So I would dispute the Hiawatha 97% stats based on how Amtrak gathers timekeeping stats and determines if a train is late or not. My contention would be the Hiawatha Service has a lower % on time rating just based on me riding the train, it's pretty rare when I ride on the train to pull into CUS right on the mark or for that matter early same deal headed for Milwaukee.
Interesting Amtrak feels it is Federal Law that frieght railroads should give passenger trains preference when dispatching. Apparently NS disagrees.
https://media.amtrak.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/CY2017-Report-Card-%E2%80%93-FAQ-%E2%80%93-Route-Details.pdf
And here is how Amtrak actually measures on time performance for it's passenger trains......
https://www.railpassengers.org/site/assets/files/6989/otp_one_pager_v4.pdf
This was also outlined in a WisDOT rail study I posted a ways back but at least two of you missed the explanation and continue to cling to the Amtrak stats as a gold standard. So when Amtrak says 97% ontime performance..........it's actually lower........not a gold standard.
I ride the Milwaukee to Chicago trains at least twice a year and I look at my watch. Pretty rare for the train to arrive on schedule or early at CUS but not so rare to arrive within that 10 min window. So is it on time or not?
Over most of the Milwaukee to Chicago line, CP is the dispatcher not METRA including the portion South of Rondout, IL.......this is according to METRA's own reports or studies of that line.
RP is an advocacy group. Their statement is in error. Amtrak publishes official reports monthly. Six minutes late is allowed to be on-time. Airlines have fudge time too. But for you, if you don't like the factual data, you just ignore it.
Airlines usually use +/- 15 minutes as being on time.
CMStPnP I ride the Milwaukee to Chicago trains at least twice a year and I look at my watch. Pretty rare for the train to arrive on schedule or early at CUS but not so rare to arrive within that 10 min window
I ride the Milwaukee to Chicago trains at least twice a year and I look at my watch. Pretty rare for the train to arrive on schedule or early at CUS but not so rare to arrive within that 10 min window
Well that is a huge sample size.
According to the Wisconsin DOT the routes ontime in 2018 was 93%, and in 2017 it was 95%. So using those stats, it would be "pretty rare" to be on a late Hiawatha. I guess you just have bad luck, or a cheap watch.
https://wisconsindot.gov/Documents/projects/multimodal/rail/rc-rao.pdf
An "expensive model collector"
n012944 CMStPnP I ride the Milwaukee to Chicago trains at least twice a year and I look at my watch. Pretty rare for the train to arrive on schedule or early at CUS but not so rare to arrive within that 10 min window Well that is a huge sample size. According to the Wisconsin DOT the routes ontime in 2018 was 93%, and in 2017 it was 95%. So using those stats, it would be "pretty rare" to be on a late Hiawatha. I guess just have bad luck, or a cheap watch. https://wisconsindot.gov/Documents/projects/multimodal/rail/rc-rao.pdf
According to the Wisconsin DOT the routes ontime in 2018 was 93%, and in 2017 it was 95%. So using those stats, it would be "pretty rare" to be on a late Hiawatha. I guess just have bad luck, or a cheap watch.
Maybe it was a conspiracy of the "Joe Lunchpails" against him.?
n012944According to the Wisconsin DOT the routes ontime in 2018 was 93%, and in 2017 it was 95%. So using those stats, it would be "pretty rare" to be on a late Hiawatha. I guess just have bad luck, or a cheap watch.
Your using a PPT presentation so it is whenever the presentation was given probably. I have another PPT presentation by the same individual that doesn't match your 2018 figure.
BTW, They state 97% on another website which matches Amtraks %. WisDOT is sourcing the same stats but probably at a point in time versus year end for the PPT presentations, which is logical.
Probably a good argument in there not to use Powerpoint presentations or cite them for year end stats unless the presentation was given at year end.
https://rail.transportation.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/30/2018/10/Arun-Rao-Wisconsin-DOT.pdf
charlie hebdoRP is an advocacy group. Their statement is in error. Amtrak publishes official reports monthly. Six minutes late is allowed to be on-time. Airlines have fudge time too. But for you, if you don't like the factual data, you just ignore it.
What statement is in error exactly?
BackshopAirlines usually use +/- 15 minutes as being on time.
Surface Transportation Board says it should be 15 minutes for Amtrak as well per Amtrak Office of Inspector General but I believe they are using 10 min because I read that before in a rail study and RPA backs it up. Could be the rail study was off.
It is 15 minutes. The Hiawatha Service has the best on-time record of any route, exceeding even the Acela NEC target of 90%. But not good enough for you?
charlie hebdoIt is 15 minutes. The Hiawatha Service has the best on-time record of any route, exceeding even the Acela NEC target of 90%. But not good enough for you?
Correction: best on-time record of routes on Amtrak. Southwest Airlines has a better ontime record between city pairs I fly than the Hiawatha does.
Either make the schedules more realistic or increase the speed of the train to make the current schedule. Silly to say the train arrives at a fixed time and rarely have the train pull in on that time. The Europeans do a lot better and so do some of our airlines.
BTW, Amtrak Inspector Generals Report on Amtrak timekeeping and it's timekeeping database below. Some of the reports by the Inspector General make you openly wonder about the competence of Amtrak Management in securing an IT system.
https://amtrakoig.gov/sites/default/files/reports/OIG-A-2017-007.pdf
JPS1For Milwaukee, in October 2018 on-time arrivals for all carriers was 84.5 percent. On-time departures for all carriers was 87.1 percent.
I fly American Airlines to Milwaukee and it is late frequently. So I don't dispute the Milwaukee numbers and I am going to guess American is worse than Southwest on that route.
I fly Southwest DAL to MCI and usually ontime or early departure.........yes I was surprised they do actually pushback early every once in a while...not sure how legal that is but been on the plane when they did it.
Additionally, this is an easier site to use (negative numbers means it is beating the published schedule.........take a random day and compare DEPARTURES from MCI and DAL):
https://www.transtats.bts.gov/ONTIME/Departures.aspx
So it says Departures but it measures both if you look there is an elapsed time column as long as that number is 0 or negative the flight was ontime per the schedule. Positive number means it falls within the 15 min BS fudge factor or worse.
If only Amtrak had a website like this one. We could capture how often the train is delayed Milwaukee to Chicago using their computer system tracking. Then possibly drill down via conductors reports and hopefully find where the majority of the delays were. Amtrak is a mess though.
So according to Amtraks stats published above 97% of the time it falls within the 15 min late window. What I am curious about is what the percentage of time it is early or exactly per the published schedule. Pretty sure based on my riding experience it is nowhere near Southwests record you will find on the above website.
Amtrak Hiawatha is on time 93-97% but that is not good enough. You act as though you are entitled to everything be absolutely on time 100% of the time. Perhaps you should charter a private jet?
There's nothing illegal about early pushback. As long as all ticketed passengers are onboard and the captain has all his required paperwork, they are good to go.
From reading online gripes about Amtrak, lateness is a major complaint by passengers. Amtrak adds a lot of padding to try to compensate for freight train interference. Today on "Track A Train" I found 2 hours of padding from Dallas to San Antonio, 2:40 from La Junta, CO to LA, 1:50 from Jesup, GA to Miami, and 1:12 from Richmond, VA to New York City. In the "Track A Train" pull down menu are all the lateness amounts for every train and every city, and no doubt, Amtrak has a spreadsheet with all the data, which could be presented just like the airline data.
The Hiawatha schedules have little to no padding. They are pretty similar to schedules pre-1971.
Jim200From reading online gripes about Amtrak, lateness is a major complaint by passengers. Amtrak adds a lot of padding to try to compensate for freight train interference. Today on "Track A Train" I found 2 hours of padding from Dallas to San Antonio, 2:40 from La Junta, CO to LA, 1:50 from Jesup, GA to Miami, and 1:12 from Richmond, VA to New York City. In the "Track A Train" pull down menu are all the lateness amounts for every train and every city, and no doubt, Amtrak has a spreadsheet with all the data, which could be presented just like the airline data.
Anyone that thinks trains, passenger or freight, can be operated over any territory at 'running time' has several screws loose in the bellfrey! Meet and Pass time is built in to all schedules because when everything is operating on schedule, those meets and passes will take place. Eliminate the allowance for them and every train, passenger and freight, will be late.
The same 'padding' takes place in all forms of transportation - air, bus, ship. If you have a 'schedule' you build in allowances for known impedements that will affect running time between end point.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Backshop There's nothing illegal about early pushback. As long as all ticketed passengers are onboard and the captain has all his required paperwork, they are good to go.
Or she has all the paperwork! Delta featured recently a story of a female captain with her daughter as the co-pilot. The times are a changing! For the better!
BaltACDThe same 'pading' takes place in all forms of transportation - air, bus, ship. If you have a 'schedule' you build in allowances for known impedements that will affect running time between end point.
Today, Southwest Airlines has added about five to thirty minutes to dwell at an air port but I always remember on one flight I had from Chicago to Indianapolis, the plane was scheduled for twenty five minutes from arrival to departure. About 100 passengers deplaned (30 through) and another 100 boarded, luggage removed,and loaded, fuel added. I've seen this happen multiple times at KMDW Chicago Midway. Storms mess this up of course but that was one way SWA made money, by being efficient. A month later I was at O'Hare and Delta had a big 757 sitting empty at a gate and not scheduled to depart for about 90 minutes, Planes do not make money sitting at the gate.
My daughter just came back from LA and I was watching the bird on Flightaware (FA). Her plane was scheduled to come from Chicago (KMDW) via Albuquerque (KABQ) to KLAX Scheduled into KLAX @ 2:30 and dep @ 3:20.I noticed that the bird was delayed leaving KABQ. Texting her she said yup, now shown as dep @ 4:25. SWA substituted a bird that was arriving LAX on a different itinerary. She then texted me and said going to board at 3:10. FA showed the original bird still delayed. She said many passengers she talked to were connecting at Chicago. She arrived on time. The others made their connections.
On one of my ALL ABOARD AMERICA fare trips that I took to ride trains that were threatened to be cancelled, I was on the Desert Wind which was running about two hours late. My itinerary had me getting on a Thruway bus at Barstow to go to Bakersfield and my overall overnight layover was SAN JOSE. Talking to the CREW CHIEF, (remember them) I was told to stay on to LAX & I would be cared for. Sure enough, got in to LAX, waited and finally given a voucher for SWA to San Jose, directed to a Van that flew down the freeway at 70+ mph, got to the ticket counter, handed a boarding pass, got to the plane and they shut the door as I passed through it. Pushed back as I was seating myself. Got to San Jose before my Amtrak schedule. I think Amtrak lost money on me.
The Texas Eagle is padded at least 4-5 hours in either direction. On my trip home for Christmas we arrived in St. Louis heading Northbound, 2-3 hours early and sat there until scheduled departure. Trip back we arrived in Dallas 45 min early and the train sat there until scheduled departure. To me that much schedule padding is sad.
Electroliner 1935Southwest Airlines
takeoff to touch down, on average Southwests flight time to KC is 10-15 min faster from Dallas Love Field than a comparable American 737 flying from DFW Airport to Kansas City. Even the published schedules show a difference in flight time. Still scratching my head as to why that is. Does Southwest fly faster or is it able to take a faster or more direct air lane to KC because it flys out of Love Field? Anyways that is why I fly Southwest to KC, 10-15 min shorter flight compared to American. Go figure, same amount of time I am complaining about on the Hiawatha for roughly the same duration trip (give or take 20-25 min). Southwest gets my money for being faster (and faster to recover vs American if there are T-Storms in Dallas).
CMStPnP The Texas Eagle is padded at least 4-5 hours in either direction. On my trip home for Christmas we arrived in St. Louis heading Northbound, 2-3 hours early and sat there until scheduled departure. Trip back we arrived in Dallas 45 min early and the train sat there until scheduled departure. To me that much schedule padding is sad.
To me that is the absence of normal conflicting freight traffic during a holiday period - not padding. The absence of freight traffic and its revenue is what is sad.
I have no idea as to how much freight traffic was being handled that morning, but 2 1/2 years ago, I rode the Texas Eagle from Los Angeles to Chicago. I woke not long after we reached St. Louis by 5:00 the morning. We elft on time--and lost time because we used the former C&EI route to Chicago, and had at least one long wait for a freight.
Johnny
Airline block times aren't takeoff to touchdown. They are scheduled gate to gate. DFW is a much larger and busier airport. That leads to longer taxi times and lines for takeoff.
As posted earlier airlines can push back early if airplane full or all ticketed passengers are on board. However a limitation on the filed flight plan may eliminate any more than 20 minute early departures. With flow control procedures at most major airports the airline may get times for pushbacks of all flights.
One creavat is if the flight is slated for carrying post office material departure before posted would need post office clearances that are not easily gotten . If bag bins are full then postal clearances not needed. Used to have night trip from Nashville that would board passengers and would fill up with "green mail" and leave early.
charlie hebdo The Hiawatha schedules have little to no padding. They are pretty similar to schedules pre-1971.
This whole thing about "on-time" arrivals (in all modes of travel) being within 5 or 10 or 15 minutes of the posted time kinda bugs me. I guess I'm too "old school", because to me "on time" means "on time"--not 1 minute late, not 5 minutes, and certainly not 15 minutes. What about 30 minutes? How about an hour? At what point does 'on time' become meaningless?
Maybe timetables should have a disclaimer on them similar to what you see in your car's side mirrors, "Times listed in this schedule are later than they appear".
zardoz charlie hebdo The Hiawatha schedules have little to no padding. They are pretty similar to schedules pre-1971. I live about 1/2 mile east of the CP main in Pleasant Prairie, and most of the Hiawatha's are so punctual that I can reset my mental clock when I hear the crossing horns. This whole thing about "on-time" arrivals (in all modes of travel) being within 5 or 10 or 15 minutes of the posted time kinda bugs me. I guess I'm too "old school", because to me "on time" means "on time"--not 1 minute late, not 5 minutes, and certainly not 15 minutes. What about 30 minutes? How about an hour? At what point does 'on time' become meaningless? Maybe timetables should have a disclaimer on them similar to what you see in your car's side mirrors, "Times listed in this schedule are later than they appear".
I live about 1/2 mile east of the CP main in Pleasant Prairie, and most of the Hiawatha's are so punctual that I can reset my mental clock when I hear the crossing horns.
This is all account of the contracts between the freight carriers and the passenger carriers. While the passenger carriers (Amtrak and commuter carriers) may specify ON TIME - the freight carrier will come back with what is the 'tolerance level'.
Those who deal with manufacturered products understand that all 'parts' are manufacturered with a + or - tolerance - it may be specified in thousandths of an inch or even finer - but there is a tolerance (there are other areas of tolerance than just distance measurement).
The freight carriers insist on the tolerance or they won't sign the contracts for the passenger carriers to operate. Simple business negotiations.
BaltACD zardoz charlie hebdo The Hiawatha schedules have little to no padding. They are pretty similar to schedules pre-1971. I live about 1/2 mile east of the CP main in Pleasant Prairie, and most of the Hiawatha's are so punctual that I can reset my mental clock when I hear the crossing horns. This whole thing about "on-time" arrivals (in all modes of travel) being within 5 or 10 or 15 minutes of the posted time kinda bugs me. I guess I'm too "old school", because to me "on time" means "on time"--not 1 minute late, not 5 minutes, and certainly not 15 minutes. What about 30 minutes? How about an hour? At what point does 'on time' become meaningless? Maybe timetables should have a disclaimer on them similar to what you see in your car's side mirrors, "Times listed in this schedule are later than they appear". This is all account of the contracts between the freight carriers and the passenger carriers. While the passenger carriers (Amtrak and commuter carriers) may specify ON TIME - the freight carrier will come back with what is the 'tolerance level'. Those who deal with manufacturered products understand that all 'parts' are manufacturered with a + or - tolerance - it may be specified in thousandths of an inch or even finer - but there is a tolerance (there are other areas of tolerance than just distance measurement). The freight carriers insist on the tolerance or they won't sign the contracts for the passenger carriers to operate. Simple business negotiations.
Well said! The concept of tolerance is fairly analogous to the standard error of measurement in statistics, used in so many fields. The smaller, the better, but in most applications it is certainly not zero. The OW seems to have unrealistic expectations.
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