daveklepper The American people, if not the previous poster, do not expecdt the elderly and handicaipped to pay for the facilities they require in public accomodation places and venues. Long-distance trains serve a number of purposes, and the American economy would suffer if they were removed. But the primary purpose is to serve the specific elderly and handicapped who cannot fly.
The American people, if not the previous poster, do not expecdt the elderly and handicaipped to pay for the facilities they require in public accomodation places and venues.
Long-distance trains serve a number of purposes, and the American economy would suffer if they were removed. But the primary purpose is to serve the specific elderly and handicapped who cannot fly.
And why can't busses serve this purpose? They're cheaper, much more flexible (compared to trains , which only operate over fixed routes), and much more efficient than trains.
Green. Red. Black.
Regarding Nos. 29 & 30, each morning about 6, just before I open my newspapers, I check my emails and look at my app asm.transitdocs.com to see how the Lake Shore Limited is doing, as well as the Capitol.
I have no numbers, only impressions from years of looking, that the Capitol Limited is not only never in Cleveland on time, it is often shown in red (up to 2 hrs. late) and not infrequently in black (over 3 hrs. late). It is almost never shown in green, in either direction.
(Even as I write, #30 is 4 hrs. 9 min. late at Rockville, Maryland. It left Chicago only 8 min. late, but lost an hour between South Bend and Elkhart, another hour before Sandusky, and a third hour between Connellsville and Martinsburg)
charlie hebdo BaltACD charlie hebdo He reiterated his disappointment with riding the Capital Limited : slow, uncomfortable, sitting in sidings waiting for freight trains to pass, very late departure and arrival. He said if any option is available in the future, he will not use Amtrak LD trains. East or West of Pittsburgh? Or is he geographically challenged? West of Pittsburgh to Chicago and no more challenged than you. Years ago (1986?) I rode the Amtrak Broadway from NYC to Chicago. Same deal: rough, slow, multiple times sided, and six hours late to Chicago.
BaltACD charlie hebdo He reiterated his disappointment with riding the Capital Limited : slow, uncomfortable, sitting in sidings waiting for freight trains to pass, very late departure and arrival. He said if any option is available in the future, he will not use Amtrak LD trains. East or West of Pittsburgh? Or is he geographically challenged?
charlie hebdo He reiterated his disappointment with riding the Capital Limited : slow, uncomfortable, sitting in sidings waiting for freight trains to pass, very late departure and arrival. He said if any option is available in the future, he will not use Amtrak LD trains.
East or West of Pittsburgh? Or is he geographically challenged?
West of Pittsburgh to Chicago and no more challenged than you.
Years ago (1986?) I rode the Amtrak Broadway from NYC to Chicago. Same deal: rough, slow, multiple times sided, and six hours late to Chicago.
NS is doing their best to discourage Amtrak where the operate over NS. If you racall - a year or so ago NS was in virtual gridlock everywhere between Buffalo and Chicago - all from NS applying the wrong operating plan. While Amtraks may have gotten delayed 6 to 8 hours - NS freights were getting delayed one to two or more DAYS. NS has improved to some degree, how much is open to question.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
CMStPnP Wow, Amtraks Capitol Limited is among one of the fastest and most efficiently run Amtrak LD trains I have ever been on, last rode it about 2-3 years ago, Chicago to DC. Much better than the Texas Eagle.
Wow, Amtraks Capitol Limited is among one of the fastest and most efficiently run Amtrak LD trains I have ever been on, last rode it about 2-3 years ago, Chicago to DC. Much better than the Texas Eagle. I would love to have a Texas Eagle run to the standards of the Capital Limited. My Aunt rode it and liked it as well. It was ontime when we rode it. When I worked in Detroit I would drive to Toledo to take the Capitol Limited into Chicago and Change trains to Milwaukee. It was up to an hour and 20 in faster than the regular Detroit to Chicago trains due to delays and all the stops the Chicago to Detroit trains made..........which covered the time it took to drive to Toledo from Dearborn. Plus back then the Capitol had a dome car and you could board at 5 a.m. in Toledo, and watch the sun rise. Be in Chicago at 8 or 8:30. It really hauled azz on Conrail track back in the 1990's.
daveklepper you can f1y some can't Additionally, after we arrived in Inverness we were able to see the Caledonian Sleeper, an overnight rail service between a number of points in Scotland and London (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caledonian Sleeper). It was attached to a diesel locomotive lettered for the Deutsche Bahn--why the DB, I don't know.
you can f1y some can't
I spoke to my older friend (Princeton, class of '64) again. He reiterated his disappointment with riding the Capital Limited : slow, uncomfortable, sitting in sidings waiting for freight trains to pass, very late departure and arrival. He said if any option is available in the future, he will not use Amtrak LD trains.
I'm now getting into the ederly catagory and the last thing I want is to be stuck on a train for 1+ or 3 days each way while visiting my children & grandchildren in Fl and TX. Especially since I spend about 6 hours total traveling from my house to their nearest airport at a fraction of the price of a sleeper and a little less (sometimes considerably less) than coach fare.
I believe the best thing to ever happen to us LD traveling old folks is the SWA senior Want-to-Get-Away fares (still includes 2 free checked bags per person). I've been a RR fan for over 70 years but I also appreciate progress, convenience, and saving money.
daveklepperFor those who use it, it is working, far better than nothing, but not what it should be.
How very true.
Also: The elderly & the disabled are not "sick." I strongly object to the disparagement in John Privara's use of the term. The elderly & the disabled, to invoke a phrase from the movie "Boy's Town" and a song by the Hollies, ain't heavy; they're our brothers and sisters.
It's nice what you can do with a train AFTER you've already got the basics covered.
https://www.jrailpass.com/blog/luxury-trains-japan
https://www.jrailpass.com/blog/seven-stars-kyushu-luxury-train
From one of the websites:
Even before the advent of the shinkansen bullet train in 1964, luxury trains, often called “blue sleeper trains,” were a common sight across Japan. These trains were designed, not only as an efficient mode of transportation but as an experience in themselves. Getting there truly was half the fun.
In recent years, however, the use of luxury trains has largely given way to the rapid travel offered by the shinkansen. The last of the “blue trains” ceased operation in 2015. While some have called this “the end of an era,” luxury seekers are not to be disappointed by Japan’s all-new line up of first-class rail accommodations. Beginning in spring 2017, JR East and JR West launched two “cruise trains” for your traveling enjoyment.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/luxury/travel/twilight-express-mizukaze-japan-luxury-train/
(AND, narrow-gauge, no less!)
For those who use it, it is working, far better than nothing, but not what it should be. I compare it to the local city transportation during the era after they ripped up the streetcar tracks and had not even thought about light rail and/or new subways.
You could use the buses, and people who remembered the better service the streetcars gave, which they did in many cities, were called old-fashioned. But the buses were a lot better than nothing.
Victrola1Wall Street Journal "Published on Jul 16, 2019 SUBSCRIBE 1.5M Amtrak’s proposals for altering or eliminating some of its long-distance train routes, in favor of more frequent service where the population is growing, is facing opposition among those who fear rural America would suffer. WSJ’s Jason Bellini reports." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-jP4vh3z_A
The first link that reads: "Wall Street Journal" takes me to Youtube. Which is a tad misleading.... is this place turning into 4chan?
Well, regardless of what it's intent WAS, NOW it ain't workin.
And, it's NEVER going to get better the way it's organized now.
The only Federal "government agency" trying to OPERATE a customer service transportation business. Passenger trains running at 1920's speeds, with 1950's service model, serving (roughly) 2% of the incorporated areas of country, with Congress as the board of directors.
Yup, sounds like a REAL winnin' combination there...
Neither of you intended hostility, so you both can let this matter rest. Yes and yes for both matters of information.
7j43k MidlandMike Amtrak's mission is to provide a service citizens will use. Funny. I thought it was to turn a profit in national passenger service.
MidlandMike
Amtrak's mission is to provide a service citizens will use.
Funny. I thought it was to turn a profit in national passenger service.
I was not specific enough in my follow-up question to this exchange. My context was how Amtrak operates now (and coincidencly, the last 40 years or so.) Originally Amtrak's function was to operate a national passenger system, and its form was as a for-profit corperation. But there was obviously mission creep after a short time, as evidenced by the fact that it has required constant subsidy. So far Congress has considered its function was more important than its form.
Also I did not ingore or deny your answer, I simply pointed out how conditions had changed.
charlie hebdo No need to get short with Mike. I don't agree with him but his post is worthwhile and factual, as was yours.
No need to get short with Mike. I don't agree with him but his post is worthwhile and factual, as was yours.
Short?
He asked a question as if it were inconceivable that there could be an answer that he didn't want:
"Where was it ever stated that profit was an intent of Amtak's creation."
I gave him the answer.
His next response was to ignore the answer and to find evidence that made it seem irrelevant.
It may well be. But that doesn't mean that the answer to his question was in such error as to be ignored.
Ed
And we have the factualy mutually exclusive aspects of Amtrak's heritage.
7j43k MidlandMike 7j43k MidlandMike Where was it ever stated that profit was an intent of Amtrak's creation. "In creating Amtrak, Congress sought to establish a single, FOR-PROFIT corporate entity that, with INITIAL Federal assistance..." [my caps] ("Initial", by the way, means "at the beginning". It does NOT mean "until a miracle happens".) and "Amtrak was created by the RPSA as a private, for-profit, District of Columbia Corporation..." Quoted from: http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/arc/materials/legsum.pdf Ed PS: The above material is not copyrighted. Amtrak was also created "that it provide a balanced transportation system by developing, operating, and improving intercity rail passenger service. The Act also states that Amtrak will not be an agency or establishment of the United States Government. Amtrak thus is a corporation created by Congress to compete for the transportation business of the intercity traveller, to the end that the travelling public will have a choice of travel modes." https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/700.2 Congress created an entity with multiple goals that were not necessarily mutually achivable. So they provided subsidies to keep their creation's finances at break-even. You asked a question. I answered it. Ed
MidlandMike 7j43k MidlandMike Where was it ever stated that profit was an intent of Amtrak's creation. "In creating Amtrak, Congress sought to establish a single, FOR-PROFIT corporate entity that, with INITIAL Federal assistance..." [my caps] ("Initial", by the way, means "at the beginning". It does NOT mean "until a miracle happens".) and "Amtrak was created by the RPSA as a private, for-profit, District of Columbia Corporation..." Quoted from: http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/arc/materials/legsum.pdf Ed PS: The above material is not copyrighted. Amtrak was also created "that it provide a balanced transportation system by developing, operating, and improving intercity rail passenger service. The Act also states that Amtrak will not be an agency or establishment of the United States Government. Amtrak thus is a corporation created by Congress to compete for the transportation business of the intercity traveller, to the end that the travelling public will have a choice of travel modes." https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/700.2 Congress created an entity with multiple goals that were not necessarily mutually achivable. So they provided subsidies to keep their creation's finances at break-even.
7j43k MidlandMike Where was it ever stated that profit was an intent of Amtrak's creation. "In creating Amtrak, Congress sought to establish a single, FOR-PROFIT corporate entity that, with INITIAL Federal assistance..." [my caps] ("Initial", by the way, means "at the beginning". It does NOT mean "until a miracle happens".) and "Amtrak was created by the RPSA as a private, for-profit, District of Columbia Corporation..." Quoted from: http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/arc/materials/legsum.pdf Ed PS: The above material is not copyrighted.
MidlandMike Where was it ever stated that profit was an intent of Amtrak's creation.
Where was it ever stated that profit was an intent of Amtrak's creation.
"In creating Amtrak, Congress sought to establish a single, FOR-PROFIT corporate entity that, with INITIAL Federal assistance..."
[my caps]
("Initial", by the way, means "at the beginning". It does NOT mean "until a miracle happens".)
and
"Amtrak was created by the RPSA as a private, for-profit, District of Columbia Corporation..."
Quoted from:
http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/arc/materials/legsum.pdf
PS: The above material is not copyrighted.
Amtrak was also created "that it provide a balanced transportation system by developing, operating, and improving intercity rail passenger service. The Act also states that Amtrak will not be an agency or establishment of the United States Government. Amtrak thus is a corporation created by Congress to compete for the transportation business of the intercity traveller, to the end that the travelling public will have a choice of travel modes."
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/700.2
Congress created an entity with multiple goals that were not necessarily mutually achivable. So they provided subsidies to keep their creation's finances at break-even.
You asked a question. I answered it.
That's pure speculation. I would agree that there would not have been the expansion, the Lake Shore, the Montrealer, the Hartland Flyer, the Sunset to Florida, the Desert Wind, the Pioneer, and others, The contraction that occured when Carter was President would have come earlier. But a national system would have remined. But that is also pure speculation, and your speculation may be right.
CMStPnP The best description above was Amtrak was created as a private company with Congress as the majority stockholder. Private companies in receivership are allowed government subsidies under our Constitution as well as politically appointed board members and that basically is what we have with Amtrak. Amtrak was created in a state of recievership with Congress as the appointed Trustee.......another way of looking at it. The NIXON administration did not want to "Nationalize" the rail passenger system at the time and that is why Amtrak is not a government agency and that participation in Amtrak by private railroads was voluntary and not forced. Idealogically, nationalization carries the tag Socialism along with it which was unpalitable to a Republican administration. Further, Amtraks creation was viewed as both sides as only temporary. The Republicans at the time viewed Amtrak as a company would fall apart in a few years anyway and didn't give it much thought beyond it being a placebo for the public at the time so that the Administration was not seen as standing by while the entire rail passenger system just collapsed into chaos. For the Northeast at least the NEC collapse would have led to a rather nasty recession for the Northeastern states. Democrats saw Amtrak as a stopgap until the company could figure out some kind of reorganization plan to put it's finances in order and once again stand on it's own feet. Thats how I remember the history.
The best description above was Amtrak was created as a private company with Congress as the majority stockholder. Private companies in receivership are allowed government subsidies under our Constitution as well as politically appointed board members and that basically is what we have with Amtrak. Amtrak was created in a state of recievership with Congress as the appointed Trustee.......another way of looking at it. The NIXON administration did not want to "Nationalize" the rail passenger system at the time and that is why Amtrak is not a government agency and that participation in Amtrak by private railroads was voluntary and not forced. Idealogically, nationalization carries the tag Socialism along with it which was unpalitable to a Republican administration.
Further, Amtraks creation was viewed as both sides as only temporary. The Republicans at the time viewed Amtrak as a company would fall apart in a few years anyway and didn't give it much thought beyond it being a placebo for the public at the time so that the Administration was not seen as standing by while the entire rail passenger system just collapsed into chaos. For the Northeast at least the NEC collapse would have led to a rather nasty recession for the Northeastern states. Democrats saw Amtrak as a stopgap until the company could figure out some kind of reorganization plan to put it's finances in order and once again stand on it's own feet. Thats how I remember the history.
Amtrak: Welfare for old-fart train-nuts living in the past.
Which is fine by me. I take a LD train once a year.
It just too bad this pathetic organization (Amtrak) is preventing any advancement of trains in the US.
Obviously, it's going to be "fixed" by people other than us. But, until Amtrak STOPS operating trains and becomes a loot distribution system (which is what the "defense" industry, airport, highway, and waterway agencies are) this conversation will continue forever.
I wonder how long those Superliners will lasts?
Error correction: 261 workdays per year did not allow for holidays. 250 per year is better. So the corridor passenger's subsidy is reduced to $2500/year.
Again, I did not mean to doubt the figures, simply pointing out that the LDTs are far more useful than just subsidy per ride would indicate, that they benefit far more people than subsidiy per ride wouild indicate.
My station restaurant scheme would not remove food service from trains but convert loss into profit. The station restaurants would provide the food instead of Amtrak commissaries, as part of a wide take-out and home-and-business delivery service, with the economies of scale involved. Food in dining cars would both be brought onboard by some passengers boarding at stations where there are these restaurants, but mostly delivered by the restaurants. stored fozen or just refirgorated as appropriate, and microwaved and served by an attendant.
Food broght onboard by passengers would be allowed in dining cars, even including use of the microwave, only if brought from the Amtrak liscensed restaurant and brought onboard with the package unopened.
There is a separate thread devoted to this.
Providing RDC service with overnight hotel stays does not provide LD transportation for elderly and handicapped who cannot fly. I think the station restaurant scheme will solve the food-service cost problem. But reducing the subsidy for sleeping accomodations still needs some creative thinking. As a last resort, I'd go for business class plus one handicapped room in each car for the truly handicapped and his or her assistant. Lots of people who cannot fly are still able to walk without a wheelchair or walker. If the room is not taken, it would be auctioned off by the conductor to those already on the train.
I'm 87, and one morning I arrived at my desk in the Yeshiva's study hall to find a walking stick across my desk. I still don't use it.
I freuently get trip reports from people who do not post here, and one most frequent Amtrak user tells me not to distribute his reports. Charlie's friend's report is the first I've heard about Superliner seats being uncomfortable. Jack May's reports have been posted. He compared Ellis' Hoosier Land with Amtrak's SWC Chi - KC, and enjoyed both.
[quote user="CMStPnP"]
"alphas No surprise, the greatest reason for LD rail & bus financal problems was the introduction of the discount airlines which brought air fares within reach of almost all the traveling public. "
"The biggest item that doomed the passenger train was loss of the mail contract and the head end Express business. "
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