charlie hebdo Paul of Covington bo-Jack If it was a matter of illiteracy, why did the waiters read back the order to the customer? I suggested illiteracy as a possibilty for the custom, and I'm not going to defend it, but in the early days of diner service illiteracy was probably fairly common, and reading the order back may not have been required until many years later. We just don't know. Since you have offered no evidence to support your contention and even say we [you] don't know, what motivation is there for your saying this?
Paul of Covington bo-Jack If it was a matter of illiteracy, why did the waiters read back the order to the customer? I suggested illiteracy as a possibilty for the custom, and I'm not going to defend it, but in the early days of diner service illiteracy was probably fairly common, and reading the order back may not have been required until many years later. We just don't know.
bo-Jack If it was a matter of illiteracy, why did the waiters read back the order to the customer?
I suggested illiteracy as a possibilty for the custom, and I'm not going to defend it, but in the early days of diner service illiteracy was probably fairly common, and reading the order back may not have been required until many years later. We just don't know.
Since you have offered no evidence to support your contention and even say we [you] don't know, what motivation is there for your saying this?
I don't think of what I said as a contention. I was offering a suggestion as a possible reason for the practice. If anyone here knows, we need to hear from him or her, and those of us who don't know can shut up. I'm not in the mood for a squabble, so I'm out.
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"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
If we rephrase what has been developed: the claim is that, in the relatively early days of Pullman dining-car service, the HEAD waiter would pick up the check and 'read it back to the customer' (in part to allow potentially illiterate other members of the 'wait staff' to understand it without embarrassment). This certainly seems like a step in the 'ritual' that would be unnecessary for written checks -- the check as written complete with its table number would be run to the kitchen, the order prepared, and even illiterate staff could be told, or be familiar, with table location 'by number' for service.
I find this interesting as a potential method for employing the diligent, but uneducated, in the great opportunity posed by working on a Pullman car in that era. Whether or not it's 'true' (or has had scholarly sociological commentary on it -- yes, if there's any historical justification it would make a nifty thesis for someone -- is of course important, but I think there is at least plausibility for this specific detail of Pullman 'culture' as retained in later practice to be an accommodation.
Two points to make: If it was a matter of illiteracy, why did the waiters read back the order to the customer? Remember, during the Jim Crow era, the railroads and Pullman company got the elite members of the Black community for their on-board passenger service positions.
Dining cars were limited in seating capacity (36 to 48) and therefore had to turn the tables over quickly in order to provide meal service quickly to perhaps a few hundred passengers. There could be no dawdling as the customer indecisively asked questions or otherwise wasted the waiter's time (He had to get back to the kitchen to get someone else's order that was probably coming to the finish area.). This was also a factor in the way the kitchen operated: much prep work for a particular meal being done between meals or at the commisary of origin, sometimes items that could be served almost immediately were marked on the menu. Even on Amtrak (on those dining cars where meals are still prepared on-board) the courses come out of the kitchen rapidly in order to turn the tables over.
This happened on all the trips I took with parents and friends pre-Amtrak. Dad always said it was because many of the waiters were former slaves and did not know how to read or write. Maitre'd always gave Dad a menu sheet and when it was filled out he handed it back to maitre'd who would read it to the waiter. Dad did ask one time and was told that it was true, an old tradition handed down even though in 50's and 60's the waiters could read and write. Amtrak did away with this practice. Mom remember it happening when she rode trains too Just like we saw cars in the South with partitions halfway back, Dad said they were "Jim Crow" cars, no longer used for that reason. Frisco had them too for when they traveled south. Those older cars also had fans in the car, to be used in the days before a/c, even though the cars we rode had it. I do remember seeing drinking fountains at McComb, MS station in 1958 that had signs, one for whites and one for colored. That was a shock to see as St. Louis did not have that.
Read the other comments with interest, I do sign my name and room # when I am traveling first class on Amtrak but that is it. Dad worked with some guys in 60's who did not know how to read or write, they were track workers with MOW in the yards and would come to office to get their paychecks. Everyone had to sign a receipt and some would only mark it with an X. Every RR I was on, B&O, IC, PRR, NYC, C of G, ACL, UP, SP, Wabash all required us to fill out a menu list. Dad did it for us but when I traveled with friends, we each got our own slip to fill out. They always seated Pullman passengers first, we had to stand and wait our turn in a hot narrow corridor located right next to kitchen. And we always had someone seated with us, that is just the way it was done and still is on Amtrak. I do remember a creative waiter on SW Chief, we had him going west and coming back east from Grand Canyon He was older and had worked for Santa Fe, I ordered a glass of milk and he held the glass in one hand and poured from a carton that was at least a foot above the glass and never spilled a drop and we were moving. I missed getting a pic of that.
RailPlanner I too remember writing out diner orders on pre-amtrak B& O, C&O, and Pennsy I also remember doing it on Amtrak...however this spring (2019) on the "contemporary dining experience" on the Capitol LTD. I was chastised by the attendant for writing my order as he told me that was HIS job...I was to present my sleeping car check-in card and verblly tellhim which of the 3 boxed choices I wanted.
I too remember writing out diner orders on pre-amtrak B& O, C&O, and Pennsy I also remember doing it on Amtrak...however this spring (2019) on the "contemporary dining experience" on the Capitol LTD. I was chastised by the attendant for writing my order as he told me that was HIS job...I was to present my sleeping car check-in card and verblly tellhim which of the 3 boxed choices I wanted.
It's interesting that you had to present printed evidence of being a sleeping car passenger; I have only had to write car number and room designation--and when on the Cardinal this spring, .I had only to indicate which room I was in, since there was only one sleeper on the train--the attendant wrote the car number in.
Johnny
Paul of Covington Electroliner 1935 I keep rememboring, Rodney King saying "CAN'T WE JUST GET ALONG" Come on guy's, give it a rest. Youi don't HAVE to have the last word. Now you've stepped in it ... How long can we keep this up?
Electroliner 1935 I keep rememboring, Rodney King saying "CAN'T WE JUST GET ALONG" Come on guy's, give it a rest. Youi don't HAVE to have the last word.
I keep rememboring, Rodney King saying "CAN'T WE JUST GET ALONG"
Come on guy's, give it a rest. Youi don't HAVE to have the last word.
Now you've stepped in it. I was going to warn you that someone would claim a misquote, but I decided to check it out first. Though the captions have the word "just", I just don't hear it. There is a little hesitation there, but I don't hear the word "just". Granted, my hearing in my old age is not what it used to be, but I hear the rest of it OK. How long can we keep this up?
OvermodIn either case, when charlie hebdo used it, it's pretty clear what he meant (and amusing in context) and far from a sharp stick in even a grammar Nazi's eye.
This discussion would never have happened had charlie not felt the need to point out a spelling error in the thread title, incorrectly I might add.One should have their 'ducks in a row' so to speak before they criticize (incorrectly) others.
Overmod Paul of Covington All this discussion of [sic], [sic], (sic), &c. is fun, but compared to the slaughter of grammar and spelling of regular english...? "English" is always capitalized! And the ampersand is a ligature which counts as italic so you should have used an italic 'c' after it! You should have been vetted better before participating in the slow-motion train wreck this thread has become!
Paul of Covington All this discussion of [sic], [sic], (sic), &c. is fun, but compared to the slaughter of grammar and spelling of regular english...?
"English" is always capitalized! And the ampersand is a ligature which counts as italic so you should have used an italic 'c' after it! You should have been vetted better before participating in the slow-motion train wreck this thread has become!
+1!!!
All this discussion of [sic], [sic], (sic), &c. is fun, but compared to the slaughter of grammar and spelling of regular english...?
In hopes of keeping the urea in the forum discussions squarely in DEF
charlie hebdosic is also from the Latin sicut = just as. Should not be italicized since it has become a part of our language.
Brings up another can-o-worms grammar-pedant controversy.
The use of 'sic' seems more like the use of a foreign word or phrase that is normally italicized in streamed text (like 'ad hoc' or 'pro rata') than a common unitalicized foreign-word abbreviation (the poster child probably being "etc." which no one pronounces as anything but 'et cetera' even though slaughtering other Latin-derived terms like "Ibid" (yes, I'm guilty of this).
I'm tempted to introduce an artificial distinction between [sic] or [sic] as a formal indication of original source material and (sic) as calling attention to something in the quoted phrase.
In either case, when charlie hebdo used it, it's pretty clear what he meant (and amusing in context) and far from a sharp stick in even a grammar Nazi's eye.
BaltACDHow high is the urine Momma! Four feet high and rising.
Now we have another 'one'. Desk jockey chimes in.
243129 charlie hebdo 243129 Whatever makes you happy Chuck Perhaps in your new life you could benefit from training and supervision from Overmod and even myself. Perhaps in your 'new life' you could acquire some maturity.
charlie hebdo 243129 Whatever makes you happy Chuck Perhaps in your new life you could benefit from training and supervision from Overmod and even myself.
243129 Whatever makes you happy Chuck
Whatever makes you happy Chuck
Perhaps in your new life you could benefit from training and supervision from Overmod and even myself.
Perhaps in your 'new life' you could acquire some maturity.
How high is the urine Momma! Four feet high and rising.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I know my dad enjoyed his job and was quite good at it keeping track of each "space' as it was refered to with a little Pullman pencil. Sounds like a romantic job but consider he was up for every stop to off load or take a new customer aboard. He was gone every other five days so we always joked that I only knew him for half of my early life, lots of missed birthdays, Christmas and so forth. He was not a rail fan as I don't think he saw any plaesure in it, but always accomidated me in my pursiut. I was remided of his shinny shouldered uniform jackets as we brushed side to side in the sleeper walk ways of the Canadian last fall.
243129 charlie hebdo After all, dinning (sic!) cars were really noisy. Tsk, tsk. Sic is usually italicized and always surrounded by brackets to indicate that it was not part of the original. FYI [sic] "Aways clean your own house first, before criticizing your neighbor's house."
charlie hebdo After all, dinning (sic!) cars were really noisy.
Tsk, tsk. Sic is usually italicized and always surrounded by brackets to indicate that it was not part of the original. FYI [sic]
"Aways clean your own house first, before criticizing your neighbor's house."
"After all, dinning (sic!) cars were really noisy."
You should heed your own advice, Joe? The sorta humorous, play-on-words sentence in which I used the Latin term in question was my totally own except for the misused word 'dinning' and was not the original, so parentheses are quite correct, not brackets.
charlie hebdo poor training, supervision and vetting?
Now you're getting it!
sic is also from the Latin sicut = just as. Should not be italicized since it has become a part of our language. Parentheses have become nearly interchangable in usage, and the exclamation mark is also common.
In any case, Joe appears to have totally missed the point of my comment regarding those noisy 'dinning' cars. I suppose my error is once more a function, ad nauseam, of poor training, supervision and vetting?
243129Tsk, tsk. Sic is usually italicized ...
... and never capitalized; it is short for a Latin phrase (sic erat scriptum) and should have been put in quotes when mentioned in a sentence.
Apparently an enormous number of people use 'sic' in parens rather than the 'correct' square brackets as noted. I am of course opposed to tolerating this, but it does have to be said you really can't mistake what it is meant to mean...
I confess I never appended the exclamation point, but it is not semantically wrong as far as I can tell... and i can see the value in emphasizing a particularly apt malapropism or egregious Freudian slip when called out.
charlie hebdoAfter all, dinning (sic!) cars were really noisy.
GERALD L MCFARLANE JR TandP RR All Wrong: I wondered about this as a college student and then figured it out. It's purely a safety issue. Due to the dinning car swaying and moving, the waiter could easily A.) stab the customer in the neck with the pencil during a particularly hard jolt and B.) or lose his balance and fall into the customer's lap [if he's holding the card with one hand, and writing with the other, the waiter will surly lose his balance. We all use our hands for balance, not writing food orders. You don't need to use your hand for balance when walking on a moving train, all you have to do is walk with your feet slightly farther apart than normal, that keeps you balanced as well. Also, if you ever noticed, they sometimes actually lean up against the table with their legs at very imperctible angle to help them stand up. Safety has nothing to do with it at all.
TandP RR All Wrong: I wondered about this as a college student and then figured it out. It's purely a safety issue. Due to the dinning car swaying and moving, the waiter could easily A.) stab the customer in the neck with the pencil during a particularly hard jolt and B.) or lose his balance and fall into the customer's lap [if he's holding the card with one hand, and writing with the other, the waiter will surly lose his balance. We all use our hands for balance, not writing food orders.
All Wrong: I wondered about this as a college student and then figured it out. It's purely a safety issue. Due to the dinning car swaying and moving, the waiter could easily A.) stab the customer in the neck with the pencil during a particularly hard jolt and B.) or lose his balance and fall into the customer's lap [if he's holding the card with one hand, and writing with the other, the waiter will surly lose his balance. We all use our hands for balance, not writing food orders.
You don't need to use your hand for balance when walking on a moving train, all you have to do is walk with your feet slightly farther apart than normal, that keeps you balanced as well. Also, if you ever noticed, they sometimes actually lean up against the table with their legs at very imperctible angle to help them stand up. Safety has nothing to do with it at all.
Don't forget waiters carry large trays with the orders for each table from the kitchen on the diner to the table being served - carrying various hot and or liquid items that could be more easily spilled than any waiter stabbing someone with a pencil or pen accidently.
TandP RR All Wrong: I wondered about this as a college student and then figured it out. It's purely a safety issue. Due to the dinning car swaying and moving, the waiter could easily A.) stab the customer in the neck with the pencil during a particularly hard jolt and B.) or lose his balance and fall into the customer's lap [if he's holding the card with one hand, and writing with the other, the waiter will surly lose his balance. We all use our hands for balance, not writing food orders.]
All Wrong: I wondered about this as a college student and then figured it out. It's purely a safety issue. Due to the dinning car swaying and moving, the waiter could easily A.) stab the customer in the neck with the pencil during a particularly hard jolt and B.) or lose his balance and fall into the customer's lap [if he's holding the card with one hand, and writing with the other, the waiter will surly lose his balance. We all use our hands for balance, not writing food orders.]
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