Note in very specific particular that the rebuilt roof in the Moynihan Train Hall is intended to 'recreate the experience' of the old building -- arguably a much better experience than the original, with its wacky interior layout, would likely do.
There are certainly some improvements to the existing station layout, but they are largely 'peripheral' or internal, and the effective scuttling from the street to any point in the station's actual rail infrastructure other than at Moynihan is likely to continue in that sense.
I had been laboring under the impression that the actual track access to Amtrak arrival and departure platforms would be provided through MTH by the time it has been completed. I certainly haven't found any evidence that that has changed.
I was briefly active in a design proposal to re-create something like the Penn Station space "under" a new air-rights building to replace MSG. This would involve considerable expense which, again, is provided via MTH considerably more cost-effectively even if there were to be no effective re-use of the MSG internal structure in any new construction in the air rights. It was given a pretty definitive kibosh back in the day when MSG started doing the extensive renovations on their spaces ... whether you think they were cost-effectively justified or not, they made them, and would expect to be paid for them in any station rebuilding project.
NKP guy Shock Control Thanks. Would you happen to know if the movement to re-build the old Penn Station is officially belly-up? No, sorry. I haven't seen it proclaimed as "officially belly-up" anywhere. But neither have I seen it discussed anywhere since it was first proposed (by no one with any clout). The other two proposals, yes, but not a re-build. Check the New York Times archive (or Google it) for complete and accurate information and status on this subject.
Shock Control Thanks. Would you happen to know if the movement to re-build the old Penn Station is officially belly-up?
Thanks. I couldn't tell if the newer developments effectively superceded the rebuild proposal. I hadn't heard much about it recently, which is why I asked.
Overmod Shock Control Thanks. Would you happen to know if the movement to re-build the old Penn Station is officially belly-up? There's little point in even considering a 'historic re-creation' of Penn Station with the air rights over the site being so valuable. Note in very specific particular that the rebuilt roof in the Moynihan Train Hall is intended to 'recreate the experience' of the old building -- arguably a much better experience than the original, with its wacky interior layout, would likely do. There are certainly some improvements to the existing station layout, but they are largely 'peripheral' or internal, and the effective scuttling from the street to any point in the station's actual rail infrastructure other than at Moynihan is likely to continue in that sense. I had been laboring under the impression that the actual track access to Amtrak arrival and departure platforms would be provided through MTH by the time it has been completed. I certainly haven't found any evidence that that has changed. I was briefly active in a design proposal to re-create something like the Penn Station space "under" a new air-rights building to replace MSG. This would involve considerable expense which, again, is provided via MTH considerably more cost-effectively even if there were to be no effective re-use of the MSG internal structure in any new construction in the air rights. It was given a pretty definitive kibosh back in the day when MSG started doing the extensive renovations on their spaces ... whether you think they were cost-effectively justified or not, they made them, and would expect to be paid for them in any station rebuilding project.
Someplace else? Such as?
Stop trying to recreate the past. Build a modern, light, airy structure that has good access and egress.
Wasn't there a plan to build a new MSG over top of the LIRR storage yards on the West side?
That area is now the site of the new Hudson Yards development, which includes a number of new buildings and has dramatically changed the look of that part of Manhattan.
Too bad a new MSG wasn't part of Hudson Yards; it's a lost opportunity.
charlie hebdo Someplace else? Such as? Stop trying to recreate the past. Build a modern, light, airy structure that has good access and egress.
Sorry, but I love architecture at least as much as I love trains, if not moreso. If Europe can rebuild structures destroyed by the Nazis, then the US should be able to rebuild an architectural marvel destroyed by ignorance and short-sightedness.
Shock ControlThanks. Then I think that they should rebuild it someplace else where the air space is not that valuable.
The initial problem with this is that it implies 'not on Manhattan'.
You could always try building it in Vegas, or perhaps Lake Havasu City to complement the 'historic preservation' already there. Good luck raising the money!
I'd again note that the roof over the revised Moynihan Train Hall is explicitly intended as a historical reference to the 'experience' of the old Penn Station.
All you really need to know about the net profitability of a new MSG vs. residential and commercial occupied space can be seen in how Hudson Yards is being developed. (Personally I don't see the point in having a "Madison Square Garden" so far away from Madison Square in the first place, but it isn't that much different from St. Louis San Francisco when you look at it purely as a brand...)
Shock ControlIf Europe can rebuild structures destroyed by the Nazis, then the US should be able to rebuild an architectural marvel destroyed by ignorance and short-sightedness.
The issue is not about ability; it's about money, opportunity cost, and appreciation. To most New Yorkers alive to remember it, I suspect Penn Station was a large, somewhat smelly, white elephant of a building sitting on a prime real-estate location, and they would be to put it bluntly disinterested in paying billions to get it back even in 1910 condition. Change their minds and you might get somewhere.
I can probably put a design team together in no more than a few weeks from Hudson River Heritage-accessible sources alone to plan and supervise the work, if you arrange to have the dedicated construction funds in escrow. Let me know when you do. (That is, if you don't mind people from 'historically green-team area' contexts doing the work... )
Overmod Shock Control If Europe can rebuild structures destroyed by the Nazis, then the US should be able to rebuild an architectural marvel destroyed by ignorance and short-sightedness. The issue is not about ability; it's about money, opportunity cost, and appreciation. To most New Yorkers alive to remember it, I suspect Penn Station was a large, somewhat smelly, white elephant of a building sitting on a prime real-estate location, and they would be to put it bluntly disinterested in paying billions to get it back even in 1910 condition. Change their minds and you might get somewhere. I can probably put a design team together in no more than a few weeks from Hudson River Heritage-accessible sources alone to plan and supervise the work, if you arrange to have the dedicated construction funds in escrow. Let me know when you do. (That is, if you don't mind people from 'historically green-team area' contexts doing the work... )
Shock Control If Europe can rebuild structures destroyed by the Nazis, then the US should be able to rebuild an architectural marvel destroyed by ignorance and short-sightedness.
I admittedly am not holding my breath. The decisionmakers in our current dystopian society probably lack the intelligence and taste to rebuild the old station.
Shock ControlThe decisionmakers in our current dystopian society probably lack the intelligence and taste to rebuild the old station.
But it doesn't go that far. Whether or not the majority of the electorate is mouth-breathing, they (and the decision-makers they elect or can influence) will almost certainly find money spent on a fancy building for the rich pointless while there are social justice causes to be served with those funds. Regardless of how much funding can be arranged.
Now, if you could get a consortium of the rich together to build a replacement station ... and I know of several in the New York area who, together, could arrange for it ... you might get somewhere. Good luck again using an 'intelligence and taste' argument to get them to allocate their money to that, though -- although I suspect Ira Rennert at his Fairfield peak could have set it up if you gave him naming rights on it.
Overmod Shock Control The decisionmakers in our current dystopian society probably lack the intelligence and taste to rebuild the old station. But it doesn't go that far. Whether or not the majority of the electorate is mouth-breathing, they (and the decision-makers they elect or can influence) will almost certainly find money spent on a fancy building for the rich pointless while there are social justice causes to be served with those funds. Regardless of how much funding can be arranged. Now, if you could get a consortium of the rich together to build a replacement station ... and I know of several in the New York area who, together, could arrange for it ... you might get somewhere. Good luck again using an 'intelligence and taste' argument to get them to allocate their money to that, though -- although I suspect Ira Rennert at his Fairfield peak could have set it up if you gave him naming rights on it.
Shock Control The decisionmakers in our current dystopian society probably lack the intelligence and taste to rebuild the old station.
A gal can dream...
Shock Control charlie hebdo Someplace else? Such as? Stop trying to recreate the past. Build a modern, light, airy structure that has good access and egress. Sorry, but I love architecture at least as much as I love trains, if not moreso. If Europe can rebuild structures destroyed by the Nazis, then the US should be able to rebuild an architectural marvel destroyed by ignorance and short-sightedness.
Rebuilding an unpleasant descent into the bowels of (?) which was topped by a lame attempt at copying the Theme Di Caracalla seems like a silly idea unless your notion of an architectural marvel is analogous to an exhibition of paint-by-the-numbers Rembrandt knockoffs.
BTW, I think you would find a good deal of the architecture destroyed in WWII Europe was by the Allies.
Penn Station, one of the busiest transportation hubs in the U.S., is undergoing a massive transformation from its easternmost edge at 7th Avenue with East End Gateway to its westernmost edge at 9th Avenue with Moynihan Train Hall.
Work on the new East End Gateway has been underway since September. When completed, customers will enjoy a new entrance pavilion that will dramatically improve customer flow and introduce natural light into the station environment. While work is underway, a protective construction shield has been installed above the LIRR Concourse so overhead work can be done safely while customers traverse the concourse; and columns have been wrapped with information signage and track numbers have been demarcated with new signs so customer information continues to be widely available.
On top of that, even more work is going on behind the scenes to prepare for major construction starting in early 2020. Outside on 33rd Street, utilities were relocated to clear the way for the new entrance. Later this month, the northern wall (where the Duane Reade used to be), will be pushed back 27 feet! This move will open up more pedestrian space as work moves out into the concourse area to build new escalators and stairs. Construction of a Public Information Center (PIC) is underway to provide information to LIRR customers and anyone interested in the project. When it’s done, stop by for a look at the history of the LIRR at Penn Station — and where we’re headed in the future!
The new East End Gateway will change the landscape of 7th Avenue and 33rd Street. Mechanical and structural work for the new East End Gateway entrance is underway – work on the platform level will support the escalator above on the Entry Hall level.
The overall Penn Station redevelopment master plan continues to move forward and will fully transform the LIRR Concourse into a modern, world-class transportation hub. For more information and construction photos, please visit the East End Gateway and LIRR Concourse project page on AModernLI.com.
Want to receive the latest project information in your inbox? Subscribe to future project updates by joining our mailing list.
My problem with the Penn Station part of the 5.6 billion is that it leaves you still scuttling a large part of the way like a rat, albeit a more brightly lit one.
I see from the Governor's office that New York is going to pay for Gateway out of their $100 billion infrastructure plan. Can't believe I missed it, and so glad I can trust Cuomo to do the right thing regarding railroads. (I understood that New York was also going to pay for renovating the ex-PRR tunnels once Gateway is done! What selfless and generous people!
charlie hebdo Shock Control charlie hebdo Someplace else? Such as? Stop trying to recreate the past. Build a modern, light, airy structure that has good access and egress. Sorry, but I love architecture at least as much as I love trains, if not moreso. If Europe can rebuild structures destroyed by the Nazis, then the US should be able to rebuild an architectural marvel destroyed by ignorance and short-sightedness. Rebuilding an unpleasant descent into the bowels of (?) which was topped by a lame attempt at copying the Theme Di Caracalla seems like a silly idea unless your notion of an architectural marvel is analogous to an exhibition of paint-by-the-numbers Rembrandt knockoffs. BTW, I think you would find a good deal of the architecture destroyed in WWII Europe was by the Allies.
That is why blueprints exist.
You seem to have no real knowledge of that.
charlie hebdo You seem to have no real knowledge of that.
An architectural design is like an orchestral score. It exists on paper, and the execution of the idea comes later. We can argue about how well or poorly the idea is executed.
If a symphony can be played twice, a structure can be built twice.
You miss the point. As I and OM and others have said, the old Penn Station was nothing special architecturally and hardly worth restoring, unless you are one of those who likes all the faux architecture as in Las Vegas.
charlie hebdo You miss the point. As I and OM and others have said, the old Penn Station was nothing special architecturally and hardly worth restoring, unless you are one of those who likes all the faux architecture as in Las Vegas.
I am flattered that you think my opinion is that important, but this may be a good time to remind everyone that I did not come up with the idea of rebuilding Penn Station. I simply asked about the status of the movement, which, by the way, includes the backing of architects.
You flatter yourself.
Be kind.
How about a compromise? A full-size Pennsylvania Station reconstruction wouldn't be practical, nor possibly even necessary. Say a half-size or even quarter-size, just enough to get the job done but not taking up as much block space? Good enough to give everyone a taste of what was?
I see some are referring to the old Penn Station as a "smelly white elephant." If that was the case why the outrage at the time (and lingering still) of its destruction?
Personally, I think Penn Station had to die so Grand Central could live. Penn Station's demolition was a hell of a wake-up call! If one went, so could the other.
charlie hebdo You flatter yourself.
Thank you. It makes me happy to know that you care.
Flintlock76Personally, I think Penn Station had to die so Grand Central could live. Penn Station's demolition was a hell of a wake-up call! If one went, so could the other.
It is credited - correctly or incorrectly - with sparking the historic preservation movement in the US.
Flintlock76How about a compromise? A full-size Pennsylvania Station reconstruction wouldn't be practical, nor possibly even necessary. Say a half-size or even quarter-size, just enough to get the job done but not taking up as much block space? Good enough to give everyone a taste of what was?
I dunno. They built that big station thing in Rensselaer, NY. Supposed to have shops and a base station for a chair lift across the Hudson (among other crazy things), and none of it ever really materialized. A monument to excess it seems.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmannSupposed to have shops and a base station for a chair lift across the Hudson (among other crazy things)...
It's not really that stupid; it's gondolas (I think at least partially open-sided) in a cable-car type system. And it appears to have been progressing nicely as late as October 2019.
Whether this idea was ginned up in a haze of marijuana smoke, as the Welfare Island cablecar was, I can't say; it is certainly more of a mainstream attraction than, say, the Mist Rider setup. It may be amusing to see if commuters from the west shore use it; who would have thought that the ferry at Beacon would have been kept this long? If this is one of those cable systems that attaches and detaches cars, a few well-heeled commuters could spring for a private bar 'car' to cross the Hudson in enclosed air-conditioned comfort and perhaps then to down a few brews on shore power on arrival. Sure is less cost and less trouble than private club cars on subsidized passenger trains now, and less political fallout too!
Shock ControlIt is credited - correctly or incorrectly - with sparking the historic preservation movement in the US.
What you should have said is 'directly or indirectly' -- with the emphasis on indirectly.
All the real action with historic preservation was in the Save Grand Central effort. Admittedly the demolition of Penn Station was a wake-up call to put teeth into laws for 'the future' that applied when we went to DC to lobby the Supreme Court, but note that nobody cared while Penn Station came down, or made any really perceptible delay in the schedule.
One interesting difference was that the project threatening Grand Central in the late '70s was NOT a demolition of significant parts of the station, and was (for the time) remarkably sensitive to keeping a great deal of the major 'historic fabric'. That was Breuer's second proposal. Even so, it was enough of a threat to mobilize everyone necessary to organize to save GCT.
It did not help in 1963 that the Pennsylvania, unmerged, was still at least nominally a for-profit company seeking best returns on its assets. The same could have been said about the Hyperboloid project, which may well have resulted in a kind of 'incinerated house' footprint of the GCT headhouse around its base -- I believe the major thing that stopped that was Young's suicide, not any meaningful community opposition at the time. Even in the late '70s you'd find morons claiming that Breuer's tower would 'destroy the view down Park Avenue' ... perhaps forgetting about this little thing called the Pan Am building that had already been there since not long after the Hyperboloid's time.
Flintlock76A full-size Pennsylvania Station reconstruction wouldn't be practical, nor possibly even necessary. Say a half-size or even quarter-size, just enough to get the job done but not taking up as much block space? Good enough to give everyone a taste of what was?
Wayne ... it's not the same. You'll have to put a sign like the bars at Disneyland on the entrances saying 'you must be at least this short to enter this attraction'.
At that rate, it would be better to build a T scale replica, and build nanobots with addressable cameras that would allow 'telepresence' through the "station" right down to waiting trains. With the money you save you could pipe blue-electricity and mold/piss smells into the VR headsets to further enlargen the experience. Put it in a glass case like the marble machine that used to grace the 41st St. bus terminal and make it an Internet attraction -- it would assuredly be more popular and more fun than any static re-creation of a station without any trains.
Teleferiques, cable-cars, arial tramways, whatever you call them, have proven to be practical transportation devices. We have one in Israel, pretty much modeled on the French one, Grenoble's, from the seasaide beach to a moutain resort hotel and restaurant, south of Haifa, the "Rakball.". I see no reason why a trans-Hudson River one would not be practical and a break-even or better on fares and operational expensses. For their particular use, they are a useful alternative to a funicular in climbing mountains, and crossing rivers, and the one that served Governors Island was certainly practical while it operated. Today, the island, now Roosevelt Island, has a subway stop, so the arial tramway is not necessary and cannot compete with the more frequent service and the city-wide distrbution of the subway system.
Regarding Penn Station, let's see how the Monyhan Station conversion of the old Farley Post Office works out. Maybe it will turn out to be a worthy successor to the old Penn Station at its best, a worthy gateway comparible to the restored and magnificent Grand Central Terminal.
Again, I was really suprised at the beautiful station the Transit Authority has provided at Stillwell Avenue, Coney Island.
And the new World Center complex, including the No. 1's Courtland Street Station, seems like an inspired architectural work.
And they seem to be doing the right job with Times Square and the 42nd Street Shuttle.
Overmod What you should have said is 'directly or indirectly' -- with the emphasis on indirectly...
What you should have said is 'directly or indirectly' -- with the emphasis on indirectly...
Thank you for helping me with the English language. I'm still learning.
The cable car system sounds interesting. Particularly with its connection with the railway station. Would the other end connect to the Capitol complex? Always thought that looked like out of a SciFi movie.
The people building the cable system say it will be about a mile long, highest tower point about 133' above terrain, ending 'downtown near the Times Union Center'. I believe the online full newspaper article (accessible at the end of the piece I linked) has something like 59 illustrations, and some of those will show renderings that people who know Albany can appreciate.
Overmod The people building the cable system say it will be about a mile long, highest tower point about 133' above terrain, ending 'downtown near the Times Union Center'. I believe the online full newspaper article (accessible at the end of the piece I linked) has something like 59 illustrations, and some of those will show renderings that people who know Albany can appreciate.
It would be a lot more interesting and much less expensive if Amtrak were to build a giant Zip line from Rennselaer station, over the Hudson, and then into downtown Albany somewhere (and back...why not?). Imagine legislators, businessmen and tourists taking a fast, eco-friendly zip line ride, especially in the winter! Finally, transportation for millenials! And no food, either...Mr. Anderson ought to love that.
Cable cars? I don't know, cable cars have made me nervous ever since I saw "The Crawling Eye" as a kid. (Good ol' Channel 9, WOR, out of New York!)
"Where Eagles Dare" didn't help either.
Oh, "Shock Control," love that "call-sign" by the way, I see you didn't do a biography, I wanted to find out more about you, but that's OK.
Anyway, don't be put off by the grumpy old men on the Forum. I for one am interested in what you have to say. I'm interested in what everyone has to say for that matter.
I'll tell you, I've seen less grumpy old men in nursing homes! Maybe there's more of us here because dementia hasn't caught up with us yet?
Overmod I believe the online full newspaper article (accessible at the end of the piece I linked) has something like 59 illustrations, and some of those will show renderings that people who know Albany can appreciate.
Maybe they can run it to the old freezer warehouse that is going to be turned into... (flips through articles to see what the hair-brained proposition is *this* month)
Don't even have a hockey team to see anymore.
Flintlock76 I'll tell you, I've seen less grumpy old men in nursing homes!
Shock Control If a symphony can be played twice, a structure can be built twice.
The first nontrivial point being the six-odd orders of magnitude difference in the costs to do so.
The second being whether symphony-goers care to hear the piece played twice if they have to pay for it ... or anyone else cares to be a patron.
The argument whether the piece deserves to be played twice, which I seem to have been grandfathered into, only applies after all the 'realization stuff' has been covered.
I wouldn't actually mind if someone did try rebuilding Penn Station as a replica. As I said, I know people that can do it, and do it sensitively and well. But we have no need to start before you'uns put your money or effort where your mouths and keyboards are and show you can make it happen. I'd suspect everyone else in a position to do the same will give you a similar answer.
Keep in mind that we had a bunch of folks who swore up and down that no one could build a working T1. Observe how this changed... and why. Then 'go and do thou likewise'
Overmod It's not really that stupid; it's gondolas (I think at least partially open-sided) in a cable-car type system. And it appears to have been progressing nicely as late as October 2019.
The artist's rendering in the linked article has the gondola doors on the wrong side. Nevertheless, gondolas are getting to be used more as transit. Ski areas used early models to get skiers up the slope, but modern detachable versions are being used more and more as shuttles between parking lots, base areas, and resort areas. Gondolas can be added and removed as traffic warrents. They can change directions, and can have any number of intermediate stops.
OvermodThe first nontrivial point being the six-odd orders of magnitude difference in the costs to do so.
You've apparently never worked for an orchestra! In the US, many struggle to pay the light bill for their administrative offices!
I just remembered!
About 20 years ago we rode the Royal Gorge cable car attraction out in Colorado.
About half-way across the Gorge the docent in the car addressed us thusly...
"To answer the question nobody's asked, 'How far are we above the river?', the answer is, eight seconds!"
Just thought I'd bring that up! Looky...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkbZNJu3KiI
Shock Control Overmod The first nontrivial point being the six-odd orders of magnitude difference in the costs to do so. You've apparently never worked for an orchestra! In the US, many struggle to pay the light bill for their administrative offices!
Overmod The first nontrivial point being the six-odd orders of magnitude difference in the costs to do so.
Apparently neither have you. The world-class Chicago Symphony Orchestra had total operating expenses in fiscal year ending June 30, 2018 of $73.7 million with a loss of $911,000. Obviously the rebuild of Penn Station would be far more.
Shock Control Overmod The first nontrivial point being the six-odd orders of magnitude difference in the costs to do so.
Flintlock76"To answer the question nobody's asked, 'How far are we above the river?', the answer is, eight seconds!"
As a naive young teenager, I once asked my dad, a US Navy WW2 vet, if he had ever been afraid of drowning or having his ship (battleship Pennsylvania BB-38) lost way out there on the Pacific Ocean.
"Hell, no," he snorted. Then with a grin he said, "After all, the nearest land is always only about five miles away." Before I could say What do you mean? he added, "straight down."
charlie hebdoApparently neither have you.
I have.
NKP guy Flintlock76 "To answer the question nobody's asked, 'How far are we above the river?', the answer is, eight seconds!" As a naive young teenager, I once asked my dad, a US Navy WW2 vet, if he had ever been afraid of drowning or having his ship (battleship Pennsylvania BB-38) lost way out there on the Pacific Ocean. "Hell, no," he snorted. Then with a grin he said, "After all, the nearest land is always only about five miles away." Before I could say What do you mean? he added, "straight down."
Flintlock76 "To answer the question nobody's asked, 'How far are we above the river?', the answer is, eight seconds!"
NKP, years back I worked with a man who was a WW2 carrier veteran, the USS Lexington, to be exact.
He told me something similar, "Until you've see guys work to save a ship, you've never seen guys work!"
"When the nearest land is two miles straight down, what else are you gonna do?"
SC: You may have worked at one but you clearly don't know anything about the costs, which several of us laid out, in my case the operating expense of a large symphony orchestra. The cost to rebuild authentically the old Penn monstrosity dwarfs any symphony budget. Further, your analogy of orchestral works and a building is flawed. One is an attempt at a work of art; the other is performance art, designed to be played an indefinite number of times.
See if you can find a private fund willing to undertake your project. Amtrak and government are not going to waste taxpayer dollars on a project of such dubious aesthetics.
Flintlock76NKP, years back I worked with a man who was a WW2 carrier veteran, the USS Lexington, to be exact. He told me something similar, "Until you've see guys work to save a ship, you've never seen guys work!" "When the nearest land is two miles straight down, what else are you gonna do?"
Flintlock, weren't those guys, and their gals, one hell of a generation?
NKP guy Flintlock76 NKP, years back I worked with a man who was a WW2 carrier veteran, the USS Lexington, to be exact. He told me something similar, "Until you've see guys work to save a ship, you've never seen guys work!" "When the nearest land is two miles straight down, what else are you gonna do?" Flintlock, weren't those guys, and their gals, one hell of a generation?
Flintlock76 NKP, years back I worked with a man who was a WW2 carrier veteran, the USS Lexington, to be exact. He told me something similar, "Until you've see guys work to save a ship, you've never seen guys work!" "When the nearest land is two miles straight down, what else are you gonna do?"
And how! And believe me, I mean absolutely no insult to the kids serving in uniform now, they're priceless, but in my opinion those sailors and Marines we had during WW2 were the BEST naval service we ever had. Or anyone ever had. Bar none.
And the real miracle is how quickly and how well it was built! Think about it. Kids who a year before didn't know port from starboard, or a mainmast from a scupper, or what end of a Browning 1917 water-cooled did what, or an M-1 from an M&M, were turned into the most formidable fighting force the world has ever seen!
And now we're losing them, more each year. It has to happen of course, time marches on, but it doesn't make it any easier.
My dad served on the USS Wilhoite, a destroyer escort. Both theaters. He would talk about being in the North Atlantic during a winter storm. Harrowing. In their later years, the shipmates would reunite each year. Such a strong bond among them. Something to witness!
charlie hebdoSee if you can find a private fund willing to undertake your project.
Once again, let this serve as a friendly reminder that this is not MY project: It is an existing project, the proponents of which include professional architects. I happen to support THEIR project, and merely asked about the status.
I don't understand why so many participants here are bent out of shape because there is someone on the interwebz who supports a project that they don't agree with. I am not invalidating anyone else's views, but a few here seem to be invalidating mine. The entire world does not share your views.
Just to stick a cork or a fork in the to-and-fro part of this 'discussion': for some reason no one has actually posted information or links to the 'project' in question yet. The master plan (which has links to other collateral and contact information for the principals, is here,
https://www.rebuildpennstation.org/master-plan
and a relatively recent article, from what in retrospect is a fairly obvious source, is here (from August 2019)
(The embedded links may show up properly once IT stops playing with its pacifier or whatever)
I suspect Mr. Cameron of Atelier would be the best real source for answers to any real, hard questions regarding the actuality of funding or political action being taken to advance this project; he would certainly be a likely if not first point of contact for anyone actually interested in participating. Much of a ongoing detail discussion in a forum like this is not likely to be particularly gainful without understanding the actual details of the plan itself.
(Let me add, with all of love, that the essential point of my 'six orders of magnitude' was intended strictly rhetorically, and any further discussion of cost, or funding, should refer directly to details or numbers in the published collateral or obtained directly from people with some reasonable authority to 'know stuff' who are willing to speak from the inside on what's actually being done.)
Shock Control charlie hebdo See if you can find a private fund willing to undertake your project. Once again, let this serve as a friendly reminder that this is not MY project: It is an existing project, the proponents of which include professional architects. I happen to support THEIR project, and merely asked about the status. I don't understand why so many participants here are bent out of shape because there is someone on the interwebz who supports a project that they don't agree with. I am not invalidating anyone else's views, but a few here seem to be invalidating mine. The entire world does not share your views.
charlie hebdo See if you can find a private fund willing to undertake your project.
It's called a discussion. Just because not everyone agrees with this "proposal" doesn't mean we are "bent out of (or into) shape." I don't know your age or situation, but you are starting to sound like some student who insists on "safe zones" on campus so he doesn't have to hear ideas he doesn't like. I happen to believe in free speech.
charlie hebdoIt's called a discussion. Just because not everyone agrees with this "proposal" doesn't mean we are "bent out of (or into) shape." I don't know your age or situation, but you are starting to sound like some student who insists on "safe zones" on campus so he doesn't have to hear ideas he doesn't like. I happen to believe in free speech.
I fully respect your right to want one thing from a future Penn Station, just as I'm sure you respect mine, given that we both believe in free speech and, presumably, freedom of thought. I'm not attempting to change your mind, and you are clearly incapable of changing mine.
So let's accept the fact that you and I have different visions for the future of Penn Station, and then maybe we can watch some Hallmark Christmas movies together and drink some hot cocoa.
Shock ControlSo let's accept the fact that you and I have different visions for the future of Penn Station, and then maybe we can watch some Hallmark Christmas movies together and drink some hot cocoa.
I support the new Penn Station project. Look you would understand Charlie Hebdo and his grumpy opinions better if you lived next to the FIB's for a while.
I mean look what Chicago has done after the preservation to Grand Central Terminal in NYC. Tore down Northwestern Station for a laughably ugly office tower. Tore down LaSalle Street Station. Attempted to tear down Dearborn Street Station but instead attempted to turn it into a retail mall with pretty crappy results. Tore down IC Central Station, the list goes on and on. I think Chicago Union Station is the last and if METRA had it's way it would have been torn down as well. Thank goodness they never got their hands on it. METRA still wants to sell off Chicago Union Station for demo for the money it can pocket on the immediate sale but Amtrak is standing in it's way currently with it's redevelopment plans and METRA is not interested in those or paying higher fees for a redeveloped CUS.
CMStPnPI support the new Penn Station project. Look you would understand Charlie Hebdo and his grumpy opinions better if you lived next to the FIB's for a while.
CMStPnP never let facts stand in the way of his biased and/or contrafactual opinions, like those concerning Metra, Talgo, Illinois, Chicago commuters, German Rail, et al.. Since CUS is owned by Amtrak, it would be pretty hard for Metra to sell it.
Shock Control CMStPnP I support the new Penn Station project. Look you would understand Charlie Hebdo and his grumpy opinions better if you lived next to the FIB's for a while.
CMStPnP I support the new Penn Station project. Look you would understand Charlie Hebdo and his grumpy opinions better if you lived next to the FIB's for a while.
Right, hide behind an acronym for a pretty vile statement about Illinoisans. Without our tourism bucks spent in Dairyland, WI would be a disaster.
charlie hebdoSince CUS is owned by Amtrak, it would be pretty hard for Metra to sell it.
That's silly. The Brooklyn Bridge is much bigger than CUS and people have been selling it for well over a century! The problem comes when the buyer wants to make money out of their investment ... and that's not likely to ever characterize CUS again...
Can we please dispense with the FIB trolling, though? Aside from being coarse on a potentially family-friendly forum, it's an explicit violation of the published TOS.
Wow. And people from New York City, North Jersey, and Philadelphia think they have it rough when the year-round residents of the Jersey Shore call them "bennys" and "shoobies."
Could be worse.
Flintlock76Wow. And people from New York City, North Jersey, and Philadelphia think they have it rough when the year-round residents of the Jersey Shore call them "bennys" and "shoobies."
That's because it's so silly there's no insult when one of those folks uses it. That is, unless you deserve it, and then you deserve it.
The Benny thing is a bit like the Sabine being the dividing line between Cajuns to the south and Coonas... well, I can't really say it in full ... north of there. If you're from north of the Driscoll Bridge you're suspect... but then again, you have to act arrogant like a New Yorker, but not actually be a New Yorker to qualify. Does the "Ben" refer to flashing hundreds, or does it refer to Bayonne, Elizabeth, Newark, or is it obliquely anti-Semitic? I don't know but I certainly don't want to be one! Shoobies are for day-tripper summer people who waltz in and leave the remnants of their shoebox lunch on the beach. You can see why locals don't appreciate it; I suspect there's more than a little of Stephen King's 'summer people' in there...
Oh, PS, as was mentioned to me more than once, people who say 'down da shore' are more often Bennies then locals ...
Now, when they get into "Poindexter" country, that gets more personal...
IS there some generic term for Jerseyites outside Jersey? Seems like just using Jersey, as in "Jersey driver!!" is enough to get it into the language as an expression. Nobody calls 'Massachusetts driver' as an insult, even though in most cases it is or perhaps ought to be. Massachusetts notably used to have green lettering and red lettering on their plates, with the red denoting people with too many 'points on their record'. I told my daughter this story, and she remarked to me when we went to Boston over the summer that now, all Massachusetts plates are red.
Luckily, I don't know what FIB means. Please don't tell me.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Paul of Covington Luckily, I don't know what FIB means. Please don't tell me.
Urban Dictionary will clue you in.
Overmod charlie hebdo Since CUS is owned by Amtrak, it would be pretty hard for Metra to sell it. That's silly. The Brooklyn Bridge is much bigger than CUS and people have been selling it for well over a century! The problem comes when the buyer wants to make money out of their investment ... and that's not likely to ever characterize CUS again... Can we please dispense with the FIB trolling, though? Aside from being coarse on a potentially family-friendly forum, it's an explicit violation of the published TOS.
charlie hebdo Since CUS is owned by Amtrak, it would be pretty hard for Metra to sell it.
I mentioned the facts of who owns CUS because the Milwaukee Road guy once again got it wrong. As to his use of a vulgarity, take it up with him, not me. Your attempt to equate a vulgarity (that clearly violates K-bach's terms) with silly, disparaging term used by Jersey Shore folks on folks from Manhattan is pretty far off the mark.
charlie hebdoYour attempt to equate a vulgarity (that clearly violates K-bach's terms) with silly, disparaging term used by Jersey Shore folks on folks from Manhattan is pretty far off the mark.
My comments about bennies and shoobies (which are from locals, not just the sort of Jersey Shore show denizens it's so easy for cultured Chicagoites to contemptuously despise*) are in the context of Wayne's remark, which in part emphasized implicitly how much worse "FIB" was than the insult terms used for folks from my part of New Jersey. It was humor, something more than occasionally lost on the overserious or overly touchy, and nothing more than that. Clearly I did not equate the use of "FIB" with those words; in fact, I clearly requested that it no longer be used as a patent violation of the published language in the TOS. Perhaps you did not read that far... oh wait, did you think
Can we please dispense with the FIB trolling, though?
was aimed in any way at you? I apologize for even leaving that impression. I admire your restraint in not calling out the multiple posters using that term directly, and it was to them, and others who might want to pile on with the baiting, that the comment was addressed.
(* Lest I be mistaken for a city snob, I don't much care for that bunch's ways either)
What I know is Chicagoans and Door County, Wi. merchants have had a mutualistic simbiotic relationship. C's think they're getting steals at the expense of the DC merchants. DC M's think they're making out like bandits at the expense of the C's.
Overmod charlie hebdo Your attempt to equate a vulgarity (that clearly violates K-bach's terms) with silly, disparaging term used by Jersey Shore folks on folks from Manhattan is pretty far off the mark. You might at least think about self-medicating for paranoia. I, at least, am not out to get you. My comments about bennies and shoobies (which are from locals, not just the sort of Jersey Shore show denizens it's so easy for cultured Chicagoites to contemptuously despise) are in the context of Wayne's remark, which in part emphasized implicitly how much worse "FIB" was than the insult terms used for folks from my part of New Jersey. It was humor, something more than occasionally lost on the overserious or overly touchy, and nothing more than that. Clearly I did not equate the use of "FIB" with those words; in fact, I clearly requested that it no longer be used as a patent violation of the published language in the TOS. Perhaps you did not read that far... oh wait, did you think Can we please dispense with the FIB trolling, though? was aimed in any way at you? I apologize for even leaving that impression. I admire your restraint in not calling out the multiple posters using that term directly, and it was to them, and others who might want to pile on with the baiting, that the comment was addressed.
charlie hebdo Your attempt to equate a vulgarity (that clearly violates K-bach's terms) with silly, disparaging term used by Jersey Shore folks on folks from Manhattan is pretty far off the mark.
You might at least think about self-medicating for paranoia. I, at least, am not out to get you.
My comments about bennies and shoobies (which are from locals, not just the sort of Jersey Shore show denizens it's so easy for cultured Chicagoites to contemptuously despise) are in the context of Wayne's remark, which in part emphasized implicitly how much worse "FIB" was than the insult terms used for folks from my part of New Jersey. It was humor, something more than occasionally lost on the overserious or overly touchy, and nothing more than that. Clearly I did not equate the use of "FIB" with those words; in fact, I clearly requested that it no longer be used as a patent violation of the published language in the TOS. Perhaps you did not read that far... oh wait, did you think
Agree. I just do not want to see such a vile insult in any way equated with fun terms like Bennies. However, since that term now is seen as anti-Semitic, we should refrain from using it.
My main point about his hatred for Chicago causing him to make contrafactual statements stands.
Although you were lamely attempting sarcasm, paranoia is not a joke, nor is telling someone to take meds.
One last thing and I'll let everyone get back to the real topic.
"The origin of the terms 'benny' and 'shoobie' are lost in the mysteries of time..."
Seriously, it's all conjecture. "Benny" is supposed to originate from an amalgam of Bergen County, Essex County, Newark, and New York City. "Shoobie" is supposedly from the habit of Philadelphia residents visiting the Shore with lunches packed in shoeboxes.
The plain fact of the matter is no-one really knows, and the most diligent research can't uncover the origins.
Maybe it's one of those mysteries of the universe we're not meant to know?
Benny and Shoobie are terms I've never heard before until I read this thread. It's always interesting to learn regional slang which is like professional slang. Isn't foamer professional slang? Here in Toronto, we used to call the suburban kids who came downtown to drink and make fools of themselves "the PMS kids," for Pickering, Mississauga and Scarborough, the residences of such kids who on Friday and Saturday nights get arrested for public drunkeness and other behaviours. In London, saying "Essex people" refers pretty much to the same type of suburban drunken yobs.
charlie hebdoAlthough you were lamely attempting sarcasm, paranoia is not a joke, nor is telling someone to take meds.
That's right, of course.
The 'joke' was in all the people who seemed to be piling on to the subject of FIBs, referencing the older joke (using the popular idea of paranoia) about 'just because you're paranoid doesn't necessarily mean they're NOT all out to get you'.
It's not intended to make fun of clinical schizophrenia or paranoia, and the medicine claim was not meant seriously in any way, but I retract it anyway as needlessly insensitive (and other reasons not needing listing).
Agreed!!
METRA has already launched the Chicago Machine and a heavy Federal based political campaign at the Congressional level to force Amtrak to sell or turn over CUS. No secret why, even Amtrak knows the ulterior motive. METRA is using the argument that it can better control the train dispatching but it's really after getting the money for the real estate as it does not want to pay increased fees for using the station to Amtrak or any other owner. Amtrak even alluded to METRA being a deadbeat tenant and not paying it's share of the upkeep for CUS in the past.
Flintlock76Maybe it's one of those mysteries of the universe
Many things in Jersey are Things Mankind was Not Meant to Know...
That is so true- While driving on the Turnpike near Elizabeth, Isaac Asimov's wife called it "Mordor."
The Paramus Mall! Aackk!
54light15That is so true- While driving on the Turnpike near Elizabeth, Isaac Asimov's wife called it "Mordor."
Very likely Bayway. It qualifies.
There was an article in New Jersey magazine in the latter half of the '70s that said something like "we built an industrial corridor along the major highways so out-of-staters would keep going as fast as possible and not think about invading the many good parts of the state to ruin them".
It does have to be said, though, that even at its worst we never set the Raritan on fire...
OvermodThere was an article in New Jersey magazine in the latter half of the '70s that said something like "we built an industrial corridor along the major highways so out-of-staters would keep going as fast as possible and not think about invading the many good parts of the state to ruin them".
Having made mistaken turns off the Interstate - you play hell in trying to back track and get back on the Interstate in your intended direction of travel. I think I traveled about 10 miles to get back to the point where I made the mistake and return to my intended travel path.
BaltACDHaving made mistaken turns off the Interstate - you play hell in trying to back track and get back on the Interstate in your intended direction of travel. I think I traveled about 10 miles to get back to the point where I made the mistake and return to my intended travel path.
That's a clever way to reinforce the idea that you won't come back!
Overmod BaltACD Having made mistaken turns off the Interstate - you play hell in trying to back track and get back on the Interstate in your intended direction of travel. I think I traveled about 10 miles to get back to the point where I made the mistake and return to my intended travel path. That's a clever way to reinforce the idea that you won't come back!
BaltACD Having made mistaken turns off the Interstate - you play hell in trying to back track and get back on the Interstate in your intended direction of travel. I think I traveled about 10 miles to get back to the point where I made the mistake and return to my intended travel path.
I didn't WANT to be there in the first place, however, events conspired to force my presence.
BaltACDI didn't WANT to be there in the first place,
And now even more than before! See? It works!
I took my now ex-wife to the Paramus Mall. Once. I blame it on the jug handles. I didn't think I'd ever get home, but you learn you have to turn right in order to turn left. Jeez!
Aired last night. Quite good and very interesting
https://www.thirteen.org/metrofocus/2019/12/metrofocus-august-27-2019/
CMStPnP Shock Control So let's accept the fact that you and I have different visions for the future of Penn Station, and then maybe we can watch some Hallmark Christmas movies together and drink some hot cocoa. I think Chicago Union Station is the last and if METRA had it's way it would have been torn down as well. Thank goodness they never got their hands on it. METRA still wants to sell off Chicago Union Station for demo for the money it can pocket on the immediate sale but Amtrak is standing in it's way currently with it's redevelopment plans and METRA is not interested in those or paying higher fees for a redeveloped CUS.
Shock Control So let's accept the fact that you and I have different visions for the future of Penn Station, and then maybe we can watch some Hallmark Christmas movies together and drink some hot cocoa.
I think Chicago Union Station is the last and if METRA had it's way it would have been torn down as well. Thank goodness they never got their hands on it. METRA still wants to sell off Chicago Union Station for demo for the money it can pocket on the immediate sale but Amtrak is standing in it's way currently with it's redevelopment plans and METRA is not interested in those or paying higher fees for a redeveloped CUS.
You seem to be mistaken with who wants to build on top of CUS.
https://www.chicagoarchitecture.org/2019/12/24/the-union-station-tower-is-finally-real/?fbclid=IwAR0RXUx_aoxOE8QBBiIAWAp1YdrcctF-QtFK1I0IYwDDutZqzmgBIYPffdo
"For as long as anyone can remember, it’s been lots of discussion but no digging in the West Loop where Amtrak has wanted to add a skyscraper to the Union Station complex since before Amtrak was a thing. In the last 15 years, we’ve seen at least three different plans for Amtrak skyscrapers that simply never got off the ground. But that has finally changed."
An "expensive model collector"
n012944You seem to be mistaken with who wants to build on top of CUS.
Unless I'm mistaken too, the BMO Tower isn't going 'on top of CUS' in the sense he meant. The rendering clearly shows it across the street, doesn't it?
It would be like saying that the Pan Am building was built on top of GCT because it's over the air rights to the ends of the platforms. Definitely not the same as the 23-story 'original' to go over the waiting room, or even Breuer's little boxes.
I'm glad you posted this, because I doubt I'd have come across either the greenlighted BMO, or some of the other Goettsch projects referenced in the link, without your having done so. Good to see the language of pilotis is still alive, even if no more particularly 'well' than when Corb used it.
It's in the next block south of CUS, between Jackson and Van Burn.
n012944I missed the location. CUS is even in the background of some of the pictures. Duh.
Renderings aren't always clear but the map is. Anyway the OP hates Metra so much for inconviencing him a few times that he thinks Metra wants to sell CUS and tear it down, when, of course, Amtrak is the owner.
IMO The clearances at CHI US are a real impediment not only to Amtrak but METRA as well. If new cars for METRA were not height limited then a taller car could be the same as some commuter trains in Europe.
The most recent Metra gallery cars are 15' 10 13/32" tall.
Bombardier bilevels are 15' 11" tall. Do you think the current clearances are so tight that an additional 17/32" would be a problem?
The Siemens Viaggio Twin is about 15' 1.1" (4600 mm).
blue streak 1The clearances at CHI US are a real impediment not only to Amtrak but METRA as well.
Strange that in the city where whole neighborhoods and large buildings were being raised seamlessly before the Civil War -- in part by George Pullman -- nobody can figure out how to increase the overhead clearances by any means.
They could start in the same way we widen streets here: require any new construction ... like that boring Bank of Montreal thing ... to have vertical clearances suitable for proper double-deck and high-level cars plus accommodation for 50kV catenary. Then set about lifting other structures ... say, with a combination of careful seismometry and computer-coordinated jacking ... as you renovate other parts of the rail infrastructure.
Personally, I believe that step alone does quite a bit of future-proofing what Chicago uses for heavy rail commuter service, especially on lines that have already been cleared for double-stack freight running.
Overmod blue streak 1 The clearances at CHI US are a real impediment not only to Amtrak but METRA as well. Strange that in the city where whole neighborhoods and large buildings were being raised seamlessly before the Civil War -- in part by George Pullman -- nobody can figure out how to increase the overhead clearances by any means. They could start in the same way we widen streets here: require any new construction ... like that boring Bank of Montreal thing ... to have vertical clearances suitable for proper double-deck and high-level cars plus accommodation for 50kV catenary. Then set about lifting other structures ... say, with a combination of careful seismometry and computer-coordinated jacking ... as you renovate other parts of the rail infrastructure. Personally, I believe that step alone does quite a bit of future-proofing what Chicago uses for heavy rail commuter service, especially on lines that have already been cleared for double-stack freight running.
blue streak 1 The clearances at CHI US are a real impediment not only to Amtrak but METRA as well.
When bi-levels started running on the C&NW In the late 1950s, the Bush train sheds were lifted higher by using jacks to lift them higher for clearances. This may have happened at CUS also.
Note the heights of various bi-levels.
charlie hebdoThe most recent Metra gallery cars are 15' 10 13/32" tall. Bombardier bilevels are 15' 11" tall. Do you think the current clearances are so tight that an additional 17/32" would be a problem? The Siemens Viaggio Twin is about 15' 1.1" (4600 mm).
Several decades ago the B&O had a Surfacing Gang working on what CSX calls the Philadelphia Sub between Baltimore and Philadelphia. Nobody thought much about it, that is until the Trailer Jet arrived Philadelphia with the roofs of the 17'3" trailers ripped back right at the top jont of the roof to the trailer side. Half a inch is half a inch.
But the Siemens cars are what are being considered. I notice you conveniently omitted to say what the Philly clearance was so you could utter another in your endless supply of cliches and hackneyed quips.
charlie hebdoBut the Siemens cars are what are being considered. I notice you conveniently omitted to say what the Philly clearance was so you could utter another in your endless supply of cliches and hackneyed quips.
I think part of what he's noting 'between the lines' is that there's a reason for that Chicago height to be measured in 32nds, and that even a fractional inch might cause an 'interference' (with fairly dramatic results).
On the other hand, absolute vertical clearance for bilevels is likely complicated both by load weight and by sway at the top edges of the clearance diagram due to the relatively high (and presumably 'top-heavy' when loaded) carbodies. In some cases the clearance is measured relative to a curved roof ... I thought at least part of the Trailer-Jet incident Balt mentioned was due to 'square corners' more than to nominal ride height; you see this in the Philistine tunnel conversions to double-stack clearance that 'notch out the corners' just enough to clear at appropriate speed...
Are the Siemens Viaggios being considered 'as built'? To me, they seemed relatively cramped upstairs for American service...
Overmod charlie hebdo But the Siemens cars are what are being considered. I notice you conveniently omitted to say what the Philly clearance was so you could utter another in your endless supply of cliches and hackneyed quips. I think part of what he's noting 'between the lines' is that there's a reason for that Chicago height to be measured in 32nds, and that even a fractional inch might cause an 'interference' (with fairly dramatic results). On the other hand, absolute vertical clearance for bilevels is likely complicated both by load weight and by sway at the top edges of the clearance diagram due to the relatively high (and presumably 'top-heavy' when loaded) carbodies. In some cases the clearance is measured relative to a curved roof ... I thought at least part of the Trailer-Jet incident Balt mentioned was due to 'square corners' more than to nominal ride height; you see this in the Philistine tunnel conversions to double-stack clearance that 'notch out the corners' just enough to clear at appropriate speed... Are the Siemens Viaggios being considered 'as built'? To me, they seemed relatively cramped upstairs for American service...
charlie hebdo But the Siemens cars are what are being considered. I notice you conveniently omitted to say what the Philly clearance was so you could utter another in your endless supply of cliches and hackneyed quips.
Since the Superliners are 16' 2", bluestreak's concern is moot.
charlie hebdoSince the Superliners are 16' 2", bluestreak's concern is moot.
Now that you mention it ... 'tis, 'tisn't it?
Were the clearances more radically restricted when the gallery cars were designed?
Overmod charlie hebdo Since the Superliners are 16' 2", bluestreak's concern is moot. Now that you mention it ... 'tis, 'tisn't it? Were the clearances more radically restricted when the gallery cars were designed?
charlie hebdo Since the Superliners are 16' 2", bluestreak's concern is moot.
I don't know about CUS when the CB&Q introduced the concept in 1950, but the Bush trainshed had to be raised at Madison St. when the C&NW introduced theirs in the mid-50s. RI at LaSalle St.? I don't know.
In breaking news: Cuomo apparently wants to fix some of the scuttling-rat issue by redeveloping 7th to 8th between 30th and 31st as a grand thing of some kind. He has gotten off on the wrong foot, though, by not bothering to tell the property owners there of his wonderful plan in advance. This may get comical fairly quick.
Overmod In breaking news: Cuomo apparently wants to fix some of the scuttling-rat issue by redeveloping 7th to 8th between 30th and 31st as a grand thing of some kind. He has gotten off on the wrong foot, though, by not bothering to tell the property owners there of his wonderful plan in advance. This may get comical fairly quick.
There are currently only two tracks tunneled under the North River, insufficient capacity for Amtrak and NJT.
Probably will take some event that renders one or both tunnels useless. Then the requisite handwringing and fingerpointing takes place, followed by the Herculean effort to make things new.
Meanwhile, NASA moves forward towards its moonshot. Could inspire a new generation.
NASA is going back to the moon? Wow, only fifty or so years since the last time.
54light15NASA is going back to the moon? Wow, only fifty or so years since the last time.
And the sad thing is that so little has changed in those years. We were supposed to have working transatmospheric vehicles in the 1980s, for heaven's sake. Even the predecessor to VentureStar (the one with the 20 J58s) would have been workable. The Russians came depressingly close to heavy industrial presence in space in that decade, and while I think it was a darn near thing we could shut them down before they did, basically nothing 'open' has been done either for space exploration or space colonization with their approaches since then.
I suppose it's OK, though. Can you imagine the 'fun' trying to run an actual commercial space operation with our current software-development paradigm of fixing or reprogramming when it breaks? The sad thing being that, in the right hands, that's as good a way to design software and hardware capabilities as it is for actual PTC... something else that's only fifty or so years overdue by now.
Overmod states--- " basically nothing 'open' has been done either for space exploration or space colonization with their approaches since then"
Pioneer 10 1973
Pioneer 11 1974-79
Voyager 1 1979-80
Voyager 2 1979-81-86
Galileo 1995-2003
Ulysses. 1992-2004
Cassini/ Huygens 2000-04-17
Huygens. 2005 ( Titan lander)
New Horizons 2007-15
Juno 2016-2021
Planned
Clipper--- Jupiter/Europa
Lucy------Asteroids
JIME------Ganymede
Dragonfly - Titan lander
MiningmanOvermod states--- " basically nothing 'open' has been done either for space exploration or space colonization with their approaches since then"
I think you missed the point that I was talking about Russia, and orbiting bases, in the 1980s. In the context of manned operations. Most of the items you've quoted are relatively small-scale remote probe missions, which added little to reliable low-cost heavy-lift capability or to development of even an orbital 'residence', to say nothing of manufacturing, capability. We have the ISS (and I suppose I should be grateful for it) but it's scarcely what I was looking forward to as the 'space dividend' after the Apollo missions.
In a recent article in "Smithsonian", it is suggested that the 'space dividend' is primarily digital, such as the development of integrated circuits, increasing use of computers in many fields, miniaturization, etc.
Overmod---Ok.. I understand.
I will add though that the information and contribution to science from these missions have been astonishing, invaluable and represent incredible advancements in space exploration. Just the knowledge we obtained from Enceladus alone is mind blowing and worth the whole thing, all of it.... and there is 10,000x more than that we got. We will be studying data obtained from Cassini for 30-40 years!
AMTRAK AND NJ TRANSIT ANNOUNCE WORK TO REFRESH TICKETED WAITING AREAAT NEW YORK PENN STATION: Amtrak and NJ TRANSIT today began theirrefresh of the Ticketed Waiting Area at New York Penn Station, theseating area for their customers at the Amtrak Concourse on the UpperLevel and 8th Avenue side of the Station. As part of the refresh,customers can expect new furniture and fixtures, including communaltables and seats with electrical and USB outlets to charge devices, anupgraded ceiling complete with new LED lighting, a family area thatwill also feature a nursing mothers’ pod, the removal of themidpoint barrier, a new information desk and a second entranceoffering easy access towards the 7th Avenue side of the Station.
"I am thrilled to see work start on significant improvements to the NJTRANSIT waiting area at New York Penn Station," said Governor PhilMurphy. "Because of increased cooperation between the State of NewJersey, NJ TRANSIT, and our partners at Amtrak, NJ TRANSIT customerswill now have the modern, state of the art, and comfortable facilitiesat Penn Station that they have deserved for so long." "The journeyis the most important part of the adventure at Amtrak, and we arerefreshing the Ticketed Waiting Area because that journey begins atthe station," said Amtrak Board Chair Tony Coscia. "We thank ourcustomers, as well as our partners at NJ TRANSIT, for their patienceand cooperation as we continue to update New York Penn Station with animproved and more modern experience." "These renovations willimprove the commute for customers who travel through Penn Station toNew York and surrounding areas," said New Jersey Department ofTransportation Commissioner Diane Gutierrez-Scaccetti. "Projectslike these encourage use of NJ TRANSIT'™s extensive rail network andunderscore our commitment to maintaining safe and comfortable transitfacilities for our customers." "NJ TRANSIT customers deserve abetter experience at New York Penn Station, and that's exactly whatthese improvements will deliver," said NJ TRANSIT President & CEOKevin Corbett. "Thanks to our renewed partnership, NJ TRANSIT isworking closely with Amtrak to put our customers first in everydecision we make. Our joint effort to improve the experience at NewYork Penn Station is a perfect example. These improvements will helpreduce overcrowding in the NJ TRANSIT waiting area, improve pedestrianflow through the station, and generally provide for a more comfortableenvironment for NJ TRANSIT customers using New York Penn Station as anorigin or destination."
The project, which includes a $7.2 milliontotal joint investment between Amtrak and NJ TRANSIT, will be completed over two phases; the first starts today, Jan.7, and the second is scheduled to start in March, after the first phase is complete. The second phase is expected to be completed in June 2020.
There will also be two temporary spaces (one for each phase of theproject) to accommodate passengers during the two constructionperiods. The first will be at the concourse near Tracks 9 and 10, andthe second will be near Tracks 13 and 14. Amtrak undertook the firststeps to refresh the Ticketed Waiting Area in 2019 when it opened aStarbucks coffee bar in the space to provide customers with theopportunity to purchase refreshments and removed the exteriorinformation booth to improve customer flow. The Ticketed Waiting Areaproject is the continuation of several improvements Amtrak has beenmaking to the Station since 2017 as it advances Amtrak’s plan tomodernize stations, infrastructure, and trains on the NortheastCorridor. Other completed work to date includes the refreshedrestrooms, upgraded air conditioning, new furniture in ClubAcela, andthe continued work of the Infrastructure Renewal program. (NJT -posted 1/07)
I recently visited the New West Concourse and toured the entire station. So many things are being ripped out and relocated.
As for the old Penn Station, only waiting passengers went upstairs to the huge, expensive, and impractical space if they did at all.
Arrivals and all LIRR passengers just went up and down the exit stairs, and after the track and lower levels were floored over in the early 20th century, they never saw the grand waiting room and concourses where MSG now stands.
Any status updates to the Rebuild Penn Station movement?
I guess the pandemic has put things on hold.
Shock Control Any status updates to the Rebuild Penn Station movement?
Here is a link from Amtrak that may be helpful:
https://nec.amtrak.com/project/moynihan-station/#:~:text=Moynihan%20Train%20Hall%20is%20expected%20to%20be%20fully%20completed%20in%202020.
The impact of COVID-19 on the plan is not clear.
Has the area of NYC's Penn Station that had been open to the sky now been built over. Looking at Google Maps, I don't see any tracks west of the Post Office.
Google Earth images show all the tracks covered up until 11th Ave, past which shows the LIRR coach yard.
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