I ask because the Phoebe Snow, EL's flagship train, ran from Hoboken, NJ to Buffalo.. why not out of Grand Central?
There is no direct route between New Jersey and Grand Central Terminal. GCT is oriented north-south and the nearest rail crossing of the Hudson River on NYC is near Albany.
In a little more detail: both the Erie and Lackawanna lines run to northeastern New Jersey, at which point they encounter a relatively wide and high volcanic dike formation (the Palisades) immediately adjacent to a wide river which by law is kept open to large ship navigation. On the other side is Manhattan, extensively developed on a ground-level grid.
Meanwhile, Grand Central is served by a railroad that runs north-south along the opposite bank of the river, then curves further east at Spuyten Duyvil to approach Manhattan from the north. Even if EL traffic could have been directed up the Northern branch and then the valley occupied by Rt 4 (subsequently massively cut away for the highway approaches from highways I-80 and I-95) across the George Washington Bridge, and the track there built to appropriate clearance and standards for EL passenger equipment of the time, there is an enormous vertical distance (as well as an effective right angle) between the approach to Grand Central and any conceivable railroad grade from the east end of the bridge; the real-estate requirements just to accommodate that would probably be greater than the whole improvement budget available to EL for decades.
A logical alternative (if you 'had' to find a way to run into GCT) would be to bridge the river at the old Piermont, where the original Erie first terminated (with fast and effective river access south to many points on Manhattan!) and where, indeed, the Tappan Zee Bridge crossed the Hudson at its namesake point of minimal current (and its replacement was designed to have a heavy-rail-capable track). A similar approach grade to that from the current River Line up to the B&A/Castleton Cutoff could be built on the east side of the river, and trains then directed south to enter Grand Central relatively easily ... with one proviso.
All trains into and out of Grand Central have, certainly since passage of the Kaufman Act, been required to operate under electric power. Sometimes this was 'bent' a bit, when trains nominally equipped with third-rail compatibility were "allowed" to operate their combustion motors (FL9s and the TurboTrain being two that periodically did this) but it was never 'normal'. In those days EL did not possess the necessary power to take its long-distance trains into Grand Central (and would almost certainly have to acquire or lease them from a railroad that did have such power -- probably the New Haven) and would have to make arrangements for engine change *somewhere* (certainly no closer than Mott Haven, I'd think) or else equip much of its power with similar arrangements to what was used on the FL9s ... not something, I think, that EL ever had either the money or the inclination to bother with.
A bit more likely would be for EL to find a way to connect with the PRR -- which is, of course precisely what was implemented in Secaucus for the "Midtown Direct" trains that are served in part by those dual-modes -- and get the same kind of permission to use Penn Station that the B&O enjoyed to 1924 and that LV used for its New York connection via Hunter Tower. That this was not done should give you some idea of EL's priorities in operating its 'name train' passenger service in that very lean time after formation of the merged railroad after 1961.
Overmod...northeastern New Jersey, at which point they encounter a relatively wide and high volcanic dike formation (the Palisades)...
Just a geo-quibble, the Palasades are actually a sill formation.
The Phoebe Snow and the longer-lasting Lake Cities could have run in and out of Grand Central, Grand Central, Chicago, that is. But they did not. The Erie, and then the Erie-Lackawanna, ran in and out of Dearborn Station. Both were just-south-of-the-Loop Chicago terminals, along with La Sall (Sp?) Street.
When I saw the title of your new thread, CGT-Chicago is what I thought you meant.
There might have been a way, at one time, to route Erie and Lackawanna trains into Penn Statioln, NY, as was done for the B&O during WWI.
Erie didn't get to Grand Central Station in Chicago for a variety of reasons. Its entry into the Chicago area was too far south (Erie also served Crown Point IN) and it needed a joint terminal road (a 20% interest in CWI) to get into Chicago. Dearborn Station was the Chicago terminal for CWI's owners plus ATSF as a tenant.
NYC certainly wasn't going to allow a competitor to use La Salle Street. NKP got there only because the Vanderbilt interests owned it for a while.
MidlandMikeJust a geo-quibble, the Palisades are actually a sill formation.
You know, this is the first time I've ever heard this, and I grew up and went to school on them for nearly 20 years. Wouldn't be the first time that conventional 'wisdom' reinforcing itself in print and fable was based on a fundamental mistake! (In partial defense... the formation does become a dike when it turns west at Haverstraw...)
It's going to be hard to unlearn 'volcanic dike' when I think about them now. That alliteration was pretty good.
All a very interesting set of railroads (Erie, Lackawanna, LV, NH, etc.) at least to a Chicagoan.
As a 7-year old boy, I recall watching some trains at the station in my aunt's town, Hohokus. Would that have been the Erie?
charlie hebdo I recall watching some trains at the station in my aunt's town, Hohokus. Would that have been the Erie?
Soytinly!
Ho-Ho-Kus is one of the more scenic Erie stations, on a long curve, with a convenient grade crossing at one end where you can set up to watch. I've spent several happy hours watching there.
One stop past Ridgewood, above where the Bergen County line rejoins the old main line.
I think her house was actually in Ridgewood, but her husband (a Princetonian) used the Ho-Ho-Kus stop as he claimed it was closer and thus more convenient. Not sure if that was really true, as he was a bit of a rake - cad - Lothario - Don Juan - letch (covering most of the old bases in one swell foop).
I think you can see some of the 'political' boundaries in the route map visible by clicking 'show map' on this page:
https://www.njtransit.com/rg/rg_servlet.srv?hdnPageAction=TrainStationLookupFrom&selStation=64#
You will be able to zoom in and see familiar detail or get to Street View by 'dragging Pegman onto the map' or whatever ...
(Incidentally, on the current version of the map, if you pan over to Waldwick on the curve, there's an interesting train.)
You Jerseyfolk are reminding me of the South Park episode!
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD70Dude You Jerseyfolk are reminding me of the South Park episode!
Don't get us started, we'll hijack this thread like you wouldn't believe!
Oh, what the hell, here you go Charlie, any of these shots look familiar?
https://www.subwaynut.com/njt/hohokus/index.html
And just a little extra, here's the station in "The 'Wood".
https://www.subwaynut.com/njt/ridgewood/index.html
The whole website's a gas, he's gone everywhere!
https://www.subwaynut.com
SD70DudeYou Jerseyfolk are reminding me of the South Park episode!
We had a long-standing conspiracy in the media to keep non-New Jerseyans unaware of the good parts of the state, and corral them to the NEC and Turnpike/GSP industrial belt so they would keep going through and not stray to spoil the goodness, or settle and run the real-estate prices up. It worked surprisingly well in the years I was there, and appears to still be working pretty well. The Jersey Shore contribution was particularly valuable.
Greatest T-shirt I ever owned said this on the chest...
"Welcome to New Jersey! Now, GO HOME!"
And don't get me (or Buddy the Cake Boss for that matter) started on "Jersey Shore!"
THOSE people weren't even from New Jersey, they were New Yorkers!
Flintlock76Greatest T-shirt I ever owned said this on the chest... "Welcome to New Jersey! Now, GO HOME!" And don't get me (or Buddy the Cake Boss for that matter) started on "Jersey Shore!" THOSE people weren't even from New Jersey, they were New Yorkers!
And besides Jersey Shore is a town in Pennsylvania!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD Flintlock76 Greatest T-shirt I ever owned said this on the chest... "Welcome to New Jersey! Now, GO HOME!" And don't get me (or Buddy the Cake Boss for that matter) started on "Jersey Shore!" THOSE people weren't even from New Jersey, they were New Yorkers! And besides Jersey Shore is a town in Pennsylvania!
Flintlock76 Greatest T-shirt I ever owned said this on the chest... "Welcome to New Jersey! Now, GO HOME!" And don't get me (or Buddy the Cake Boss for that matter) started on "Jersey Shore!" THOSE people weren't even from New Jersey, they were New Yorkers!
AND there's an unincorporated community in Prince George County VA called Jersey!
I could bring up the English Channel Island called Jersey, but that's a bit far off.
We could bring another state into the conversation. Back in antiquity, there was a song with state names scattered through it. However, I rememer only one pair=="Wjhat did Della wear, boys, what did Della wear? The answer should be obvious.
She wore her New Jersey, boys, she wore her New Jersey....
Johnny
Mike weighs in:
To which I add... definitely a Diabase Sill but watch out for the Manhattan Schist ....Miningman
A joke from the 1970's:
Question: Why does New York have all the lawyers & bankers, while New Jersey has all the refineries, chemical plants, slaughterhouses (I'm looking at you, Elizabeth, NJ), and landfills?
Answer: New Jersey had first pick.
I still smile at that.
Another Mike post from the archive. Gee, do you think it's possible we might have learned a little more about the Palisades in 100+ years?
charlie hebdo Another Mike post from the archive. Gee, do you think it's possible we might have learned a little more about the Palisades in 100+ years?
We sure have!
https://www.njpalisades.org Click on the blue highlighted parts for the fun to begin, especially the "Cliff Notes."
PS: The rocks haven't changed, even if other things have, and mind you, the Erie, the Lackawanna, the Susquehanna, and the West Shore & Buffalo (Became the New York Central) had to punch through that rock to access the Hudson River. Quite a feat.
And good one, NKP Guy! Had us rollin' on the floor!
DeggestyBack in antiquity, there was a song with state names scattered through it.
Better still, back in antiquity, there was a song with New Jersey place names scattered through it.
If Wayne doesn't know this ... and even if he does ... this ought to make him smile. Wait for the little sigh at the end as he gives up.
(Now I have to go back and finish my version for Pennsylvania, the state chock-full of inadvertently salacious place names...)
Flintlock76I could bring up the English Channel Island called Jersey, but that's a bit far off.
Also far off ... but at the same time immediately present ... is the Latin name of which "Jersey" is a corruption: Nova Cæsarea. We find it on early coinage, current college diplomas, in a variant spelling on the original deed of gift to Carteret et al.
Pity it's not still in the official seal, the way the adjectival 'Novi Eboraci' still characterizes that certain other adjacent state containing a funny-sounding name.
From Mike:
In Chicago, we needn't look far or bother with Latin for insults to toss when you are flanked by Cheeseheads and Hoosiers.
daveklepperThe Phoebe Snow and the longer-lasting Lake Cities could have run in and out of Grand Central, Grand Central, Chicago, that is.
Did we ever hear back from the OP that this was what he meant? I clearly understood him to be saying the train ran between Hoboken and Buffalo, with the implication that terminating it so close to Manhattan but not actually in Manhattan was the question.
I do still find it surprising that the Erie, or the Lackawanna, did not provide the same kind of connecting dedicated bus service, perhaps with enhanced amenities a la Pickwick, to go through the Holland Tunnel (and later the Lincoln Tunnel) to make connections to both Penn and Grand Central and to service associated points in Manhattan, Brooklyn, and Queens. B&O did this with what I consider great effectiveness... but only as a last-mile connection, and of course not past relatively early termination of all long-distance passenger service by it.
It might also be added that connecting ferry service (with the luxury buses running under or accessing the West Side elevated highway as appropriate, or limo/cab service in reserved ranks at train time) could be provided with surprisingly little impact on overall trip time. We might remember in this regard the short-lived CNJ Bullet to northeastern Pennsylvania, which involved only something like 12 minutes (actual, in timetable as part of the overall 4'30" timing) for the entire ferry trip plus transfer to the train on the New Jersey side and presumably vice versa. How cost-effective it might be to run boats this way is another matter, but they could easily be combined with other ferry service scheduling.
As an additional issue: I am quite certain that both the Erie and the Lackawanna would have been interested in the various trans-Hudson joint bridge projects, one of which I believe was still 'active' as late as 1923. As I recall, these were to share some kind of union station, either in lower Manhattan (where the action still was, prior to the West Side development and surge uptown following development and construction of rapid transit) or somewhere in the Manhattan Valley area (ended as Harlem became essentially de-gentrified after being highly developed).
I still think a combination Trans-Manhattan Expressway and multiple-track joint HSR and freight project is attractive... except that an expensively-reconstructed Riverside Drive arch bridge, and the somewhat lower IRT bridge, squarely block its most likely envelope. Note that a Union Station for such a bridge, were it to be constructed 'back in the day', would have involved elevators or motorstairs 'up' from the 125th St. NYC station, and a relatively simple connection to the Hell Gate Bridge involving about the same curvature as on the approach to the great arch bridge itself. Note that this would involve a height perhaps greater even than Suicide Curve in the Cathedral Parkway area, which is only 15 short blocks south of the projected trans-Manhattan route... or perhaps given quicker impetus to removing some of the el trackage on the various intersecting avenues earlier than it actually was.
There is a similar curve (or curve and tunnel) requirement west of the Palisades (which do not 'dip' as the Manhattan Valley does at that point) to access many of the area railroads -- but other cities had equally heroic approach requirements, for far less traffic and prestige.
Interesting, too, is that it would have given New Haven direct connecting access to all three New York 'union stations', and opened up the potential for additional optimized connections or quick run-through trains than just the ones with the Pennsylvania. And it would have provided a simple alternative for any of the remediation problems, or extra construction impediments, associated with rebuilding the ex-PRR River Tunnels or something like the part of Access to the Region's Core rebuilding of the Penn Station/Moynihan Station layout...
A perusal of the pertinent posts answered Ulrich's question about access to Manhattan and corrected Dave's error about Chicago.
charlie hebdoA perusal of the pertinent posts answered Ulrich's question about access to Manhattan and corrected Dave's error about Chicago.
Yes, but I can find no pertinent post where the OP acknowledges we answered what he asked, to his satisfaction.
charlie hebdoIn Chicago, we needn't look far or bother with Latin for insults to toss when you are flanked by Cheeseheads and Hoosiers.
That's good, but something like 'urbs in whore toe' comes pretty quickly to mind as a riposte...
(Well, you did say it would be Cheeseheads and Hoosiers who would be receiving the initial insulting...)
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